Testing 6.5 Swede HV loading with shotgun filler

[Larry Gibson]

AA4350 Powder tests;

Starmetal says that 31 gr of AA4350 gave him 2380 fps or so out of his M38 with the Kurtz bullet. So I decided to work around that. Also having been chastised by 45 2.1 in Test 1 for “jumping around” by working in .5 gr increments I decided to search for the so called “sweet spot” by testing loads in .2 gr increments from 30 gr to 32 gr of AA4350. I don’t really think that is “jumping” too much. I shot 5 shot test groups of each powder charge increment.

The results of the tests are:
(Listed as; powder charge with the average velocity/SD/ES/psi/group size under each powder charge)

30 gr
2051 fps/24/56/35,300/2.6”

30.2 gr
2045 fps/14/35/34,600/2.58”

30.4 gr
2053 fps/6/16/35,100/6.7”

30.6 gr
2082 fps/13/35/35,400/3.14”

30.8 gr
2099 fps/20/42/36,300/4.7”

31 gr
2085 fps/11/27/35,200/3.43”

31.2 gr
2113 fps/12/31/36,900/2.8”

31.4 gr
2110 fps/8/20/36,300/3.3”

31.6 gr
2115 fps/10/22/36,200/6.6”

31.8 gr
2127 fps/17/41/36,400/6”

32 gr
2141 fps/16/34/37,000/2.85”

Accuracy;

Noting the picture of the target groups does anyone see a “sweet spot” there because I don’t. One might suspect that the 31.4 gr load might hold promises based on 4 of the 5 shots being in a little under 1.1” group. The 5th shot “flyer” stretches it out to 3.3”. However, one thing I learned a long time ago was that “called shots” tell us about our own shooting and “flyers” tell us something about the load. Just to be sure I loaded up 5 more and sure enough they grouped into 3.1”. The nice 4 shot group was just a matter of random selection. While we may discount “called shots” we should not discount “flyers” because they do indeed tell us something.

HV ?;

Another thing worth noting is that the velocity of the 31 gr load is some 200 fps less than the reported velocity that starmetal got using the same bullet with the same lube and the same powder. Now before anyone wants to question the Oehler M43 remember that I always fire a “reference” load when I set it up. The “reference ammo” test was well within normal parameters. So is my M38 barrel “slow”? I ran that 31 gr load through both of my M38s and the Mex M98 with the Swede M38 barrel on it. I also set up my M35P in tandem with the M43. The velocities of both were consistent and the test M38 proved to be the fastest of the 3 rifles. All 3 average velocities were within 12 fps of one another. One would not think there would be that much variation between different lots of a current powder such as AA4350. At least I’ve not found anywhere near 200 fps variance between different lots of the same powder and I’ve been chronographing loads since ’75. I guess stranger things have happened.

Looks like 32 gr got within 140 fps or so of starmetal’s reported velocity. There was a 90 fps gain with 2 gr of AA4350 between 30 and 32 gr. Looks like it may take upwards of 34 to 34.5 gr of AA4350 to duplicate the target velocity of starmetal’s 31 gr load.

AA4350 Pressures;

All pressure traces were smooth with no indication of any pressure spikes. Pressures increased in an expected manner given only a 2 gr increase in powder in .2 gr increments over the 50 round test with AA4350 using the Original buffer as a filler. I did not experience a single pressure sign, particularly any semblance of hard bolt lift. Also there was no indication that the Original buffer compressed into a glob (or however 45 2.1 described it) as all 90 rounds fired exhibited a large “puff” of the filler material between the muzzle and the start screen 15’ away. Not only was the puff of filler readily discernable to me the shooter but several other shooters commented on it.

So where to go next with AA4350? I’m loading up another test series with 32 to 34 gr of AA4350 to at least get close to starmetal’s reported velocity of around 2380 fps because 30 – 31 gr, as 45 2.1 says to use, doesn’t get me there. Once I get close to that velocity if any load looks “sweet” I will change lubes and if that doesn’t work, I will go to a harder alloy.

[Larry Gibson]

6.5 Swede HV: Test 2 with 3100 powder;

Test parameters remained the same;

45 2.1 writes; “How much powder do you use? Fill the fire formed sized (I assumed he meant neck sized) case up to within a dimes thickness of where the body meets the shoulder of the case. Measure that amount and check it against the loading data you have looked at. It should be on the low side of published data, at least for the powders shown. This is where you adjust the load varying the powder charge from that point up to the base of the shoulder.”

I checked both Accurate Arms data and Lee’s 2nd Edition manual for data with 130 gr jacketed bullets, both of which had data for 3100 powder in the 6.5 Swede. I didn’t find any cast bullet data using 3100. Both sources used 47 gr as a maximum with the usual lower American psi of 41,400. Filling 3 of my U 42 fire formed and neck sized cases up to within a dimes thickness of where the body meets the shoulder of the case I found 43.4 gr of 3100 to fill the bill. Checked against the loading data that seemed to be on the low side but just to be sure I dropped back down to 41.9 gr and worked back up to 44.7 gr in .3 gr increments. Somewhere way in the back of my brain a voice was saying; “ya know Larry that still is a lot of powder!” But who am I to argue against the learned advice of 45 2.1? So I chose to ignore what my own experience told me and go with 45 2.1’s advice. Thus 50 test rounds were loaded in .3 gr increments from 41.9 gr to 44.7 gr with the Original Buffer used as a filler. The filler was added also as per 45 2.1’s instructions. A photo of the completed loading tray with cases ready for bullet seating is below.

I also had one individual PM me saying 3100 powder was very slow burning and you could fill the case, seat any cast bullet and get good accuracy. Well 50 gr of 3100 gave 100% and I had 3 extra cases ready to load so I filled ‘em up and seated a 131 gr Kurtz (fully dressed) in them.

3100 Powder tests;

I’m going to save you all the pain of the gruesome details. I fired the first 6 loads of 41.9 gr through the “dimes thickness” load of 43.4 gr of 3100 and then quit the test. This load was totally erratic and extremely inaccurate. To give you an idea I’ll list the data of the first test group and the last one.

