Testing 6.5 Swede HV loading with shotgun filler

[StarMetal]

Pat,

Maybe this test and picture will clear things up about the lube. The bullet is the Lyman 266469 and the lube is LBT Blue Soft. The conditions were that it was 90 degrees out today. I think a good temperature to see if lube is going to fly off the bullet. The white sheet of paper was taped behind my chronograph. The distance from the rifle muzzle to the paper was 10 feet (measured with a steel tape measure). Yes, close for chronograp work. The velocity of the 5 shots average was 2368 fps. The load was 43 grains of 867 surplus. Notice there is not a bulls eye on the paper because the last time I done a test that involved just putting bullets onto a paper I was accused of that bullet holes were my group. I just aimed for center of skyscreens. As you can see there is very little lube on that paper.

The directions in the technique for loading the 6.5x55 Swede to HV with accuracy say nothing about what lube grooves to lube no matter how many grooves there are. All my testing has been done with all the grooves lubed.

I hope the rest of you can see that the lube flying off is non existent in my shooting and Bob can tell you the same thing in his shooting. I understand Bob even uses a softer lube in his 6.5 loads. Bob also mentioned some about a too low viscosity lube, which LBT Blue is not.

[robertbank]

Joe in the first paragraph of the above post you say "As you can see there is very little lube on that paper." I assume you are talking about the blue specks on the paper.

In your final paragraph you say, " I hope the rest of you can see that the lube flying off is non existent in my shooting..."

Well if the blue specks are the "very ittle lube" you are talking abut in paragrpah 1 then you last statement quoted isn't correct.

In any event what you experience and what Larry experienced are different and that is ok. Doesn't make either statement wrong. Just different.

Take Care

Bob

[Larry Gibson]

Bob

I have no idea what Joe is saying in his posts as I have him on "ignore". But as you mention apparently what I experience is different. Otherwise how does Joe explain all that LBT Blue soft and Carnauba Red lube all over the SkyScreens? It beats me how he can come up with an arguement with the facts when the lube all over the face of the SkyScreens and the diffusers is so obvious(?). Perhaps his lube is different, I don't know as he won't send me any bullets to test. It is what it is and I'll post the picture again of the SkyScreens for him to look at. I also have 2 other 100 yard targets that show the lube coming off if he is interested.

Larry Gibson

[Pat I.]

Joe,

What I see is LBT Blue spattered from edge to edge and top to bottom of a 8 1/2x11 piece of paper. Since I doubt all the lube that left the bullet just happened to hit a 8 1/2x11 piece of paper you should try cutting it back some and see what happens. If the temp was 40 or 50 degrees there'd even be more lube on the paper.

All I use is LBT Blue because I've found nothing better so that's what I'm talking about here. Can't speak for anything else.

[StarMetal]

Pat,

That is no 8x11 piece of paper. It's three times that size and shot at from 10 away five times. It was more then the first 2 shots before anything appeared on the paper. What you are seeing a little bit of lube mixed with lots of buffer and powder carbon. If I scrapped all those particles up and combined them I wouldn't have but a #5 shot BB. Now if you followed all the post here I posted about a ballistic forensic lab that discovered that shot buffer fired from a shotgun can travel as far as 20 to 30 feet with enough energy to penetrate a cotton T shirt. They now use this information at crime scenes involving shot guns. I would imagine buffer coming out of the end of a 6.5 barrel at over 2300 fps is going to travel further then out of a shot gun. It also explains why I didn't get any spots on the paper under after a few shots. It took that many shots to get enough lube in bore for the buffer to pick up and transport to that paper. My camera doesn't give the type of photo show how minute and few those spots are. Heck I bet I'd get near that amount of powder/carbon from five jacketed shots. I examined the spot with a little 30x microscope I have. Too bad I can't hook a camera up to it. It is what I said...lube, buffer, and carbon. It's not blue on the paper, it's black.

The LBT Blue Soft is not just flinging off my bullets in strings or globs.

