35 Rem Small Ring Mauser

[bstarling]

I really don't know where to start this post. Firstly, it is my first even though I've been a board member for sometime now. Anyway, Here we go.

I have decided that I need (want) a small ring Mauser in 35 Remington, and I want to build it. I am familiar with what is needed to do the build, but have never done a rebarrel before. I am thinking that to confuse it even more I might like to do it with a barrel nut for a change barrel set up. I have a 7x14 mini lathe that I've been able to do some barrel tapering with, but can't begin to get anything more than about 0.750" into the headstock. I am guessing I can get the barrel blank part way into the headstock and ride it in a steady rest, but not sure. I can always get a machine shop to thread it if I can't. I need to get a .358 barrel. A pre-threaded one would be great, but so far I haven't found one that I can afford. If it were finish chambered that would be even better. Does anyone have any Ideas or comments. I would appreciate all the help I can get.

Many thanks, and I'm glad to be on board.

Bill

[StarMetal]

I really don't know where to start this post. Firstly, it is my first even though I've been a board member for sometime now. Anyway, Here we go.

I have decided that I need (want) a small ring Mauser in 35 Remington, and I want to build it. I am familiar with what is needed to do the build, but have never done a rebarrel before. I am thinking that to confuse it even more I might like to do it with a barrel nut for a change barrel set up. I have a 7x14 mini lathe that I've been able to do some barrel tapering with, but can't begin to get anything more than about 0.750" into the headstock. I am guessing I can get the barrel blank part way into the headstock and ride it in a steady rest, but not sure. I can always get a machine shop to thread it if I can't. I need to get a .358 barrel. A pre-threaded one would be great, but so far I haven't found one that I can afford. If it were finish chambered that would be even better. Does anyone have any Ideas or comments. I would appreciate all the help I can get.

Many thanks, and I'm glad to be on board.

Bill

I think you may be in luck. I'm pretty sure Larry Gibson has one or done that. He should be along soon.

Joe

[bstarling]

I truly hope so. I've got a bug in my britches and it has to go. They only way is for me to make this work. Thanks for the quick reply.

Bill

[deltaenterprizes]

I think you are under tooled and under skilled. It would be a challenge for a seasoned gunsmith to accomplish that task with that level of tooling. How do you expect to indicate the bore true? the barrell OD is rarely concentric with the bore. Getting a machine shop to thread your barrel would be asking them to do gunsmithing without an FFL which is a felony that can result in 10 yr and/or $10,000 fine. Barrel work is not what you would call "general machine work" it is more in the "tool & die making" realm of machine work. You could be building a bomb and placing it right next to your head, small ring Mauser actions are not the strongest actions , I think a 98 would be a much safer choice.
Will the barrel even fit in the spindle of a 7x14 lathe? My first lathe was a 9x30 Southbend and it only had a 3/4" spindle bore.
I am not trying to offend you but barreling rifles is serious business and if things go wrong the results can be disastrous, if not deadly to the shooter and nearby spectators also.

[bstarling]

I think you are under tooled and under skilled. It would be a challenge for a seasoned gunsmith to accomplish that task with that level of tooling. How do you expect to indicate the bore true? the barrell OD is rarely concentric with the bore. Getting a machine shop to thread your barrel would be asking them to do gunsmithing without an FFL which is a felony that can result in 10 yr and/or $10,000 fine. Barrel work is not what you would call "general machine work" it is more in the "tool & die making" realm of machine work. You could be building a bomb and placing it right next to your head, small ring Mauser actions are not the strongest actions , I think a 98 would be a much safer choice.
Will the barrel even fit in the spindle of a 7x14 lathe? My first lathe was a 9x30 Southbend and it only had a 3/4" spindle bore.
I am not trying to offend you but barreling rifles is serious business and if things go wrong the results can be disastrous, if not deadly to the shooter and nearby spectators also.

I am pretty sure I am under tooled and that may well be the limiting factor. I am not under skilled in machine work, though. It would take some careful work, but I am also certain I can get the bore indicated, so concentricty should be no problem. I am thinking that if I can get a substantial portion of the barrel into the spindle, I can use a steady to get alignment with the bore and cut the threads.

I am aware that a shop cannot build a weapon for sale without an FFL, but I am reasonably certain that cutting threads does not qualify as gun making for sale. I could be wrong, but don't think so.

I appreciate your input and look forward to more.