41.9 gr
2536 fps/35/88/50,000 psi

43.4 gr
2531 fps/37/83/51,100 psi

That’s a 2.5 gr in crease in powder with no increase in velocity but a definite increase in pressure. The additional loads in between were just as erratic.

Accuracy;

What accuracy? I was using a target frame 24” wide and 36” tall. Of the 30 test shots fired at it only 1 shot hit the target frame. From the bullet impacts all around the target frame it appeared the accuracy was around 4 - 6 foot groups.

HV;

Well there was definitely what I consider HV there! Can’t say the old M38 has a slow barrel with that one! Problem is, all that HV isn’t worth a damn with minute of berm accuracy.

3100 Pressures;

Yup, the pressure was definitely there. I should have listened to my own experience instead of going with what 45 2.1 said to do.

If you want to really get HV and pressure then go with the “fill ‘er up” advice. The 50 gr load of 3100 (no filler because it was 100% loading density) with the 131 gr Kurtz bullet will get you 2840 fps or so and 60,400 psi in the 6.5 Swede. Guess my advice is a relearned lesson; “ take anyone’s loading advice with a grain of salt, especially if a little voice is saying; “that’s a lot of powder!”

I’ll probably drop down to 32 to 36 gr of 3100 and try it again.

[Larry Gibson]

That ends Test 2 but does not end the testing. The testing will continue until I can call it one way or the other. I also have a couple side bar tests to run for those assisting me. I’m sure starmetal and 45 2.1 will take great pains and burn up more pages of my thread telling all what I am doing wrong and how I won’t succeed. They have the need to do that simply because it’s their claim that, so far, has not born fruit to anyone except them. They should perhaps remember that I am following their instructions and their methods. I have received numerous PMs questioning how starmetal managed the same outstanding accuracy with cast bullets in every rifle he seems to touch at HV before he discovered 45 2.1’s Original buffer technique. They question how he now is using that technique with the Original buffer to shoot “bug hole” groups out of most any rifle at HV. I do not know. I seem to be in the same boat as the rest of you. However, I shall continue with my efforts to succeed regardless of their criticism.

To starmetal and 45 2.1; I started this thread with the intention of following your advice and make every effort to prove you correct. I have received donations of moulds, primers, GCs and lube from several individuals (I sincerely thank them). I have not received any bullets from starmetal to test. I am making every effort to follow your methods and instructions to the “T”. If you have a reasonable question I will answer or explain. If you have a reasonable suggestion I will incorporate it into my tests. I will, in fact, appreciate constructive criticism. Please be civil so we may proceed in a scientific manner and prove you correct.

Larry Gibson

[swheeler]

Larry; I want to thank you for your time to conduct this test. The shotgun pattern groups are a disappointment, but I cannot say totally unexpected. The pressure measurements for 3100 powder are a little high for my taste, especially in a 100 year old small ring mauser, and using formed brass of a too small body diameter to start with. The "sage' advice you were given about loading AA3100 and psb looks to have the potential for serious injury to shooter or rifle, I would not feel comfortable using it! Remember a member here has posted a picture of 06 formed brass that looked to me to be destroyed from PRESSURE, but it was diagnosed as a "bad" piece of brass. 06 brass that has been fireformed/STRETCHED and loaded several times then subjected to 60K psi will do that. My biggest concerns when this all started on another thread was is the accuracy/velocity reported accurate and are there safety concerns when following some of this "sage" advice, thank you for answering with your testing so far. I agree with you about "the little man that sets on my shoulder" take his advice OVER ALL OTHERS! Your pressure testing is much appreciated and hopefully has saved someone some grief. A man learns to seperate oats from recycled oats, I'll buy oats from you anytime.
Scot

[Pat I.]

Larry,

If you're up to a little side test while you're playing around I wonder if you'd do another one for me.

When I was shooting my 6.5 PPC with a 170 gr quenched WW bullet in an 8 twist Shilen I got my best accuracy using 24 grs of 4350 and a P-Wad for about 1750 fps with WSR primers and the one band and check shank filled with LBT Blue. The gun wasn't a consistant 1/2 inch barn burner like happens in some places but it shot pretty well. If I was to send you some P-wads would you try them in the Swede with around 30 grs of 4350? For some reason the P-wad was neccessary although I don't know why and won't make any guesses. If you are short on or don't have any Blue left I'll send you some of that too. I realize that this test has nothing to do with HV but I think for the most part people are a lot happier with accuracy than speed.

The only thing I'd suggest for further testing, although I really hate to do it, is that if you're going to continue using the LBT lube try filling at least half the grooves you have filled. It might make a difference. The only thing I've ever found wrong with Blue, and I've used it a lot in a lot of different things, is that people use a lot more than they actually need. Are you seeing any specs of lube on your target? Nice test and report by the way.

[StarMetal]

Larry,

No harsh words from me. I think you are getting there. I think I may be able to explain why my velocity is higher with the 4350. In these new recent post here you stated my rifle as a M38. It's not the shorter barreled M38. It's the plain old longer barrel M96. The longer barrel should pick up some more velocity, not sure how much.

Two things I ignore on 45 2.1's advice on loading. One, I don't follow his loading to a dime's thickness of the body/shoulder junction. You found that out with the 3100 load. I did too. Larry there's only a few powders you can "almost" fill that case up with and not have the very high velocity and pressure and those are 860 and 5010 surplus. So that theory I find wrong...and that's not from you. Now go back and look at the loads and targets I've posted so far. You will see a patter and that is the powder charges seem to hover in the 30 some grain bracket. I feel anymore then that and it's too much. Since the original sweet spot with the 4350 I've added Reloader 22, N160, and IMR 7828 to my list of powder. All three of them showed a sweet spot, but particularly the 7828. I'm really beginning to like that powder and it shows promise in other calibers as well.

I have a question, how many rifles have you tested so far? Am I right thinking two? I know the M38, but what's the barrel length on your MexSwede?

Another area I differ from 45 2.1 is bullet tension and crimp type. I don't necessarily set my tension, I use a .266 expander and my bullets are .268. According to 45 2.1 I don't run as close clearance in the neck thickness as he does either. My groove on my Swede is .267 so thus why I size my bullets at .268. My rifle can chamber a bullet such sized.

