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Thread: Canadian Ranger "Marksmanship Mechanics & Ballistic Tables

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by 30calflash View Post
    This has some great info on the 303 in general. I'm interested in what arsenal loaded ammo should not be used in a No1 Mk3. If there is anyone with that info it would be greatly appreciated.
    I'd hesitate to use MkVIIIZ of any manufacture in an SMLE MkIII or earlier rifles. I hear the Australians had forbidden its use in their No.1 Lithgows, and a safety warning from Australia which I found on a European site said some greatly overloaded MkVIIIz bearing a headstamp similar to the Privi Partizan stamp had damaged rifles there.

    Metalurgy of the SMLE was not well standardized at the time most were manufactured, with Nickel content varying greatly. Nickel content gives the action body its ability to recover from flexing without permanent stretching.
    Some SMLE have as much as 3.5% Nickel (roughly equal to the P-14/M1917)while 2.75% was considered the acceptable lower limit. Those with less nickel may stretch if repeatedly subjected to more than 45,400 CUP of the MkVII ammunition.

    From some obscure remarks made by Skenerton some late production Lithgows may have been made of a Carbon Steel alloy with no apreciable nickel or chrome content.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master
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    Thanks for the info. At the moment I have a mix of 303 from various sources, including the hotter MKVIIIZ that you mention. IIRC this was loaded for use in BREN's, correct? The others are Pakistani, Win white box mfd in the mid 80's and Greek HXP. I'll have to look at all of it.
    That should mean that MKVII or MKVIIZ should be okay? Also for reloading it seems to be worth toning it down a little to help with case life. It appears that most loading info in current or recent manuals reflect this. FWIW I believe the Lithgow is 1942 and the others are 1916-18 vintage BSA. I'll check them all and report back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Multigunner View Post
    I'd hesitate to use MkVIIIZ of any manufacture in an SMLE MkIII or earlier rifles. I hear the Australians had forbidden its use in their No.1 Lithgows, and a safety warning from Australia which I found on a European site said some greatly overloaded MkVIIIz bearing a headstamp similar to the Privi Partizan stamp had damaged rifles there.

    Metalurgy of the SMLE was not well standardized at the time most were manufactured, with Nickel content varying greatly. Nickel content gives the action body its ability to recover from flexing without permanent stretching.
    Some SMLE have as much as 3.5% Nickel (roughly equal to the P-14/M1917)while 2.75% was considered the acceptable lower limit. Those with less nickel may stretch if repeatedly subjected to more than 45,400 CUP of the MkVII ammunition.

    From some obscure remarks made by Skenerton some late production Lithgows may have been made of a Carbon Steel alloy with no apreciable nickel or chrome content.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by 30calflash View Post
    Thanks for the info. At the moment I have a mix of 303 from various sources, including the hotter MKVIIIZ that you mention. IIRC this was loaded for use in BREN's, correct? The others are Pakistani, Win white box mfd in the mid 80's and Greek HXP. I'll have to look at all of it.
    That should mean that MKVII or MKVIIZ should be okay? Also for reloading it seems to be worth toning it down a little to help with case life. It appears that most loading info in current or recent manuals reflect this. FWIW I believe the Lithgow is 1942 and the others are 1916-18 vintage BSA. I'll check them all and report back.
    The MkVIIIZ was developed in the mid 30's for ultra long range indirect fire with the Vickers MGs. It was authorised for use in the Bren Gun late in WW2 when firing in low light conditions because the Cordite propellent used with MkVII ammo gave a bright muzzle flash and no flash suppressants had be developed for cordite. The muzzle flash problem with cordite was bad enough that night fighters had flip down dark lenses on the gunsight to prevent after images from blinding the pilot when he fired his guns.

    In later years MkIIIz was used with the BREN at times and I've found surplus MkVII in boxes marked for use in the Bren Gun.
    MkVIIz was also used in MGs, it reduced bore erosion due to lower flame temperature.
    Because single base powders didn't bump up the bullets in the throat to the same extent as cordite, and cordite eroded throats quickly, the barrels would be marked as to what ammunition was to be used. A barrel that had fired quite a bit of MkVIIz or MkVIIIz could still fire MkVII accurately but it took only a few hundred rounds of MKVII to erode the throat enough that MkVIIz and MkVIIIz would no longer be accurate in that barrel.

    The RAF continued to use Cordite in their ammo because it gave more certain ignition in the cold air at high altitudes, and because the tracer compound in use at the time required a high flame temperature to ignite reliably.
    Use of cordite required alterations in the standard RAF wing guns, these were altered to fire from an open bolt and the nose cap of the jacket was altered to reduce jamming from hard baked carbon deposits.

    If your SMLE rifles show any throat erosion you might as well foget using boat tail bullets, and the bullet that best bumps up to fill the grooves properly seems to be the Hornady .312 flat base 150 gr. I haven't tried the heavier Hornady .312 bullets yet.
    If theres no noticable erosion the barrels should handle boat tail bullets okay, so long as they aren't much if any undersized.

    Powders that give a good initial shock on ignition work best with oversized bores, and most enfield bores are oversized.

    A friend has had great results using IMR 4198 with his No.5 Carbine, I generally use IMR 4320 in the full length SMLE and No.4 rifles.

    Pakistani POF runs from so-so to abysmal, the 1960's MkVII is well known for misfires and hangfires and the MkVIIz of the same vintage is downright dangerous and hangfires have been known to detonate while opening the action even after a long wait.

