Testing 6.5 Swede HV loading with shotgun filler

[geargnasher]

Joe, please make up your mind. You said in your milk jug thread:

"Ok, new discovery. I took my famous 4350 load with the 6.5 Kurtz bullet and shot them out of PMC commercial brass with a new technique (to the case only) and I shot a 3/4 inch group. That is a major improvement with commercial brass. Dutchman gave me the technique in a private email so direct all queries about the brass prep to him. He told me in confidence.
__________________
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong.

Now you say:

"Recently I went through a series of test using PMC factory brass for the Swede. No go with anything, it just wasn't thick enough in the neck area just as Bob had said".

You have me completely confused. I have six boxes of PMC brass I bought new loaded with J-words and the only ones that are worth a hoot are the two boxes that used Prvi-Partizan (nny headstamp) brass. The ones that say "PMC" on the case head have necks about .011-12" thick.

Gear

[StarMetal]

Joe, please make up your mind. You said in your milk jug thread:

"Ok, new discovery. I took my famous 4350 load with the 6.5 Kurtz bullet and shot them out of PMC commercial brass with a new technique (to the case only) and I shot a 3/4 inch group. That is a major improvement with commercial brass. Dutchman gave me the technique in a private email so direct all queries about the brass prep to him. He told me in confidence.
__________________
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong.

Now you say:

"Recently I went through a series of test using PMC factory brass for the Swede. No go with anything, it just wasn't thick enough in the neck area just as Bob had said".

You have me completely confused. I have six boxes of PMC brass I bought new loaded with J-words and the only ones that are worth a hoot are the two boxes that used Prvi-Partizan (nny headstamp) brass. The ones that say "PMC" on the case head have necks about .011-12" thick.

Gear

It's a method that you can't crimp the case and it shortens case life. It's probably just fine with jacketed though. If I use the cases normal the groups suck big time. The best group with my Swede with the thicker 06 case was much smaller. I dumped the method and returned to the 06 cases. Use of the very slow powders require a good firm crimp.

[Pat I.]

Joe you have to read other people's posts and remember what you wrote yourself to carry on anything resembling an intelligent conversation. Larry's done everything that's been recommended even when the two people doing the recommending are in direct contrast to each other. As far as the powder and load he tried it was your very own "Famous Load". You've said a bunch of times how long it took you to get the Swede shooting and now say you had both 6.5s you have going in under 600 rounds. I say since Larry's the one doing the shooting we let Larry continue his test with his rules. I agree with you that Varget isn't exactly my choice because of my own experiences with it in my 6.5 but like I said maybe Larry will get it to work. By the way in Larry's subtle way he's been asking you if you would send him some of your bullets with your lube so he could try them on the target. Since my subtlety only applies to insults I'll ask right out if you would mind sending some of your bullets with your lube to Larry so he could try them on the target.

"See the thing is Pat I've been there done that. I tried a lot of powders. A lot of fast ones. This was in two rifle the Swede and the Mannlicher, both different cartridges and I though well one may work. Neither did work with fast powder."

This has me a bit confused. After a search of your 6.5x54 threads I think I understood them to say that you were shooting 4895 in it at high velocity and getting 1/2 inch groups. Isn't 4895 faster burning that Varget?

You wouldn't mind sharing that technique about not crimping and shortening case life would you? I've been reloading for about 35 years and never knew there were all these secret "techniques" out there.

I'm not really after anything when I asked you to try shooting again at 50 yds. Just to humor me why not take a picture and post it of that target after you smeared some of those specks anyway.

[StarMetal]

Pat,

Remember the 6.5x54MS is a much smaller case then the 6.5x55 Swede. So the 4895 worked in it and only worked that for that one load that was it. Nothing else near the same burn rate as 4895 would work and nothing faster. I find it quite interesting that the one 4895 load worked in the MS and the one 4350 load worked in the Swede. There wasn't much of a clue leading up to the "sweet spot" load that they were going to work either.

Larry did say with 4350 the only load of all the loads he tried that looked the best was the one that was same grains I used.....31 grains. I find that interesting. So to me that shows that some form of tweaking....bullet, seating, diameter, case....who knows, maybe even his shooting style...may have brought that load home. He also states repeatedly that "Joe claims that load went 2350 fps" is not accurate. The correct statement is JOE'S LOAD DID GO 2350 FPS. Pat I've had one load up to 2873 fps. I mention that because if there is any inaccuracy in my chronograph surely 2873 fps is truely up there in HV. I've also checked my chronograph with known published velocities of quality 22 rim fire ammunition along with dozens of more comparable published velocities of centerfire ammunition. I'm not saying my chronograph is 100 percent dead accurate, but I am saying it's very close. Each rifle in it's own is different from another even from the same make and model. I can't understand why Larry is so hung up on that his rifle won't get the velocity I get from mine and in addition I've gotten around the 2400 fps velocity from three different 6.5 rifles with three different barrel lengths...that is the 6.5 Grendel 20 inch barrel, the 6.5x54MS 23 inch barrel, and the M96 Swede 29 inch barrel. Remember when you said I couldn't get 2400 fps using 4198 powder in my 6.5 Grendel? You were almost right when I tested it, I got actually 2501 fps. I also pointed out to you that when Hodgdon came out with 6.5 Grendel load recently that the majority of them were using 4198 powder and that's jacketed with more pressure then cast. I don't agree with Hodgdon that 4198 is "the" powder to use with that cartridge, they certainly have better powders in their company.

