.38 S&W bullet mould

[longranger]

I have done a "search" for info on the .38 S&W regarding bullet size. I have two Colt Police Positives in this chambering.
Research has led me to believe that .360 cast lead bullet is the proper dia. for the .38 S&W,that is bore dia.Groove dia. is .363-.4
I know for rifles .01-.02 over bore dia. for G.G. bullets is this the rule for handguns as well?
Also I have read that the .38 S&W used a "heeled" bullet. I have not been able to find .360 dia. cast bullets so I am researching for the proper mould for the .38 S&W.What off the shelf mould is correct ? Steve Brooks is gearing to make handgun bullet moulds , four gang only at this time and pricey.I want to get the proper bullet design and dia. before ordering.Is a "heeled bullet similar to a hollow base ? I am thinking .361 dia. RN 155gr. with WW + 10% tin push the bullet 850-900fps with 2.5grs. Unique.
Is this the right direction? I really do not want to mess with Lee moulds.
Any thoughts or considerations would be much appreciated.

[Bret4207]

If your grooves measure .363-4 then you want a boolit at least .364-5. You go +.001-2 over GROOVE size. FWIW- that seems a tiny bit fat for a Colt as they tend to run a little tighter than Smiths. My S+W Perfected needs about a .363 to do best, I think at least since I've never gotten a boolit that fat. Most likely you'll be limited to whatever the chambers will accept. See what a fired case mouth measures, you may be limited from the get go.

The Lyman 360271 used to be available as a regular item and ran a good .361/.362, at least my copy does. Lee makes a 9mm Makarov mould that, while very light for the 38S+W, is big enough to use. The 38 S+W isn't a heeled boolit, that's the 38 Colt IIRC. There were hollow based designs around for the 38 S+W though.

850-900 fps would be stretching things a bit. I'd lower my expectations to the 7-750 fps area in the light Colt PP. And I'd plan on using ww/lead 50/50 or some alloy like that. WW + that much tin is a way harder than anything you'll need.

[dubber123]

That does seem a bit loose for a Colt. Did you actually slug it and get those measurements, or are you going by what you have researched? What are the throats on the gun? The 360271 that Bret mentioned is for sale in the Swap & Sell section, (ddeaton). Might be worth a shot.

[longranger]

I have been going with what I have rsearched. I could hope for a undersized 38 S&W I am going to check out the Lyman mould.

[Echo]

Also I have read that the .38 S&W used a "heeled" bullet.

I don't think so. The 38-40 was originally loaded with a heel bullet, but i don't think the 38 S&W ever was. I might be wrong (Was wrong once last week - thought I was wrong about something, but wasn't).

[9.3X62AL]

To my best recollection, the 38 S&W has always been loaded a straight-shanked boolit. Some of the Colt-inspired revolver calibers used heeled bullets, and they haven't fared well--historically speaking.

My Colt PP x 38 S&W has .359" throats and grooves of about .3575"-.358". I use Lyman #358477 (150 grain SWC) and enough 231 or Unique to prompt 725 FPS or so, and the boolits go right where the sights look. It has become a very nice little Kit Gun, with more whomp than any 22 LR ever launched. It has gone along on forays for quail and chukar, and jackrabbits know how far a shotgun can reach--and stay out just past that limit. The Colt drives home a sharp lesson about varmint arrogance and their knowledge limits concerning field artillery.

[bob208]

the 38-40 did not use a heeled bullet the .41 colt did.

for .38s-w i have been using 358429 bullets just get a 360 sizing die or use them as cast. they shoot great in my s&w victory model in .38 s&w.

[deltaenterprizes]

Magma makes a mold for the 9mm Makarov that should cast .360'', a little light but may work.

[longranger]

Thanks guys for the info, I thought I had read somewhere a heeled bullet had been used,perhaps in the B/P form.Not going use any thing like that anyway.Buffalo Arms has some .358 HBWC in 158 gr. I going to try some .358 bullets and see how well it shoots and go from there.