How much 6.5 HV shooting have you done to state how many lube grooves on the bullet should be lubed? Pat this type of HV shooting in the Swede is entirely different then the low velocity shooting most have done.

What's on that paper is not lube slinging off the bullet. It's lube in the bore along with buffer and carbon getting propelled to the paper.

[Pat I.]

Do me a favor if you still have that target. Smear your finger across the specks and repost the picture. After that put another piece of paper at 50 yards and reshoot the test.

I do play with high velocity but not with the 6.5 because when I was shooting my 6.5 PPC accuracy started degrading after a certain speed.

How do you know it's lube being picked up by the buffer and not flinging off the bullet.

[StarMetal]

Do me a favor if you still have that target. Smear your finger across the specks and repost the picture. After that put another piece of paper at 50 yards and reshoot the test.

I do play with high velocity but not with the 6.5 because when I was shooting my 6.5 PPC accuracy started degrading after a certain speed.

How do you know it's lube being picked up by the buffer and not flinging off the bullet.

I believe it's the buffer picking it up because I had like 2-3 shots before anything showed up on the target at all.

I'll do that, I'll shoot one at 50 yards.

I smeared a few on the paper and camera won't pick it up. I'm telling you if you saw these in person they are very small specks. As said I doubt the total of them would add up to a #5 BB.

[Throwback]

Ignore sounds like a good idea

[Pat I.]

Larry,

On the lube thing the bullet on the left is one I cut for my 6.5 PPC. It weighs 170 grs. and the velocity is 1750 fps. The grooves are shallow and I only fill the space over the check and one groove for best accuracy. Alloy is quenched WWs at about 20 BNH.
The bullet on the right is one of the LBTs I use in my 30x47 at 2600 fps. It weighs about 160 grs and the alloy is HTWWs, BNH is in the mid 30s. When the weather turns a bit nippy I have to remove or not fill the groove and just run lube over the check for best accuracy.
Point is don't be afraid to try running less lube because the worse that'll happen is you'll get leading which can be cleaned out with a piece of Lead Wipe wrapped around an undersized brush, IE: 6.5 for 30 cal, 22 for 6.5. Best that could happen is that the gun might shoot a lot better and not drown your sky screens with lube.

[Larry Gibson]

Pat I

Went out yesterday and group tested the 3GB bullet cast of 50/50 WW/pb and 80/20 Lino/pb with the 31 gr AA4350 load. I only lubed the GC groove and the one above it on the WW/pb bullets with LBT Blue soft. On the Lino/pb bullets I lubed one additional groove with Carnauba Red. Both bullets with 10 shot groups at 100 and 200 yards shot into 2 1/2 moa. The dispersion for both at 20 yards was linear so obviously cutting down on the lube is keeping the bullets stable from the lube flying off. With 42 rounds fired there was not leading in the barrel from either lube.

I think I have done about all I can with that bullet and AA4350. I am going to try a slightly faster powder and a slower powder again. I will also HT the bullets for the next batch of loads. Thanks for the input, it helped.

Larry Gibson

[Pat I.]

I think you mentioned in a previous post that you were going to try Varget for the faster powder and I'm kind of interested in the results you get. When I had my 6.5 out for the first time I brought Varget and 4350 with me to try out. The Varget didn't do very well at all but the 4350 took right off so I never tried anything else. I've sort of come to the conclusion that calibers are kind of powder specific and case size might not be that important within reason when it comes to cast bullets. The PPC is a little thing compared to a Swede case but 4350 seems to be one of the better perfomers in both of them either with jacketed or cast. The same goes for the 30 BR and the 308. Quite a difference in case size but the powders that work very well in both of them are the same, at least with everything but the lite weights. If I ever get off my fat **** and have a go with my .223s the first powder I'll try is H335 because it's always proven a stellar performer in my varmint guns.

I'm hoping Varget works out for you because I like my pet theories shot down by proof. Gives me something new to think about so I can come up with a whole new batch of theories.