You are correct in my first sweet spot load of 4350 I did lube my bullets with LBT Blue. Since then, and duplicating the 4350 load, my lube has been my own beeswax, Castor oil, Ivory soap lube. After all the shooting I've done I'm beginning to think beeswax/alox may suffice.

If your groove on your MexSwede is .267 (not saying it is, just theorizing) I cannot see ever getting HV and accuracy from it if the bullet has to be sized to .266. I sure would like to see how it would perform if it could shoot a .268 bullet.

On OAL I don't shoot for that. I go for two things. One I seat according to how the cartridge loads into the rifle. When closing my bolt down I feel for slight resistance of the bullet nose seating into the throat cone. I do not cam down the bolt to force the nose into the rifling leade.

Now I named that there were two things I differ from 45 2.1 in. The second one is my crimp. He uses some kind of LEE crimper (a rifle taper crimp) that LEE doesn't make anymore. I use the LEE Factory Crimp. Now 45 2.1 stated why he doesn't like the LFCD and that is because it mars, indents, ruin, however you wish to look at it, the case mouth. Yes it does leave a mark there but I've found that does no damage and I will loose a case to a neck split long before that crimp mark does any harm.

There is more then one way to skin a cat and I've proved that with my loads that differ in many areas to 45 2.1. One biggie is the use of 4350 powder which he go on me about. So when you do get that little voice in the back of your head do follow it and do go outside the set parameters.

Scot,

You've become a protagonist here and I don't know why. First that blown case was exactly that, a bad case. I've seen worked a lot with that IMR 7828 powder and it's a good powder and safe. The only time I have found things to get touchy is when using a faster powder then 45 2.1 said and that specifically the 4350. That is with buffer of course. Larry had a hot load with 3100. It had more powder in it then it should have. ANY rifle cartridge will have high pressure when too much powder is used. You know nothing about what is being done here with the Swede and you contribute zero to it except to run your negative mouth. You also thank Larry for everything he does like you're his Nancy Pelosi.

Larry will do this and I'll help him. He's loading 100 percent the way 45 2.1 told him. I did not, I went outside the box and I'm getting results. Now lots of things 45 2.1 told me I'm doing and many things he said would or would not happen came true. Let me clear up that dime thickest loading level. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO FOLLOW THAT TO THE TEE!!!!! 45 2.1 told me that. Use that little voice in your head. Geesh, would you go to the dime thickness with say 4198? I wouldn't. 45 2.1 said stick with the slow powders like 3100 and 4831. I didn't have those at first, still don't have the 3100, thus why I bought 7828, R22, and N160. I have so far found my lot of 4831 terrible in everything I've tried it which means other calibers too.

Larry next time you're in my area you are stopping by and you are shooting my rifle and my loads.

[Larry Gibson]

Pat I

If you're up to a little side test while you're playing around I wonder if you'd do another one for me. Not a problem.

When I was shooting my 6.5 PPC with a 170 gr quenched WW bullet in an 8 twist Shilen I got my best accuracy using 24 grs of 4350 and a P-Wad for about 1750 fps with WSR primers and the one band and check shank filled with LBT Blue. The gun wasn't a consistant 1/2 inch barn burner like happens in some places but it shot pretty well. If I was to send you some P-wads would you try them in the Swede with around 30 grs of 4350? For some reason the P-wad was neccessary although I don't know why and won't make any guesses. If you are short on or don't have any Blue left I'll send you some of that too. I realize that this test has nothing to do with HV but I think for the most part people are a lot happier with accuracy than speed. Send them with detailed load information and I'll gladly test them for you. I've sufficient LBT Blue soft left.

The only thing I'd suggest for further testing, although I really hate to do it, is that if you're going to continue using the LBT lube try filling at least half the grooves you have filled. It might make a difference. That is a good thought. There are two trains of thought on the amount of lube. One is to use less as you suggest. The other is that with the softer alloy lube in all the grooves of a Lovern design prevents set back or collapse into the unfilled grooves during accelleration. Probably only one way to know and that is to try and I've put your suggestion on my "to test" list. ThanksThe only thing I've ever found wrong with Blue, and I've used it a lot in a lot of different things, is that people use a lot more than they actually need. Are you seeing any specs of lube on your target? I'm not noticing any specs on the target but the front of the start screen is getting quite covered with lube from these HV/high RPM tests.Nice test and report by the way. Thanks for the suggestion and comments, we'll keep trying.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Pat I

If you're up to a little side test while you're playing around I wonder if you'd do another one for me. Not a problem.

When I was shooting my 6.5 PPC with a 170 gr quenched WW bullet in an 8 twist Shilen I got my best accuracy using 24 grs of 4350 and a P-Wad for about 1750 fps with WSR primers and the one band and check shank filled with LBT Blue. The gun wasn't a consistant 1/2 inch barn burner like happens in some places but it shot pretty well. If I was to send you some P-wads would you try them in the Swede with around 30 grs of 4350? For some reason the P-wad was neccessary although I don't know why and won't make any guesses. If you are short on or don't have any Blue left I'll send you some of that too. I realize that this test has nothing to do with HV but I think for the most part people are a lot happier with accuracy than speed. Send them with detailed load information and I'll gladly test them for you. I've sufficient LBT Blue soft left.

The only thing I'd suggest for further testing, although I really hate to do it, is that if you're going to continue using the LBT lube try filling at least half the grooves you have filled. It might make a difference. That is a good thought. There are two trains of thought on the amount of lube. One is to use less as you suggest. The other is that with the softer alloy lube in all the grooves of a Lovern design prevents set back or collapse into the unfilled grooves during accelleration. Probably only one way to know and that is to try and I've put your suggestion on my "to test" list. ThanksThe only thing I've ever found wrong with Blue, and I've used it a lot in a lot of different things, is that people use a lot more than they actually need. Are you seeing any specs of lube on your target? I'm not noticing any specs on the target but the front of the start screen is getting quite covered with lube from these HV/high RPM tests.Nice test and report by the way. Thanks for the suggestion and comments, we'll keep trying.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

On the lube filling all the grooves and only some of the grooves. Been there done that, no difference for me and my better groups were shot with all the grooves filled. That's both with LBT and my lube.