[Buckshot]

............The 38 S&W isn't heeled. I have 2 S&W Victory models and a rather nice Iver Johnson break top, all in 38 S&W. All 3 share a .361" chamber mouth along with a .361" groove.



The above are the slugs I've used in the 3 revolvers that have done well. FROM LEFT 200gr Lyman 358430, 150gr Lyman 35863 WC, 105gr Lee DEWC 6 cav group buy, 146gr Lee RN 6 cav group buy, the previous slug loaded, a factory load (Actually a Colt New Police) but a 38S&W with a FN, and a 38 Special case just for scale.

A mould for you to use to could be the Lee mould for the Makarov as it drops about .363" if not a bit fatter. Or you can keep your eyes open for a Lyman 35863. It seems all I've heard about casts fat and my 4 cavity drops them of pure lead at .363". BTW, ALL the slugs I shot form the 38 S&W are cast of pure lead. Those 146gr RN's were done so as to shoot to the sights of most American made revolvers chambered to 38 S&W.



The IJ pistol, and a target it fired. 1.6grs Red Dot, 150gr Lyman 35863 wadcutter, benched at 25 yards. IIRC the slugs chronoed at about 500 fps. Not bad for the little night stand pistol.



The parkerized Victory Model and a 25 yard target fired with the Lyman 35863 WC's cast of pure lead. I then swaged a hollow base into them. Feed'em what they want and they don't do too bad. A somewhat odd little cartridge that for some reason seems to catch some folk's fancy.

...............Buckshot

[canyon-ghost]

From the looks of your targets, there's a reason some folks fancy that odd cartridge. This one and several others that a person can cast and handload are great, albeit called obsolete. The breaktops have their own chamberings and make acceptable close range and trail guns. Nothing at all wrong with them, nothing wrong with collecting what has been left in the dust of modernization. We get in a production hurry too much and leave the really good stuff behind, generally as a society.

Nice stuff there, Buckshot

Ron

http://hollowpointmold.com/forsale/

[3006guns]

I HAD to jump in on this thread with what little knowledge I can offer.

I bought a 5" S&W (1905) some years back, nothing fancy just a good tight revolver chambered for the .38 S&W. One of those repatriated guns tastefully marked by the Austrian police. I think I paid $60.00, then just cleaned and stuck it away.

When I stumbled across some brass at a gun show I decided to play with this piddling little "antique" cartridge. I had some Keith 158 grn. swc from my .38 special loadings, so I simply used those......sized to .357 and a snifter of Unique.

Man, what a suprise. Out in the wilds of the Nevada desert I dumped two jackrabbits at a measured distance of 60 yards, shooting in the classical stance. I swear it took the boolit 10 seconds to travel that distance (or so it seemed). I see now why it was favored for target work in "ye old days"...it is one heck of an accurate cartridge! Although eclipsed by the .38 special, it still has a lot to offer with both accuracy and mild recoil.

Yeah, I bought more brass..........

[9.3X62AL]

I have a bit of history with the 38 S&W, too. Along about 2002, I found a Webley-Enfield DAO top-break in this caliber, and started my usual playtimes with the old relic. Dimensions check, scrounge some brass, the usual drill.

OKSMLE from this board kindly sent some samples of NEI mould #169A, so I got serious and stopped messing with the Beagled Lyman #358430s and bought a Lyman H&I die to match the throats of the W-E, .363". The best I could derive from the fattened Lymans was about .361" or so.

Next came Ken Waters' article on the 38 S&W for the milsurps, which are a step in power above the usual run of 38 S&W top-break and small-frame examples. Military load data sent the 178-200 grain boolits out at 700 FPS, which is still a few miles from Magnum Country's ZIP Code but substantially stronger than most 38 S&W loads, which barely make 700 FPS with 146 grain RNs in factory trim. Mr. Waters used a Ruger Speed-Six chambered in 38 S&W for his work-ups, this being a variant made for the Royal Hong Kong Police at some past time. Bill Ruger got around, more than a little. Boiled down, Mr. Waters recommended that only the Webley-Enfield, S&W M&P, or other high-strength platforms be used with the "heavy-for-caliber" bullets at 700 FPS.