[StarMetal]

Pat,

The 6.5 Grendel hold a little more powder then that the 6.5 you're shooting. With that said there are zero loads for it using 4350 because simply put it's not a good powder for it. Now there are a few loads with Varget. The powders it seems to like are the Viht 130, 140, N540, AA2520, BLC2, 4895, Varget, AA2460, W748,Hodgdon Benchmark, and H335.

You can't compare or use what you know that got that little 6.5 of yours shooting and apply it to the Swede. For that matter a more close round the 6.5x54MS isn't comparable. The Swede just has too many things different besides case capacity.

Why don't you break down and buy a Swede? One was just for sale on the forum yesterday.

[Pat I.]

Actually Joe I can do anything I want. This is what I know. When I was shooting my 38 and 96 a lot with jacketed bullets 4350 was THE powder to use. When I started shooting my PPC 4350 was THE powder that did real well. You said yourself that shooting your Swede with cast bullets 4350 was YOUR powder of choice and what you recommmended to Larry. I don't remember what you said you loaded in your MS and don't feel like searching but if 4350 isn't it I'd be willing to bet it's right up there near the top.

I have a Swede 94, 38, and 96, those were the ones I took the measurements from for the neck diameter and taper measurements remember?, but can't see well enough anymore for iron sights and don't want to go through the expense of mounting a scope.

[StarMetal]

Pat,

If you've been following all my posts, which I know you are, you will see I have found quite a few more better powders for the Swede. When I first started on the Swede I didn't have a lot of variety in powders, but I do now. So as I was saying if you've been following I like the 867 surplus for the Swede better. In fact it is one of the few powders that I've found that will work in the 6.5MS and Swede too. I've done rung out the MS and have loaded up all my cases with 867 and the rifle is zeroed for those loads. FYI the first powder to get the MS shooting those small HV groups was 4895 as you can see that is far from 4350. Not near the top by any means.

Shooting jacketed in the Swede and cast at HV are two different and far apart things. You should know that.

Same reason I scoped a lot of my rifles Pat, bad eyes. Now if you do it yourself it's very cheaply done. Probably the hardest part is the bolt handle. Pat do it and enjoy them.

Arne Brenan is really responsible for the major portion in development of the 6.5 Grendel. Actually he was just necking up the 6mmPPC. I don't recall him using any 4350 but I'll surely ask him and see what he says. He's benchrester and can shoot.

[Pat I.]

LOL. Sorry Joe but I haven't been following your posts and have no idea what 867 is or know it's burn rate. No need to tell me because I doubt I'll ever use it.

No interest in D&Ting my rifles and could find better things to do with the money a mount and LER scope would cost. When you talk to Arne ask him if he designed the Grendel around bolt guns and cast bullets.

Oh well enough of this. I'll wait to see how Larry does with the Varget because that I'm interested in.

[StarMetal]

LOL. Sorry Joe but I haven't been following your posts and have no idea what 867 is or know it's burn rate. No need to tell me because I doubt I'll ever use it.

No interest in D&Ting my rifles and could find better things to do with the money a mount and LER scope would cost. When you talk to Arne ask him if he designed the Grendel around bolt guns and cast bullets.

Oh well enough of this. I'll wait to see how Larry does with the Varget because that I'm interested in.

Arne designed the round on the AR15. The bolt came later. If you shoot jacketed in any cartridges that are small bore for powder capacity, such as the Swede, 6mm Rem, 7mmMag, etc. you would want to know about the 867 powder.

I hate to tell you but your friend is going in the wrong direction with the powder. Maybe for an accurate low velocity load yes, but for an accurate high velocity load...no. Varget is a very good powder, but not for the HV Swede cast shooting. We've been there done all this Pat, but certain people don't want to listen.