[StarMetal]

Please forgive this is off topic but it's good stuff.

Pat,

This is some of the stuff that Arne does:

6.5 PPCX 292 neck 28 inch Krieger barrel 14 twist.
This is the rifle that shot the 1.18 group at 660 yards using the 108. It will push 108 lapuas at 2950 fps using n530.

Here's the rifle:




It's for sale by the way.

[StarMetal]

LOL. Sorry Joe but I haven't been following your posts and have no idea what 867 is or know it's burn rate. No need to tell me because I doubt I'll ever use it.

No interest in D&Ting my rifles and could find better things to do with the money a mount and LER scope would cost. When you talk to Arne ask him if he designed the Grendel around bolt guns and cast bullets.

Oh well enough of this. I'll wait to see how Larry does with the Varget because that I'm interested in.

Pat,

Talked to Arne this morning, also asked him about 4350 powder and here's his reply:

AR15 was the first gun in 1998 and what I did most testing in. Didn't do a bolt gun until 2004

H4350 would be horrible in a 6.5 PPC. Its way too slow of a burn rate.

[Larry Gibson]

Well I took Starmetal off ignore as the other posts were getting confusing with only 1/2 of the conversation, same old contradictions. Simply put his first "success" with the 6.5 MS and with the 6.5 Swede was with LBT Blue Soft lube. That is why I was doing everything I could to make that lube work. I'm in the process of moving and have a lot of my equipment in storage so making a batch of starmetal's lube is out of the question right now. I really don't understand his unwillingness to send at least 50 of his lubed and GC'd Kurtz bullets. Actually I am somewhat miffed that he doesn't send the bullets since I sent him 10 AR15 20 round mags for nothing, I even paid the shipping. Oh well, he can do what he wants but sending his bullets for me to test would answer a lot of questions.

Starmetal also stated he used up "sheets" of aluminum making thousands of GC and now he says he did it in under 600 rounds? I also don't quite understand that. I am not "hung up" on the velocity of 2380+ fps. That is the velocity he claims and it is the velocity both he and 45 2.1 have challenged me to get with accuracy in the 6.5 Swede. As I stated I have shot his "famous load" (31 gr AA4350, original buffer filler, #GB cast of 50/50 alloy, bullets sized .268, LBT Blue Soft Lube, cases formed of '06 brass as per my [he needs to check my article in CastPics], his and 45 2.1s instructions, AOL with GC at bottom of case neck and a heavy crimp) in 4 different 6.5 Swedes (3 M38s and 1 M96) and none of them were within 200 fps of his claimed velocity. I only stated the facts as I found them in my search for accuracy at the claimed 2380+ fps just as both he and 45 2.1 have challenged me to do. On one hand starmetal says to use "the famous load" and then on the other he mentions moving on to several other powders that work. Then he criticizes me for saying I'm going to try other powders than the AA4350 in his "famous load", very confusing.

BTW; the “secret” method with the PMC cases according to the Dutchman is;

"It has nothing to do with PMC cases. I never mentioned PMC cases in any way.

Flare the case mouths until they fully seat in the chamber. That's it. You shoot them that way. That's what centralizes the cartridge."

I had a moderator PM me in the middle of all this with the following;

"Complete your testing and be prepared to be told:

1. You did something wrong by Joe
2. 45-2 will tell you the same thing only disagree with Joe's conclusions
3. You will receive another kernel of information that nobody has yet brought up that you obviously should have known.
4. The simple fact is that you can't hit squat with a shotgun."

That seems to be the case. Starmetal is back on ignore and I will continue testing as I've stated.

Please folks, I do not want to turn this back to a pissing contests. Just let me complete the tests. I do appreciate the helpful suggestions, even those from Starmetal and 45 2.1, from all of you. It is the "tit for tat" that we can do without, Yes I probably did a little of it in this post but I wanted to clear up the why and wherefore in the direction the tests are going. If I am successful then fine. If I call BS on Starmetal and 45 2.1 then they can have at it with their arguments, ok?