A while back, I bought an NEI #169A of my own to generate slugs for my revos. The whole assembly is a curious concoction. The boolits are longer than the casings they get installed in--810." vs. .775". The boolit has a short drive-band section less than half the boolit's total length, and a single lube groove. LOTS of boolit nose extends from the case, and the cartridges JUST fit in the W-E's short cylinder. One needs to have a little time-in-grade with British cars to fully appreciate the English engineering of this combination.

All that said, the ammo shoots well from both the S&W and the W-E. Not like Rick's target, but jackrabbits are in some danger to 50 yards--and when those big slugs connect, they make a THWONK slapping sound and the recipient tips over forthwith. The Colt PP with the lighter factory-level loads is more accurate, and the #358477s end things immediately--just as they did for me in 38 Special for over 25 years.

Someone above made mention of the 9mm Makarov boolit being adaptable to the wide-dimensioned 38 S&W examples........YOU BET! They shoot a bit low, but make for a fine Super Vel-type load, screaming right along at 900 FPS or so.

Boolits aren't the only thing from the Makarov that can be pressed into service for the 38 S&W. I have used the Mak tungsten-carbide sizer die and the Mak expander die to process cases for the W-E and S&W. I also have the RCBS Cowboy die set for 38 S&W, but its seater die's bullet sleeve won't swallow a boolit larger than .361". No problem--seat the #169A boolits with the Mak seater, then crimp with the 38 S&W seater die. The RN portion is small enough to fit inside the smaller boolit sleeve.

RCBS conventional/steel dies for the 38 S&W have been moved to "Group I", and their price is rapacious. The price of the RCBS Cowboy Set and the T/C Makarov set is less than one Group I set of dies.

[TAWILDCATT]

gad the children have found the mainstay of the small town police,and some bigger ones too.
we grew up with 38 S&W in H&R and Iver Johnson break action. still have an H&R
break.and a IVer 32 break.
and the british thought it was good enuf for their troops.
I even have a win tong tool in 38 S&W.

[Bret4207]

Yupper, TAW tells it true. Once you get beyond the "bigger, faster, louder" phase a whole new world opens up.

[longranger]

Thanks to all responded I have located some 38 S&W bullets from Mag Tech sold by Mid South Shooters.These should be the same RN bullet used for their factory loadings(146gr).I will be curious to know the dia. of these bullets or if their just stuffing .357 in 38 S&W case.
I have been looking at dies and by the sound of what folks are saying get 2 sets of dies .38 S&W and the 9MM Marokov.I have the RCBS Cowboy dies on B/O @ B.A.Co..
How strong is the Colt P.P. ? Will it handle the moderate loads 146gr-700fps ?
I just discovered this cartridge and found a pile of very nice old Colts out there for less than a New Ruger MK III and many of the new wheel guns. Love the butter smooth D/A on these revolvers.Quality like nothing made today,when time was cheap and people took pride in doing their jobs.Not to many folks spend 30 years ginding,polishing and buffing little parts and fitting them into little works of art.

[Buckshot]

[QUOTE=longranger;773052]I have been looking at dies and by the sound of what folks are saying get 2 sets of dies .38 S&W and the 9MM Marokov.

On 9.3x62Al's advice I got a set of the Lee Makarov dies and that' all I use. Don't know about other makers 38 S&W dies, but the Lee set I had, wanted to size the brass to hold a .358" slug.

How strong is the Colt P.P. ? Will it handle the moderate loads 146gr-700fps ?
I just discovered this cartridge and found a pile of very nice old Colts out there for less than a New Ruger MK III and many of the new wheel guns. QUOTE]

PM 9.3x62Al as I know he owns a Colt Police Positve because I stood there while he bought it

..............Buckshot

[LouisianaMan]

Well, I have read this thread with *intense* interest.