[Larry Gibson]

Pat I

Well I received an email from another who does not want to get embroiled in the comments of some. He said basically the question is raised why I didn't use 4350 and stick to the exact instructions StarMetal and 45 2.1 gave me. He said some wondered why I was going to test other powders and lubes when I was already told "the load". Well apparently whoever is pondering all that really has not read my tests results here? He also requested I address these questions here on the forum instead of in an email, thus I picked you Pat to address them to

The first test was with a M38 6.5 Swede using cases reformed exactly per instructions, using the Original buffer as a filler exactly as instructed, sizing the bullets 3GB bullets that were cast of WW/pb 50/50 to .268 exactly as instructed, lubing the bullets with LBT Blue Soft exactly as instructed, I used Hornady GCs instead of StarMetal’s home made aluminum GCs, neck sized the cases exactly as instructed and modified dies to seat and crimp exactly as instructed. I worked loads up from 30 gr to 32 gr of AA4350 in .2 gr increments looking for that "sweet spot" exactly as instructed. The 5 shot groups of those test ran from 2.6" to 6.7". The velocity of the 32 gr load was 2141 fps, still 240 fps short of the 2380+ fps velocity Starmetal claimed with 31 gr of AA4350. Additionally the pressures of the 32 gr load were 37, 000 psi(M43) so I can not see where increasing the powder charge to a probable 40,000 psi is going to improve accuracy, especially with the 50/50 alloy.

Now if there was a "sweet spot" in all of that it appeared around 31 to 31.4 gr of AA4350 at 35 to 36,000 psi. However, subsequent testing has shown that 31 gr was the most consistent but only as far as giving 2.5 - 3.5" 10 shot groups at 100 yards. While I occasionally would get a 5 shot group of 1.4 - 1.7" it could not be done consistently. Starmetal claimed the velocity difference was due to his use of the longer barreled M96. Well I dug out my M96 and shot the 31 gr load just as described above in it at 100 and 200 yards just to see. The 10 shot 100 yard group (I can consistently shot 1.5 moa with that rifle using J bullets) was 5" and the 200 yard group was at a very non-linear 16.5". Velocity was 2167 fps, still 220+ fps short of Starmetal's 2380+ fps. Now using a different alloy and the same amount of LBT Blue Soft improved things to a 100 yard group of 2.17" but the 200 yard group was still a very non-linear 13". Reducing the amount of LBT Blue down to 2 or 3 grooves has not radically improved the 100 yard group size but it has made the groups at 200 yards linear which means improved stability. I do not see AA4350 used with the Original shot buffer as producing the claimed 2380+ fps at anything close to a reasonable pressure for a cast bullet let alone with accuracy.

Those are the reasons why I am going to look at a strong alloy, a slightly faster powder and a slightly slower powder along with a lube with a little more viscosity. I am searching for better accuracy and higher velocity with that accuracy. Seeing as how StarMetal has refused to send any of his 6.5 Kurtz bullets with his GCs and lube on them I am continuing my efforts with the 3GB bullet as cast from the Lee GB 6 cavity mould.

That's where it’s at and I hope that answers the email.

Larry Gibson

[Pat I.]

Larry you should copy and save that for down the road when this comes up again. Plus anyone following this would know there's too many contradictions between the two people's instructions to follow any one set of directions.

Joe you really find it surprising that someone would try out a few of their own ideas even after being told something wouldn't work? I thought that's what this was all about. This is no BS. When I was shooting my 6.5 in the cast bullet matches I had a guy on the next bench tell me my 6.5 PPC wouldn't work and I was wasting my time while I was beating him. Who knows maybe Larry will find a way to make the faster powders work that you weren't able to figure out.

[geargnasher]

Larry, could you stand just one more backseat reloader comment? I'm not trying to add to the bs but it sounds to me like you're dealing with a basic lube failure at higher "rpm". Before you split off on a completely different tack, how about giving Joe's lube a go with the 31.0-31.4gr. AA4350? I know you've been told to use LBT by both of those guys, but maybe, just maybe there's something to the soap lube. Now that you have tons of quality data and your particular loading methods for this gun down where you can do it in your sleep, it would be great to see if JUST changing to his lube and filling all the grooves makes any difference at all. If you're interested I'll make another batch and mail it to you to try, I think I figured out how he does it. You can warm a block of it up in the microwave until it's soft like putty and smear it in the grooves.

