Fillers

[Willbird]

I talked to one of the Hodgdon powder techs about the old classic blowing up your 38 Special with hollow base wadcutters and small charges of Bullseyes. He said they tried to duplicate that in the lab really really a lot and nothing. He said they would bet if you could go back in time and take the cartridge apart you'd find more powder in there then was suppose to be. I tend to agree.

303guy, you've stuck stuff in your cases and shot them that I'd never ever do.

Joe

Judging by the number of once fired 38 special wadcutter brass that USED to be avail I would guess it was once the most fired round in competition, maybe only second to 22lr in that respect. I never heard of blowing guns up with 38 hollow based wadcutters.

IMHO any time anybody blows up a pistol it was a reloading error of some kind, bullet pushed deeper into the case, or a double charge or over charge (powder bridging maybe?).

I DO believe SEE will happen with the powders they say not to use in 1/2 charges (like 4831 for example) but I do not believe SEE happens in pistols.

Bill

[405]

From what I had read about ringing of chambers it happens more often with guns that have very soft steel barrels (not 4140). of course these guns are typically WORTH a lot more $$ too .

Bill

From what I've seen in some of the old BP chambers that never saw any smokeless or fillers... I'd agree. Many of these old chambers I've looked at do show faint rings in the neck area at the point where a bullet base would be seated. My guess would be: years and years of shooting factory black powder ammo with either BP alone or with the common card wad between bullet base and charge, both at 100% load density, probably caused the rings. None that I've seen have been really large, deep or noteworthy.... but they are there. If you can get the light just right in the chamber look at the area in the neck where the base of a normal bullet would be seated.

[Willbird]

Well I wonder also if some factory loaded rounds with BP had some air space in them sometimes ??

[405]

Hard to say. I would imagine there was quite a bit of variation in the methods used to load back then. It would seem possible or even likely that some were loaded a little "loose". Then over time, the powder would settle and develop an air space. Also, some may have been loaded to something less than 100% load density to begin with. I don't have a large enough original cartridge collection nor have I looked inside enough original cartridges to make a "for sure" call about it. I have handled a large number of a variety of the old bp cartridges but just shaking them, unless there's a lot of airspace, doesn't tell much. Breaking them down to examine (especially if they are crimped) is usually a no-no because of collector value and scarcity.

[MT Gianni]

The warning issued by the author quoted is an ENORMOUS oversimplification. As someone else stated before, many do not understand the use of fillers. If one does not understand how to use them - THEN DON'T. It is ridiculous to assert that the use of fillers will certainly lead to chamber ringing....or a "destroyed gun". Bloody nonsense. The use of fillers INCORRECTLY could lead to such problems..... the key word being "incorrectly".

I've been using them for years - dacron and cotton wool exclusively. I will continue to do so, as I DO understand their use..... regardless of the misgivings of any "expert."

How do you propose one learn about fillers if you don't use them? I have used Dacron in cases with as severe a neck down as the 243. I don't any more because I don't need to. There is a huge difference in a filler in a straight wall case and a tapered one, IMO.

[bcp477]

How do you propose one learn about fillers if you don't use them? I have used Dacron in cases with as severe a neck down as the 243. I don't any more because I don't need to. There is a huge difference in a filler in a straight wall case and a tapered one, IMO.

I don't "propose" anything. I don't care if anyone else uses fillers or not..... or learns about them (or not). I have no control over what anyone else does....and I am not in the business of educating anyone on the use of anything. My comments were made in service of blunting the ridiculously over-simplified nature of the "expert's" opinion on this subject.....nothing more. The specific comment about which you speak was only a basic generalization, in furtherance of "common sense". Just as I would assert that those who are not trained pilots should not undertake flying an airplane (a very obvious example).....I stand by the character of the assertion that, if one doesn't know what the h#ll one is doing, then don't do it. The obvious uptake of that is.....gather information and learn about the subject, BEFORE acting on it. I don't see that as anything but crystal clear.

[shooter93]

I have seen the hollow base wadcutters come apart. It was long ago and the cause was very deep hollow base bullets, there were a couple types floating around, and to high a velocity. The base was more like a "skirt" and higher velocities caused a separation of the skirt from the body leaving a partial bore obstruction which caused the problem with the next shot. Often times we get "half" the story when the incident happened long ago. As I said when I use fillers I fill the case completely. Read all of Mic's and Charlie's research and methods and you can understand why they don't like fillers.

[Lead pot]

Wad cutters will shoot quite well.
This ten shot group was shot with a MVA scoped Shiloh .45/2.4 at 200 yards with a full load of 1F Goex EXP powder at 200 yards.
These wad cutters are a cup nose and base not hollow base I swage, actually they are a swaged core I use for the PP bullet.
I don't know how much farther that bullet would perform good too but it sure makes a very good clean cut hole at 200 yards.
I don't have a clue what a smokeless load would do. I don't use smokeless or any type of a filler other then a paper wad below the powder, one above the powder, lube wad and another card under the bullet.
Kurt

[Willbird]

I'm also wondering what the velocity is at muzzle, and at 200 yards with that bullet. I have seen people fire a model 52 at 200 yards with 38 wadcutters and get 6" groups if the wind was not blowing.

[EDK]

Leadpot,
Really nice shooting.
I don't really know what a MVA scoped Shiloh is?

A Shiloh Sharps...great rifle made by some really talented nice people.