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

No harsh words from me. That is a very welcomed change and i do appreciate it, especially after your comments on the Mex M98 in your Brazil rifle thread.I think you are getting there. I will have to say that these groups are much better than usually gotten with similar powder charges at the same velocity level using other techniques (dacron filler for example).I think I may be able to explain why my velocity is higher with the 4350. In these new recent post here you stated my rifle as a M38. It's not the shorter barreled M38. It's the plain old longer barrel M96. The longer barrel should pick up some more velocity, not sure how much.AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH...............how is that simple fact apparently slipped by us It is entirely brobable the extra 5.6" of barrel can account for the increase in velocity. My M96 is in excellent condition so I'm not going to D&T or make any other mods to it. However I will run 10 shots of the 31 gr AA4350 load through over the M35P to check the velocity. I've know doubt it will be close to what yours is doing.

Two things I ignore on 45 2.1's advice on loading. One, I don't follow his loading to a dime's thickness of the body/shoulder junction. You found that out with the 3100 load. I did too. Larry there's only a few powders you can "almost" fill that case up with and not have the very high velocity and pressure and those are 860 and 5010 surplus. Knowing that is no doubt why that little voice in the back of my head was screaming about "too much powder".So that theory I find wrong...and that's not from you. Now go back and look at the loads and targets I've posted so far. You will see a patter and that is the powder charges seem to hover in the 30 some grain bracket. I feel anymore then that and it's too much. Since the original sweet spot with the 4350 I've added Reloader 22, N160, and IMR 7828 to my list of powder. All three of them showed a sweet spot, but particularly the 7828. I'm really beginning to like that powder and it shows promise in other calibers as well.

I have a question, how many rifles have you tested so far? 3 rifles, all with M38 barrels. Am I right thinking two? I know the M38, but what's the barrel length on your MexSwede? It is 22.5" as I had to cut it back and recrown as the crown and rifling was damaged about .75" into the bore. It shoots every bit as good as my scout M38 with the standard 23.5" barrel. Both will shoot sub moa with jacket bullets.

Another area I differ from 45 2.1 is bullet tension and crimp type. I don't necessarily set my tension, I use a .266 expander and my bullets are .268. According to 45 2.1 I don't run as close clearance in the neck thickness as he does either. My groove on my Swede is .267 so thus why I size my bullets at .268. My rifle can chamber a bullet such sized.

You are correct in my first sweet spot load of 4350 I did lube my bullets with LBT Blue. Since then, and duplicating the 4350 load, my lube has been my own beeswax, Castor oil, Ivory soap lube. After all the shooting I've done I'm beginning to think beeswax/alox may suffice. I've gotten excellent results with Javelina and Lars 50/50 lubes up through 2500 fps in other cartridges.

If your groove on your MexSwede is .267 (not saying it is, just theorizing) I cannot see ever getting HV and accuracy from it if the bullet has to be sized to .266. I don't have a .277 sizer but a lead slugg driven into the throat leade mesures .266 - .267 (depends on where it is measured in the throat and at groove depth. A .268 bullet will not enter the last .4 of the throat but a .266 sized bullet is a snug fit. I sure would like to see how it would perform if it could shoot a .268 bullet. All of the bullets in this test (Test 2) were sized .268". The problem was they were not seated to the leade and the first two driving bands were sized down during chambering by the throat.

On OAL I don't shoot for that. I go for two things. One I seat according to how the cartridge loads into the rifle. Exactly what i did as reported in the test. When closing my bolt down I feel for slight resistance of the bullet nose seating into the throat cone. I do not cam down the bolt to force the nose into the rifling leade. As explained, a .268 bullet will not reach the leade of any of the 3 M38s I have. I have not really tried the .268 bullets in my M96. I know most M96s have a little looser headspace than M38s. Perhaps the tolerances were tightened up on M38s. I will dig the M96 out of the back of my gun safe and try a .268 bullet in it and report back.

Now I named that there were two things I differ from 45 2.1 in. The second one is my crimp. He uses some kind of LEE crimper (a rifle taper crimp) that LEE doesn't make anymore. I use the LEE Factory Crimp. Now 45 2.1 stated why he doesn't like the LFCD and that is because it mars, indents, ruin, however you wish to look at it, the case mouth. Yes it does leave a mark there but I've found that does no damage and I will loose a case to a neck split long before that crimp mark does any harm. My modified Hornady seating die will give a gentle roll crimp, about half way between a roll and taper crimp. I also have used Lee's Factory crimp die with other cartridges and cast bullets without problems.

There is more then one way to skin a cat and I've proved that with my loads that differ in many areas to 45 2.1. One biggie is the use of 4350 powder which he go on me about. So when you do get that little voice in the back of your head do follow it and do go outside the set parameters. Ain't that the truth. Based on the revelation of you using a M96 and me using the M38 I am no longer attempting 2380 fps. I belive the 2050 fps +/- range with my shorter barreled M38 will have me duplicating your velocity of 2380 in the M96. Thus my test parameters have changed from what is mention in the test comments. I'll work with 30.5 to 31.5 gr of AA4350 now and focus on changing lube and bullet hardness. I also have RL19, RL 22, and H4831SC to work with. I also have some original surplus H4831 I might try but since it is not generally found anymore that might be a useless experiment.

Larry next time you're in my area you are stopping by and you are shooting my rifle and my loads. I'll hold you to that Joe

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

StarMetal

No harsh words from me. That is a very welcomed change and i do appreciate it, especially after your comments on the Mex M98 in your Brazil rifle thread.I think you are getting there. I will have to say that these groups are much better than usually gotten with similar powder charges at the same velocity level using other techniques (dacron filler for example).I think I may be able to explain why my velocity is higher with the 4350. In these new recent post here you stated my rifle as a M38. It's not the shorter barreled M38. It's the plain old longer barrel M96. The longer barrel should pick up some more velocity, not sure how much.AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH...............how is that simple fact apparently slipped by us It is entirely brobable the extra 5.6" of barrel can account for the increase in velocity. My M96 is in excellent condition so I'm not going to D&T or make any other mods to it. However I will run 10 shots of the 31 gr AA4350 load through over the M35P to check the velocity. I've know doubt it will be close to what yours is doing.