About a month ago I decided to standardize .38 S&W Mods 32-1 and 33/33-1 for my wife and two daughters, thereby getting each an identical 2" and 4" revolver and completely eliminating the problems they encountered switching between my various S&W, Colt & Ruger cylinder latches, DA/SA guns, 5- vs. 6-shooters, etc. Also, the frame, weight, grips, & dimensions fit them perfectly, recoil won't be an issue anymore & the caliber offers a bit more defense capability than .32 S&W Long. Since I reload & cast, I'm not worried so much about easy ammo availability for them. They're all effective shooters in close range rapid fire, but don't share my passion for shooting & therefore practice only rarely. With each having identical guns, any practice with each others' guns will essentially be like practicing with their own.

And yes, after 24 yrs. Army I should have thought earlier about the merits of standardization! And also, honor requires that I admit I bought myself a matching brace of pistols. (Although my personal primary defense revolvers are .45LC and .38SPL.)

I'm loading my first .38 S&W this coming weekend, to get a feel for how they may do with the molds I own. I currently use a Lee 158g .358 TL and a Lee group buy 358430 .360ish 193g WW, 197g 50-50 WW-Pb. BTW, I will NOT seek the 700fps range with the heavyweight slugs, but only what I understand was the Brit military spec of 630 or so with the 4", and probably 590-600 with the snubbies. I have read some of your concerns about this matter on another thread where someone proposed reaching 700s with a 200g, but does anyone think that my lower vel goals are unsuitable for these S&Ws?

I expect leading & a subsequent search for a mold that casts .361-.363 or so, and I'll wind up deciding whether the heavyweights shoot close enough to POA for their close-range defense purposes or whether I'll settle for a 158g or even a 146-ish to match the factory sights exactly. Would rather have a 158g in low-mid 700s, which should be close to POA & fits some Lee, Lyman & Speer reloading data I have, but am not fixated on that.

Anyway, tomorrow night I will look up the various molds you all mention above, and try to digest that info more fully. About a year ago I got motivated to get a .32 S&W Long after reading Ed Harris's posts & articles, and that has brought me back to the world of lower power but more fun. He has kindly offered me some observations on .38 S&W loads, and I welcome your views to broaden my knowledge.

[9.3X62AL]

I would place both the I/J-frame S&Ws and the D-frame Colts in 38 S&W well inside the "standard pressure" envelope of the caliber, that being 700-725 FPS from a 4" barrel with the 145-150 grain bullets. I have no plans to try any bullets heavier than the present Lyman #358477 SWC (150 grains) in my Police Positive. At 700-725 FPS this boolit goes right where the sights look, and it doesn't get a whole lot better than that.

More coolness--HKS speedloaders for the Detective Special work well in my Police Positive, and I imagine the HKS loaders for the S&W Chief's Special would do similar service for the M-32 or M-33. I've never had a chance to fire or measure a 32 or 33. If I found one for sale, it would likely follow me home.

Bret mentioned something above that has always resonated with me--that once you get past the thunder & lightning part of gunsports, a whole new world opens for you. I have a 30-year love affair with 32 caliber revolvers and autopistols, because they have done a fine job afield and on targets. I have found similar enjoyment with the 38 S&W. No, none of these will cartwheel a mule deer, and there are better calibers for goblin repellant. That said, not many folks will volunteer to soak up 32 S&W Longs or 38 S&Ws--and 2 or 3 well-placed 146 grain RNs beat hell outta 9mm JHPs into the background.

And 200 grains of heavy metal going 3.5 football fields per second from the heavier 38 S&Ws would be even less fun to absorb. The hits I've made on jackrabbits show A LOT of outgoing damage, as if they went sideways during the trip through the critter. One of the boolits definitely "whirred" off through the desert after making said passage. And a 200 grainer going 700 FPS is the same ballistics given by standard-pressure 38 Special 200 grain loadings.

[243winxb]

old post warning.