MVA...Montana Vintage Arms....telescopic sight primarily designed for black powder rifles like the Sharps. Also made by some nice folks to do business with.

Kurt aka Lead Pot...one of the guys I owe a lot to for his advice on the BIG 50.

[docone31]

Now,
That is an interesting patch!
It makes a neat hole. Amazing that, without a ballistic nose, it cuts so cleanly.
Perhaps there might be some rethinking here.
And indeed, the folks at Shiloh are good folks. They take what they do, seriously.
A rifle, some day, I will have again.
That is a talks alot photo!
Says it all.

[Lead pot]

Willbird,

I don't think my 52 will reach 200 yards
I don't worry to much about velocity, other than enough to keep the gullet stable and how good it looks when it gets to the target.
That load barely made 1100 fps if that. You cant push a wad cutter to hard.


EDK.

How is that .50 shooting??
I sort of retired mine for a while.

Kurt

[Zeek]

Does your friend Mic have any explanation to offer behind his statement?

I've sometimes used a small tuft of cotton to hold the powder back against the primer; for example 10gr of Unique in a 30-06. I have a hard time picturing how that tiny pinch of cotton can cause chamber ringing or "detonation", vs just the loose powder sitting against the back of the case. I'll believe it when I see documented scientific proof.

The explanation is that way-bad things WILL happen (because they HAVE happened), from time to time, with loads using filers. Regular deflagration (standard rifle propellant type of burn) will NOT cause ringing or disintegration of the action. The steel is just way to strong for that to happen. So, all we know is that SOMETHING can happen, rarely-but-enough-to-keep-you-wary, if you use fillers. Now, you HAVE been warned. So, if you choose to ignore that, it is up to you.
Zeek

[Zeek]

The warning issued by the author quoted is an ENORMOUS oversimplification. As someone else stated before, many do not understand the use of fillers. If one does not understand how to use them - THEN DON'T. It is ridiculous to assert that the use of fillers will certainly lead to chamber ringing....or a "destroyed gun". Bloody nonsense. The use of fillers INCORRECTLY could lead to such problems..... the key word being "incorrectly".

I've been using them for years - dacron and cotton wool exclusively. I will continue to do so, as I DO understand their use..... regardless of the misgivings of any "expert."

That's fine. Just be sure that you tell folks if it goes wrong on you. The good news is that it happens to tallented shooters very seldom. The bad news is that it happens even to talented shooters. You've been warned. That is all this is. The folks who have lost a rifle from this approach also knew what they were doing. When somebody suggests that you "Join the club!", be sure that they are not carrying one.
Zeek

[303Guy]

... SOMETHING can happen, rarely-but-enough-to-keep-you-wary, if you use fillers. Now, you HAVE been warned.

FWIW, I am taking the warning very seriously! So far I have lurned that I can use shotgun powders without filler quite safely even allowing for a double charge! I want to load sub-sonic shotshells anyway - for my suppressed shotgun (I haven't built the suppressor yet). I'm thinking that a sub-sonic load has no more than 100yds useful range anyway so exptreme pinpoint accuracy for a pig sized target shooting off the shoulder is not a make or break requirement!

Here is a thought on how bad things might happen with fillers. Suppose the moisture content of a cotton filler and the powder allows for a chemical reaction with powder vapours and the cotton producing some form of high explosive mix? Cotton is the basis for nitro-cellulose, right? Just a thought.

[303Guy]

Putting it that way makes me remember past events when something happened and the nearest suspect got blamed and that was the end of the 'investigation' and conclusions were drawn! 'They' didn't get away with it when I was involved. I always hit 'them' hard in the face with facts that 'they' could not deny! But then again, I never got any promotions! (I just never learned the art of 'kissing butt'!)

Well, I have just tested a small charge of Lil'Gun under a heavy boolit with the muzzle pointing straight down. It burned well and some AR2209 contaminant was collected with signs of 'partial burning'. I am now about to test the same load with Dacron fill.

[303Guy]

Right. Test done!

Indications are higher velocity with the Dacron filler but lower pressure but this is not a definitive test as a different rifle and case was used. The 'partially burned' AR2209 seems the same and there was no trace of the Dacron.

One charge was lying up against the boolit and the other was held against the primer. The bores are very different. So, I am thinking that Dacron has fewer likelyhoods of variations so might be a safer option than cotton wool.

I am also thinking that it could be better to use the 'correct' filler in the 'correct' way than no filler at all but I am still concerned as a warning was issued!


"Partially burned" AR2209. Small white granules of burned or maybe partially burned Lil'Gun is visible. There was no sign of the burned/partially burned Lil'Gun without the Dacron filler.

[6.5 mike]

My biggest problem was talking myself into putting something in the case besides powder. Just seemed wrong to my simple mind, but in order to fireform the cases in my sharps I needed to do this using a light smokeless load (12.5 gr unique).
So far I've had no signs of any trouble, & I do check about every 3 rounds.
Using a dacron filler as shown by 405 I get very consisent ignion & surprizing accuracy with a 300 gr pistol boolit pp'ed to match my barrel.
I think using the correct filler, with the correct powder charge lowers your chance of a problem. As has been pointed out, confusing a filler & a wad leads to big mistakes.

[Bullshop]

Two words, PACKING POPCORN. Or is that three words. Oh I dont care I use it.
BIC/BS

[Blackhawk Convertable]

I use dryer lint for filler on my Black Powder substitute loads