Two things I ignore on 45 2.1's advice on loading. One, I don't follow his loading to a dime's thickness of the body/shoulder junction. You found that out with the 3100 load. I did too. Larry there's only a few powders you can "almost" fill that case up with and not have the very high velocity and pressure and those are 860 and 5010 surplus. Knowing that is no doubt why that little voice in the back of my head was screaming about "too much powder".So that theory I find wrong...and that's not from you. Now go back and look at the loads and targets I've posted so far. You will see a patter and that is the powder charges seem to hover in the 30 some grain bracket. I feel anymore then that and it's too much. Since the original sweet spot with the 4350 I've added Reloader 22, N160, and IMR 7828 to my list of powder. All three of them showed a sweet spot, but particularly the 7828. I'm really beginning to like that powder and it shows promise in other calibers as well.

I have a question, how many rifles have you tested so far? 3 rifles, all with M38 barrels. Am I right thinking two? I know the M38, but what's the barrel length on your MexSwede? It is 22.5" as I had to cut it back and recrown as the crown and rifling was damaged about .75" into the bore. It shoots every bit as good as my scout M38 with the standard 23.5" barrel. Both will shoot sub moa with jacket bullets.

Another area I differ from 45 2.1 is bullet tension and crimp type. I don't necessarily set my tension, I use a .266 expander and my bullets are .268. According to 45 2.1 I don't run as close clearance in the neck thickness as he does either. My groove on my Swede is .267 so thus why I size my bullets at .268. My rifle can chamber a bullet such sized.

You are correct in my first sweet spot load of 4350 I did lube my bullets with LBT Blue. Since then, and duplicating the 4350 load, my lube has been my own beeswax, Castor oil, Ivory soap lube. After all the shooting I've done I'm beginning to think beeswax/alox may suffice. I've gotten excellent results with Javelina and Lars 50/50 lubes up through 2500 fps in other cartridges.

If your groove on your MexSwede is .267 (not saying it is, just theorizing) I cannot see ever getting HV and accuracy from it if the bullet has to be sized to .266. I don't have a .277 sizer but a lead slugg driven into the throat leade mesures .266 - .267 (depends on where it is measured in the throat and at groove depth. A .268 bullet will not enter the last .4 of the throat but a .266 sized bullet is a snug fit. I sure would like to see how it would perform if it could shoot a .268 bullet. All of the bullets in this test (Test 2) were sized .268". The problem was they were not seated to the leade and the first two driving bands were sized down during chambering by the throat.

On OAL I don't shoot for that. I go for two things. One I seat according to how the cartridge loads into the rifle. Exactly what i did as reported in the test. When closing my bolt down I feel for slight resistance of the bullet nose seating into the throat cone. I do not cam down the bolt to force the nose into the rifling leade. As explained, a .268 bullet will not reach the leade of any of the 3 M38s I have. I have not really tried the .268 bullets in my M96. I know most M96s have a little looser headspace than M38s. Perhaps the tolerances were tightened up on M38s. I will dig the M96 out of the back of my gun safe and try a .268 bullet in it and report back.

Now I named that there were two things I differ from 45 2.1 in. The second one is my crimp. He uses some kind of LEE crimper (a rifle taper crimp) that LEE doesn't make anymore. I use the LEE Factory Crimp. Now 45 2.1 stated why he doesn't like the LFCD and that is because it mars, indents, ruin, however you wish to look at it, the case mouth. Yes it does leave a mark there but I've found that does no damage and I will loose a case to a neck split long before that crimp mark does any harm. My modified Hornady seating die will give a gentle roll crimp, about half way between a roll and taper crimp. I also have used Lee's Factory crimp die with other cartridges and cast bullets without problems.

There is more then one way to skin a cat and I've proved that with my loads that differ in many areas to 45 2.1. One biggie is the use of 4350 powder which he go on me about. So when you do get that little voice in the back of your head do follow it and do go outside the set parameters. Ain't that the truth. Based on the revelation of you using a M96 and me using the M38 I am no longer attempting 2380 fps. I belive the 2050 fps +/- range with my shorter barreled M38 will have me duplicating your velocity of 2380 in the M96. Thus my test parameters have changed from what is mention in the test comments. I'll work with 30.5 to 31.5 gr of AA4350 now and focus on changing lube and bullet hardness. I also have RL19, RL 22, and H4831SC to work with. I also have some original surplus H4831 I might try but since it is not generally found anymore that might be a useless experiment.

Larry next time you're in my area you are stopping by and you are shooting my rifle and my loads. I'll hold you to that Joe

Larry Gibson

Larry,

Okay, we're on the same page. You're experiencing the same thing I did. First groups aren't so great. Then the groups get a little better. Hang in their Larry you're closing in on it. Believe me when I say once you get this you'll go Whew! Why didn't I do that in the first place. Hell I was so frustrated I wanted to send my rifle to 45 2.1 and tell him "You shoot the damn groups". He laughed and said I was doing fine, just keep trying and tuning.

I don't know how much difference that extra barrel length of mine would make. It's more then just an inch or so, so I thought I'd mention it. We'd also have to compare our chronographs side by side too. I would more likely believe your chronograph readings since those Oehlers are top of the line. One more thing I was surprised your elevation was only in the 800 foot bracket. I was under the assumption you were much higher then that up there in the big O state. I'm setting at about 2000 foot something. Now that little bit of altitude difference I would think would be insignificant.

I believe 45 2.1 told me the M38 would be the preferred rifle to shoot these loads in. Your Mex Swede sounds like a right nice rig. I wouldn't D&T that nice M96 you have. If you wanted to do that to a M96 I'd find more of a junker to do so. Mine was already D&T'ed and changed bolt handle, plus the Timney trigger at a great price. I'm really glad I bought it.