Gear

[StarMetal]

Pat,

No, I don't find it surprising. See the thing is Pat I've been there done that. I tried a lot of powders. A lot of fast ones. This was in two rifle the Swede and the Mannlicher, both different cartridges and I though well one may work. Neither did work with fast powder. I would imagine that there is a good fast powder low velocity load, but that's not what I was looking for. We both know how many components your friend has wasted finding out what the two of have and could have told him.

Recently I went through a series of test using PMC factory brass for the Swede. No go with anything, it just wasn't thick enough in the neck area just as Bob had said. With the Swede it's military 06 cases or nothing if I want the small groups. Whether your neck area of the chamber is the same as mine or not the thicker cases are the way to go and if you have neck turn some fine. By the way I'm shooting some 06 cases that I don't have to neck turn. They fit my criteria without having to. I didn't load a whole lot of test loads, don't need to. I have enough experience in reloading and shooting to see where I'm going with a new load from the amount of rounds I do load. I'll tell you one thing, it didn't take me no 600 rounds down range with both the Swede and Mannlicher together to find the sweet spot. Answer me this Pat, how come a certain party hasn't tried the loads that shot the small groups that I've been posting right along in both threads? There are CM missile loads that shot small groups, there were small groups with Viht N160, there were small groups with Reloader 22, there were small groups with surplus 867 (I'll give you that is a relatively new powder on the market) and I shot very acceptable groups with surplus 860 which has been around. Why when you're not getting anywhere with 4350 move on to the other powders I've listed. One powder I didn't get good results with at all in both rifles was H4831. In fact my 7.65 Braziltine doesn't even like it. The only powder I haven't tested because I can't get it is AA 3100. That's the one Bob said is very good. So those other powders I just mentioned are in the ball park burning rate of AA 3100. I also tried 7828 with only fair results. I tried the 4320, 4198, 748, 844, 4227, 4064 on the faster side with terrible results...that is HV not low velocity.

The only contradictory things on the loading technique is Bob never told me 4895 or 4350 powders. He talked a lot about the 3100 and said 4831 could work but it's very hard to get results with it. He said the only brass was thick 06 and he said there was only one buffer, which I bought the wrong one the first time. The two things that made the biggest difference for things to come together was the right buffer (and loaded correctly) and the thicker 06 cases. Now the Mannlicher is new and the chamber isn't so fat in it, but I do use commercial 7x57 and 30-06 form for it which is tedious because it requires a head/web reduction. It's not quite as bad as my Swede with factory cases.

You friend doen't have to have any of my own made aluminum checks because I shot them side by side with Hornady checks and they shoot exactly the same. Since I can make why buy them? As for lube I started with LBT Blue soft and wasn't going to pay the price Veral want's for them so I set out to make a lube that was comparable. I feel I have succeeded there. 357maxium's latest lube is pretty good too but I haven't made a batch of it yet. In fact Mike told me if you got a load shooting with a certain lube why in the world would you want to shoot mine and possibly have to start all over to find a good load again? Well when I get tired of doing what I'm doing I will try his lube. For one thing his lube is easier to make. It's very hard to melt Ivory soap. I know you've read of some that haven't had such great luck with it...Geargnasher comes to mine.

So that's it Pat, I'm not being negative, not name calling, just give what information I can and also any new developments that arise such as the 867 powder.

BTW I did smear the little lube spots on that target and like I said they are too light for the camera to pick up a good picture. The 50 target I haven't shot yet, but I know what you are after there. You're after it takes my bullet longer to sling the lube and you want to see if it does by 50 yards. I'll get to it.