    The only HXP I've broken down to inspect shows every sign of being manufactured to Winchester specs with what appears to be Olin Ball powder. This corresponds with the findings of others who have investigated this ammo.
    The Germans looted all the Greeks ammunition manufacturing equipment, and the US gave Greece surplus equipment to restart their arms industries after Great Britian cut off post war aid to Greece.
    The HXP cases I've examined were identical to the Winchester cases, including the relief groove cut above the rim. They also have the occasional case with very wide relief cut, just as I've found in 80's manufacture Winchester sporting ammo.
    The cases compared side by side appear to have been made on the same machinery, the brass is the same color, texture and quality. The bullets are solid lead core rather than the two piece core of the Mark VII, and are about 174 gr.

    The rifles you mention sound like they should be above average specimens if in good condition. BSA was a class act all the way, and the only problems I've run across with Lithgow products were late WW2 manufacture from subcontractor parts.

    If the bores are in very good condition or better I'd suggest to look into the IMR4007SSC powder. Hodgdons online reloaders guide gives loads using this fairly new powder that duplicate the MkVII balistically yet generate less than 40,000 CUP.
    I haven't been able to find this powder locally so I can't say for sure, but it certainly sounds promising and would allow good performance with less stress on the actions.

  4. #24
    Boolit Buddy
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    I can second the motion about watching out for firing Machine Gun ammo in a bolt gun.....

    Did it with some Hungarian Heavy Ball in my Mosin - bruised the heck out of my shoulder..... It sure felt like it was operating with quite a bit more "Oomph" than "Standard" rifle ammo.... I would worry about doing that sort of thing with an Enfield with it's rear locking lugs....

    Then... a dumb question.... If they have gazillions of old rifles in "Issue" use - and those rifles are incredibly reliable and otherwise still fit for use, and still an extraordinarily good choice for the particular duty they see... Why not Re-Arsenal them and install new barrels? Really - the No.4Mk1 Enfield is legendary for it's ability to run in horrible conditions.... without jamming and it reloads fast... It seems like Arctic duty is a perfect example of where to just keep using it.....

    Thanks

  5. #25
    Boolit Master
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    I just got around to checking the specs of Indian Ordnance factory Mk7z ammunition. According to the specs the bullets of these would also have a solid lead core rather than the two part core of the original MkVII bullet.

    I've long wondered whether the two piece core was actually used that much in the later manufacture .303 ammunition.
    Considering ongoing controversy over inhumane wounding effects I suspect some state users chose to substitute the more conventional solid lead core bullets.

  6. #26
    Boolit Mold shooter257's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertbank View Post
    Here is a link to the Canadian Ranger Marksmanship Mechanics & Ballistic Tables for the .303 Brit using the #4 Rifle. I have no idea how to convert this to a readable file so it can be copied here but if someone can please do so.


    http://rodandgun.sslpowered.com/arti...blications.pdf

    Take Care

    Bob
    I just add my 2 cents , I was a Ranger Instructor from 93 to 96 in YellowKnife,and yes the Canadain Rangers was supposed to receive new rifles then,we even did test on five different rifles,the problem at the time was with the Canadian firearm act,as every ranger would have had to take the firearms course, as this would be a non military firearm, so the 303 was no problems for the Ranger to receive the 303 rifle and keep at home as it was still part of the military . The Canadian Ranger is listed as a sub comp of the reserves.and one more thing why we went to soft point ammo is becouse you can not hunt with hard point ammo, and back then we used 150 win ammo.

    Jim

  7. #27
    Boolit Master zuke's Avatar
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    I just clicked on the link http://rodandgun.sslpowered.com/arti...blications.pdf
    and it seem's to be a dead end now.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master robertbank's Avatar
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    I'll contact the local Ranger group and see if I can get it up again.

    Take Care

    Bob
    [SIZE=3][COLOR=#ff0000]Je suis Charlie

    "If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"

  9. #29
    Boolit Mold
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    I was told the rangers would be getting FN's but that would suprise me as they where first restricted here and now are prohibs. As for the .303 ammo I preffer MK7 DA, MK 8 is hotter but accuracy seems to suffer.

  10. #30
    Boolit Master robertbank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 762nato View Post
    I was told the rangers would be getting FN's but that would suprise me as they where first restricted here and now are prohibs. As for the .303 ammo I preffer MK7 DA, MK 8 is hotter but accuracy seems to suffer.
    The FN's are not going to happen. There is no way select fire guns are going to be given out to the Rangers. With budgets getting cut it may be awhile before a new bolt gun in .308 is purchased.

    Take Care

    Bob
    [SIZE=3][COLOR=#ff0000]Je suis Charlie

    "If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"

  11. #31
    Boolit Master zuke's Avatar
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    Ya know what funny would be? If the pencil pusher's decided to buy a pile of Moisen's for our Northern boy's!
    How much would a couple skid's full cost them verses re-tooling to make up No4 part's?

  12. #32
    Boolit Master robertbank's Avatar
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    I have heard the Remington 700 in .308 was being considered at one point. The #4 will be replaced. Just when is the question.

    It is going to be a bolt gun.

    Take Care

    Bob
    [SIZE=3][COLOR=#ff0000]Je suis Charlie

    "If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"

  13. #33
    Boolit Master
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    The original post was made in 2010. The link of the OP takes to a domain that is for sale, not to the pdf. Is there any way to relink to the pdf?

  14. #34
    Boolit Master robertbank's Avatar
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    Ill see if I can find it.

    Bob
    [SIZE=3][COLOR=#ff0000]Je suis Charlie

    "If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"

  15. #35
    Boolit Master
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    Thanks.

  16. #36
    Boolit Man dave524's Avatar
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    Finally they get a new rifle, pretty much a scout type rifle

    http://ottawacitizen.com/news/nation...nadian-rangers

  17. #37
    Boolit Bub
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    I don't know how much I love the orange stock on those new ones,

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check