One further thing Larry. I was told that there are two Kurtz group buy bullets and the one has the more flat blunt nose. That is the one that I have. I don't have the other more pointed Kurtz, nor was I given any to shoot. In your pictures your Kurtz looks like the pointed one....correct? Heck for all we know maybe there's a difference shooting the two bullets over the same exact load. I can certainly tell you I'm having one heck of a time getting BABore's 268469 to shoot and it's not his bullet. It's a hard one, including the Lyman, I've been told to get to shoot....or find that sweet spot. The only changes I can make and not really change the groups are lube to an extent, and Hornady and my aluminum check...the checks don't make a difference. Changing a bullet does as does going from the 06 brass to commercial. I have a 100 rounds of brand new PMC for the 6.5 Swede and 100 new Norma for the 6.5 Mannlicher that are sitting idle because they will not let me achieve the sweet spot.

Okay then....keep shooting you'll get her.

Joe

[45 2.1]

I will, in fact, appreciate constructive criticism. Please be civil so we may proceed in a scientific manner and prove you correct. Larry Gibson

OK Larry, you've giving it a good try, BUT the boolit your shooting isn't the Kurtz............. Its the third GB boolit, not the one Starmetal is shooting. Please refrain from calling that one the Kurtz because it isn't.

Larry,

Okay, we're on the same page. You're experiencing the same thing I did. True. First groups aren't so great. Understatement........Then the groups get a little better. Hang in their Larry you're closing in on it. Believe me when I say once you get this you'll go Whew! Why didn't I do that in the first place. Very true. This is quite hard to relate what to do via written word or over the phone. Fairly easy to see what is wrong in person though. Degree of crimp applies to this as well. Hell I was so frustrated I wanted to send my rifle to 45 2.1 and tell him "You shoot the damn groups". He laughed and said I was doing fine, just keep trying and tuning. I would say the same thing to Larry.

I believe 45 2.1 told me the M38 would be the preferred rifle to shoot these loads in. Your Mex Swede sounds like a right nice rig. But it isn't a Swede...... I wouldn't D&T that nice M96 you have. If you wanted to do that to a M96 I'd find more of a junker to do so. Mine was already D&T'ed and changed bolt handle, plus the Timney trigger at a great price. I'm really glad I bought it.

One further thing Larry. I was told that there are two Kurtz group buy bullets and the one has the more flat blunt nose. That is the one that I have. I don't have the other more pointed Kurtz, nor was I given any to shoot. Ya need to look again. You were sent some, either in the first or second batch. In your pictures your Kurtz looks like the pointed one....correct? Heck for all we know maybe there's a difference shooting the two bullets over the same exact load. There is, plus some irregular seating problems with Larrys method. I can certainly tell you I'm having one heck of a time getting BABore's 268469 to shoot and it's not his bullet. It's a hard one, including the Lyman, I've been told to get to shoot....or find that sweet spot. The only changes I can make and not really change the groups are lube to an extent Use less LBT Blue or go to a soft non viscous lube if your gonna fill all the grooves. , and Hornady and my aluminum check...the checks don't make a difference. Changing a bullet does as does going from the 06 brass to commercial. I have a 100 rounds of brand new PMC for the 6.5 Swede and 100 new Norma for the 6.5 Mannlicher that are sitting idle because they will not let me achieve the sweet spot.

Okay then....keep shooting you'll get her. Yes, you have no idea how many things Joe tried before he got it. Swedes are hard to learn this on.

Joe

Keep trying Larry........... your methodology is off somewhat. I've chambered 0.268" boolits loaded to the base of the case neck is several dozen Swede rifles. Why your rifles don't take them...??? Why don't you size some of the front bands just enough (not undersize to that portion of the throat either) so the boolit will seat to the base of the case neck and chamber. See where the case neck is....on a band or groove? Crimp accordingly.

[scrapcan]

Whew lots of info in those last 4 or 5 threads. I will ahve to read those a few times.

Thanks to all of you for this info.

Pat I sent me some buffer so I hope to get ont his project also. If our weather woudl cooperate that would help also.

Carry on guys.

[StarMetal]

Here are the bullets I got from 45 2.1 (excluding the CM):

[StarMetal]

Whew lots of info in those last 4 or 5 threads. I will ahve to read those a few times.

Thanks to all of you for this info.

Pat I sent me some buffer so I hope to get ont his project also. If our weather woudl cooperate that would help also.

Carry on guys.

Manley,

If you want personalized help just pm me, willing also to talk you through help via phone.

Joe

[45 2.1]

Here are the bullets I got from 45 2.1 (excluding the CM):

Left to right:
1) Newer Lyman 266455
2) Older Lyman/Ideal 266455 HP
without HP pin in, nose clipped off.
3) Kurtz GB
4) 7mm Soup Can GB

Note the difference in the two editions of the 266455 from Lyman.
Keep looking Joe, I sent you half of my third GB 6.5 boolits (like Larrys pic).

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1

OK Larry, you've giving it a good try, BUT the boolit your shooting isn't the Kurtz............. Its the third GB boolit, not the one Starmetal is shooting. Please refrain from calling that one the Kurtz because it isn't.

My apologies, I'll call it a 3GB from now on. So are you saying this dog (the 3GB) won't hunt either? That only the Kurtz bullet will shoot accurately at HV in the Swede? Joe seemingly gets most any cast bullet to shoot accurately at HV so the Lyman/Ideal 266455 and now the 3GB won't either?

Hang in their Larry you're closing in on it. Believe me when I say once you get this you'll go Whew! Why didn't I do that in the first place. Very true. This is quite hard to relate what to do via written word or over the phone. Fairly easy to see what is wrong in person though. Degree of crimp applies to this as well.

Ok, you use a taper crimp, Joe uses a Lee Factory Die crimp and I modified my Hornady seating die to give a gentle tapered roll crimp. Do You really think the exact type of crimp makes a difference or is it just the amount of crimp?


Hell I was so frustrated I wanted to send my rifle to 45 2.1 and tell him "You shoot the damn groups". He laughed and said I was doing fine, just keep trying and tuning. I would say the same thing to Larry.