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

People say the darndest things........ This business of sending or posting a PM (thats supposed to be private messages folks instead of public messages as it seems to be now) on the forum or reposting one to someone else is "For the Birds". Old women do such things...........................

Now for you Larry.......... and this isn't a jab, just information. You are missing the whole point involving this technique. If you aren't useing the buffer to provide a pressure kicker to a slow powder to make the small volume burn completely at full pressure, and the results don't show that, THEN you aren't going to match the velocity results. No amount of testing will give you results until you find how to do that.

[StarMetal]

Larry,

If you are reading this (Pat if not relay this along to him) I'm going to send you some of my soap lube. Might as well try the real McCoy instead of geargnasher making up some. I still have your address so I'll get some packaged up and along to you. I owe you for the favor you done me on the magazines..remember?

[45nut]

I find the entire idea of calling BS over such issues completely insane considering the issues this nation is facing that are much more dangerous to our freedom.
Look at the insanity of the animosity over such a thing as whether a 6.5 in one mans hands is capable while a completely different rifle in another mans hands is not capable of the same feat.

Have any of you considered how foolish this is?

Ten pages on this thread alone and many hundreds of the past and nothing is even close to being settled between the pursuit of the 6.5 Swede ?

The very definition of insanity is clearly being broached here.

We are at a pivotal juncture in history with the outright assaults on our freedom and some members are insistent on calling each other out instead of putting the BS aside and remembering there are no absolutes in play here except my determination not to have personal warring factions on this forum.

If you cannot stand the thought of getting along,, find another venue to beat down each other.

[StarMetal]

Larry asked a legitimate questions on how could I state that I've made 1000's of 6.5 aluminum gas checks and then question his shooting of over 600 rounds in testing his Swede. Simple answer. I owned a 260 Remington and my 6.5 Grendel years before building the 6.5 Mannlicher and buy the Swede. I used lots of gas checks with those two early rifles and right up into building the 6.5 Mannlicher and buying the Swede. The statement I that I made thus reflects making 6.5 aluminum gas checks for the 260 Rem, 6.5 Grendel, 6.5 Mannlicher, and the 6.5 Swede over a period of years. I also owned Greek 6.5 Mannlicher military rifle and shot it some also before giving up on the bad chamber it had.

[Larry Gibson]

Starmetal

Thanks for the answer, that clears that up.

All

I'm done with the tests, incomplete as they are. No answer will be forthcoming from me. Thanks for all the support.

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

No, Larry, thank you. I think you wrung it out pretty well, better than anyone has so far without getting the results some say are possible. I've formed my own conclusions about that.

Gear

[357maximum]

People say the darndest things........ This business of sending or posting a PM (thats supposed to be private messages folks instead of public messages as it seems to be now) on the forum or reposting one to someone else is "For the Birds". Old women do such things...........................

Bob

When special terms and conditions set forth for someones return AND continued residency are violated so flaggerently to such an extreme after repeated warnings there WILL BE CONSEQUENCES for that action regardless of where the info came from.

If somone was to come in and attempt to burn your home down around you by lighting fires in the walls as to go unnoticed by you until it is too late to put out the fires which have now raged into an inferno and are billowing fire out the soffit....... maybe then you would begin to understand........that is something that even old women do not do.

Doing the right thing is not always easy, but it is always right. You are not the only one upset over certain paths that needed to be taken, but they needed to be taken nonetheless. The people who took the path that needed taken may not have liked it but they were forced to take it anyway as it was the only way to fix the reacurring issue.

Some situations are what they are no matter how much you wish they were different.




INSANITY= Doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

[Dutchman]

Have any of you considered how foolish this is?

Why yes, yes I have .

As a teeny weeny footnote to all this, since my poor name is sprinkled sparsely throughout this I thought I'd share:

Flare the case mouths until they fully seat in the chamber. That's it. You shoot them that way. That's what centralizes the cartridge."

This initially came from active duty US military snipers in a faraway land using the M14 sniper platform. They reported improved accuracy with this method. You have to appreciate the utter seriousness in which they undertake their job. Some/many of them qualify as the highest level of Rifleman we could have in our military.

There have been incidents of great discovery in history that couldn't be repeated by others. Just because they couldn't be repeated doesn't mean they didn't happen. I accept that as a fact of life because I'm far less than brilliant and recognize there are far more sophisticated thinkers in this world whose mind can go places mine can't even dream of. The factors involved in doing the impossible are often of such minute importance that you can look right past them and not know. With that I have to suggest it's time to turn off the lights and shut the door. I need a handfull of valium just from reading this thread, and not even all of it. I've handloaded since 1968 but I've learned some interesting things from some of you guys and I appreciate that. I said before I don't have a particular interest in doing this HV in the Swede but I am interested in the theory and particulars of the practice.

Dutch