I hear ya and I've not given up by a long shot.

I believe 45 2.1 told me the M38 would be the preferred rifle to shoot these loads in. Your Mex Swede sounds like a right nice rig. But it isn't a Swede......

The Mex M98 barrel is an original M38 Swede barrel so the action should make no difference. That is a moot point however because Test 2 was conducted with a M38 and I shall continue testing with the M38.

One further thing Larry. I was told that there are two Kurtz group buy bullets and the one has the more flat blunt nose. That is the one that I have. I don't have the other more pointed Kurtz, nor was I given any to shoot. Ya need to look again. You were sent some, either in the first or second batch. In your pictures your Kurtz looks like the pointed one....correct? Heck for all we know maybe there's a difference shooting the two bullets over the same exact load. There is, plus some irregular seating problems with Larrys method.

[B]The bullet I am now using is obviously the 3GB. Am I going to have to buy a bunch of moulds hoping one will work? If that is the case then this method is losing a lot of viability to a lot of shooters. It is already complicated enough in "exact" componants needed.

Perhaps if you or Joe would send me (I will pay for them) some "real Kurtz" bullets I could shoot them with the same 31 gr load of AA4350 and see if there is a difference?

I can certainly tell you I'm having one heck of a time getting BABore's 268469 to shoot and it's not his bullet. It's a hard one, including the Lyman, I've been told to get to shoot....or find that sweet spot. The only changes I can make and not really change the groups are lube to an extent Use less LBT Blue or go to a soft non viscous lube if your gonna fill all the grooves. , and Hornady and my aluminum check...the checks don't make a difference. Changing a bullet does as does going from the 06 brass to commercial. I have a 100 rounds of brand new PMC for the 6.5 Swede and 100 new Norma for the 6.5 Mannlicher that are sitting idle because they will not let me achieve the sweet spot.

You say to use less LBT and Joe says "Been there done that, no difference for me and my better groups were shot with all the grooves filled. That's both with LBT and my lube. " Is this confusing or what????? I will try some with less LBT Blue soft but I am also switching to Lar's Carnauba RED which has served well with other HV loads for TEST 3.

Keep trying Larry........... your methodology is off somewhat. I've chambered 0.268" boolits loaded to the base of the case neck is several dozen Swede rifles. Why your rifles don't take them...??? I am seating my bullets to the base of the neck and all three of my M38 barrels take them. The only thing is the first 2 driving bands are sized down to .267/.266 on chambering.Why don't you size some of the front bands just enough (not undersize to that portion of the throat either) so the boolit will seat to the base of the case neck and chamber. That is exactly how they were seated during TEST 2, don't know what else to say.....See where the case neck is....on a band or groove? Crimp accordingly Light, medium or heavy crimp?

I already mentioned the "irregular seating" problems in TEST 2 report. You said to use .268 sized bullets so I did. The .268 bullets ARE seated to the base of the neck and the first 2 driving bands get sized during chambering by the throat. I can size the first 2 driving bands to .266. To seat this bullet to the leade will require the base of the bullet be seated only about half way into the neck.

Is that what you say should be done?


Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Great, no arguing. Larry I don't think the type of crimp is critical, just my opinion. To tell you the truth I can't remember shooting with no crimp at all. You know use to shoot that Kurtz I have out of my AR15 6.5 Grendel, and you'll remember I've stated it has just about zero throat at about 1/16 inch, with good success by sizing down enough of the nose and fronts bands to chamber. The first time I shot those sized such, I was shooting off hand at my no trespassing sign down my the creek at about 60 yards just to see if they shot and I could hit the sign. I did, shot about a 3/4 inch group. So I used those until I bought that Saeco 140 grain mold. I made a sizer sleeve that works in conjunction with my Lyman luber/sizer. That nose had to be brought down to .256.

You won't get any static from me using your MexSwede. 45 2.1 probably will but guess what? If you get it to shoot maybe you can bring those loads over to your other rifle and see if it gets you closer in them.

Believe us Larry, this can and has been done. If 45 2.1 reads this he'll confirm I told him he was crazy and full of bull puckey. Even Healthdee was getting some pretty good groups at his 50 yards. He was getting on to it.

Like I said and 45 2.1 confirmed, it took me a lot of time and shooting to get to where I'm at. I wasn't lying when I said I shot up a 12 inch by 10 foot sheet of .009 aluminum making gas checks. I also ran myself out of primers and powder. I haven't worked on any other rifle and caliber as much as this Swede.

No the Kurtz isn't the only bullet that will shoot. BABore's remake of the Kurtz (believe 45 2.1 and I when we say it's very close, but a different bullet) will shoot, the original CM will shoot, and BABore's 268469 is on the verge. Those other two Lymans 45 2.1 sent me I haven't played with in the Swede, but have in the 260 Remington and they went about 3/4 inch.

One final thing, I believe the level of the buffer is more critical then the type of crimp. I've shot the loads that shoot with a higher level of buffer and they went bad.

[45 2.1]

Larry Gibson;861257
My apologies, I'll call it a 3GB from now on. So are you saying this dog (the 3GB) won't hunt either? That only the Kurtz bullet will shoot accurately at HV in the Swede? Joe seemingly gets most any cast bullet to shoot accurately at HV so the Lyman/Ideal 266455 and now the 3GB won't either? All of them will shoot in something......that depends on how it fits of course.

Ok, you use a taper crimp, Joe uses a Lee Factory Die crimp and I modified my Hornady seating die to give a gentle tapered roll crimp. Do You really think the exact type of crimp makes a difference or is it just the amount of crimp? Depend on how abrupt versus tapered it is along with position and how much is applied.


I hear ya and I've not given up by a long shot. Your still in the beginning stages so be prepared for a lot of work.

Perhaps if you or Joe would send me (I will pay for them) some "real Kurtz" bullets I could shoot them with the same 31 gr load of AA4350 and see if there is a difference? I sent Joe most all of my boolits for this, the rest are for hunting..........talk to Joe.


You say to use less LBT and Joe says "Been there done that, no difference for me and my better groups were shot with all the grooves filled. That's both with LBT and my lube. " Is this confusing or what????? Lubes are different and do different things....and your useing a different boolit than Joe did. Not too confusing if you study what a lubes particular properties are. I will try some with less LBT Blue soft but I am also switching to Lar's Carnauba RED which has served well with other HV loads for TEST 3.

Keep trying Larry........... your methodology is off somewhat. I've chambered 0.268" boolits loaded to the base of the case neck is several dozen Swede rifles. Why your rifles don't take them...??? I am seating my bullets to the base of the neck and all three of my M38 barrels take them. The only thing is the first 2 driving bands are sized down to .267/.266 on chambering. That is exactly how they were seated during TEST 2, don't know what else to say. Crimp accordingly Light, medium or heavy crimp? Like most things this is where experience should guide you. Try them and see what you get. My die produces best at light/medium pressure, but a normal seater die with built in crimp is different for the same results.

I already mentioned the "irregular seating" problems in TEST 2 report. You said to use .268 sized bullets so I did. The .268 bullets ARE seated to the base of the neck and the first 2 driving bands get sized during chambering by the throat. I can size the first 2 driving bands to .266. To seat this bullet to the leade will require the base of the bullet be seated only about half way into the neck.
Is that what you say should be done? Since you say the boolit is engraved (at 0.268") and stays in place as per test 2, use it that way. Larry Gibson

StarMetal;861287 Great, no arguing. Larry I don't think the type of crimp is critical, just my opinion. And none of us have the same crimp die either. So you see what variables that causes. To tell you the truth I can't remember shooting with no crimp at all. You know use to shoot that Kurtz I have out of my AR15 6.5 Grendel, and you'll remember I've stated it has just about zero throat at about 1/16 inch, with good success by sizing down enough of the nose and fronts bands to chamber. The first time I shot those sized such, I was shooting off hand at my no trespassing sign down my the creek at about 60 yards just to see if they shot and I could hit the sign. I did, shot about a 3/4 inch group. So I used those until I bought that Saeco 140 grain mold. I made a sizer sleeve that works in conjunction with my Lyman luber/sizer. That nose had to be brought down to .256.

You won't get any static from me using your MexSwede. 45 2.1 probably will The undercurrent thru the years has been on the Swede rifle, not some other or remake of it. This is about making the Swede shoot HV, not something else. but guess what? If you get it to shoot maybe you can bring those loads over to your other rifle and see if it gets you closer in them. Joe learned on the 6.5 MS. This method does transfer to other calibers, but it is different for each. Once you learn what is going on, you can hear the correct load intensity level and tweak from there.

Believe us Larry, this can and has been done. If 45 2.1 reads this he'll confirm I told him he was crazy and full of bull puckey. For quite a while. Even Healthdee was getting some pretty good groups at his 50 yards. He was getting on to it. Yes he was, but seemed to have several things that weren't quite there.

Like I said and 45 2.1 confirmed, it took me a lot of time and shooting to get to where I'm at. And still working on it also. I'm waiting on him to make a couple of more discoveries, then he should have a really good handle on it. I wasn't lying when I said I shot up a 12 inch by 10 foot sheet of .009 aluminum making gas checks. I also ran myself out of primers and powder. I haven't worked on any other rifle and caliber as much as this Swede.

No the Kurtz isn't the only bullet that will shoot. BABore's remake of the Kurtz (believe 45 2.1 and I when we say it's very close, but a different bullet) will shoot, the original CM will shoot, and BABore's 268469 is on the verge. Those other two Lymans 45 2.1 sent me I haven't played with in the Swede, but have in the 260 Remington and they went about 3/4 inch.

One final thing, I believe the level of the buffer is more critical then the type of crimp. And buffer density should change with the volume of buffer. I've shot the loads that shoot with a higher level of buffer and they went bad.

[Larry Gibson]

Starmetal & 45 2.1

Ok, I played around a bit today with the crimp. Below is a picture of the 3 levels of crimp I can do without damaging the bullet. They are, from left to right; liight , medium and heavy. What say yee?

Also I inverted the .268 sized bullet into the .266 sizer and sized the first driving band at .266. The second driving band is .267 and the third driving band is .268 as are the remainder including the GC. The second photo shows 2 cartridges. The left is a .268 bullet seated so the first and second driving bands are sized by the throat. The base of the GC is at the base of the case neck. The second is with the first 2 driving bands sized as mentioned and seated with the front driving band just of the leade. The base of the GC is about half way down the neck. Of course the level/density of the filler was adjusted for the second longer OAL so there would be the minimal compression as 45 2.1 has described. Both of those cartridges have the light crimp.

I've some loaded to test; what say yee?

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Starmetal & 45 2.1

Ok, I played around a bit today with the crimp. Below is a picture of the 3 levels of crimp I can do without damaging the bullet. They are, from left to right; liight , medium and heavy. What say yee?

Also I inverted the .268 sized bullet into the .266 sizer and sized the first driving band at .266. The second driving band is .267 and the third driving band is .268 as are the remainder including the GC. The second photo shows 2 cartridges. The left is a .268 bullet seated so the first and second driving bands are sized by the throat. The base of the GC is at the base of the case neck. The second is with the first 2 driving bands sized as mentioned and seated with the front driving band just of the leade. The base of the GC is about half way down the neck. Of course the level/density of the filler was adjusted for the second longer OAL so there would be the minimal compression as 45 2.1 has described. Both of those cartridges have the light crimp.

I've some loaded to test; what say yee?

Larry Gibson

Although your crimper is different, mine look like the bullet to the right.

I say you have your work cut out for you. It's a shame you have to size your bullets in that manner when I and others just load them at .268. None of my bullet bases pass the neck base either.

Well the proof of your change will be in the shooting. Knowing what happen to me I hope you have lots of components such as powder and primers.

The more I look at the bullet you are using the more it looks like BABore's 268469.

Today I was shooting 7828 loads in my 7mm-08 SAKO. To give you an idea of how different that powder burns in the 7mm as compared to the 6.5 Swede, I was getting unburned powder kernels in the 7mm. I don't get any in the Swede and the charges are the same weight in both. So my 7mm is going to like faster powders.