Thanks, Bill

[deltaenterprizes]

The fact that they need to take possession of the receiver from you to fit the threads (i would not do it any other way) constitutes gunsmithing without a license, unless you stand there with the receiver while the operator threads the barrel. Also is this machinist , not gunsmith. going to dial in the bore to be concentric with the bore, or indicate the OD to .005" and start cutting? And does he know it the threads are 55* or 60*? Next rag in the gears, is the machinist a convicted felon? How many other guns have you rebarreled? Do you have a chamber reamer and GO and NO GO guages and know how to use them, and a barrel vise and action wrench?
Next thing, what is the hourly rate for for machine time in your area? $60/hr is cheap more than likely $80 to $100 and do they want the risk of the gun blowing up and you blaming them for the work they did?

[StarMetal]

deltaenterprizes,

Do you have something against this fellow doing a rifle project? I can understand advice to keep him out of legal problems, but it's almost as if you don't want him to do it. Everyone has to start somewhere.

We're not talking about a bench rest rifle. He probably wants a 35 Rem to shoot cast and deer hunt. You don't have to do all that stuff you mentioned except with for the head space gauges. With pre-threaded barrels you even have to do less, providing he can find one in 35 Rem for a small ring mauser. I know where he can get, but it doesn't sound like it would be in his price range. A short chambered Mauser barrel isn't out of the realm of the do it yourself. You can rent the finish reamer and ream the final portion by hand and often checking with the go gauge.

Or are you trying to show off your gunsmithing prowlness?

Joe

[lathesmith]

Some guys ream out the spindle bores of their mini-lathes to 13/16" just to be able to do the work you describe. This gives you just enough clearance to be able to handle T/C Contender barrel profiles, especially when you mount a 5" 4-jaw chuck.
Have you considered one of these barrels:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=537134

I believe this barrel profile would fit your minilathe, provided it was reamed as per above and you had a 5" 4-jaw chuck. I don't even think you would need to resort to a steady rest if you use these items in combination.

Good luck with your project!
lathesmith

[rockrat]

-I am sure you can order a short chambered barrel in the contour you want, from Shaw, Pac-nor, Lothar-Walther, or Shilen for your action and then ream to final dimensions

[bstarling]

deltaenterprizes,

Do you have something against this fellow doing a rifle project? I can understand advice to keep him out of legal problems, but it's almost as if you don't want him to do it. Everyone has to start somewhere.

We're not talking about a bench rest rifle. He probably wants a 35 Rem to shoot cast and deer hunt. You don't have to do all that stuff you mentioned except with for the head space gauges. With pre-threaded barrels you even have to do less, providing he can find one in 35 Rem for a small ring mauser. I know where he can get, but it doesn't sound like it would be in his price range. A short chambered Mauser barrel isn't out of the realm of the do it yourself. You can rent the finish reamer and ream the final portion by hand and often checking with the go gauge.

Or are you trying to show off your gunsmithing prowlness?

Joe

Thanks Joe. I completely appreciate your input. I really didn't want to start a pissin match on my first post, so will continue to bite my tongue. I can have a smith do it, but that doesn't count as far as I am concerned with this project. I want to and will get it done. You are exactly right about the rifle. I want make it on the cheap and for the most part by my own hand. I want it to go bang and shoot lead at paper and hogs. If I could find a prechambered threaded small ring barrel, the rest would be a cake walk. It would even be better if I could find the barred without a shoulder and a long thread. I'd for sure make a Savage, Mossberg barrel nut set up.

Thanks again,

Bill

[bstarling]

The link to the A&B blank and the comment on boring out the headstock is helpful. Thanks Lathesmith.

I wonder if these are made either in short chamber or finish chambered small rings in the .358. I found some short chambered A&B's in all of the usual small ring calibers, but not the 35 Rem.

Bill

[swheeler]

bstarling: Just an idea here but you could have ER Shaw make up a prefit SR barrel for you. I'm sure they would ream chamber to .100" protrusion(ready to go no reamer needed), thread with a 1.00 inch long shank, contour and crown. Now all you have to do is make yourself a barrel nut of approx .300" thickness, thread it all the way onto the barrel, drop in the Go gage, thread barrel into rec fitted with stripped bolt until it lightly contacts the go gage( this will leave approx .075" between nut and barrel shank-depending on your rec), tighten down barrel, now make sure it wont close on the No Go gage. Now you can assemble the rest of gun, and go shoot. Something real similar worked for Rhineland Arms for several years. As far as I know there will be no extra charge from Shaw for the longer thread shank(there isn't on the lLS turks) Talk to Chris_drawing a blank here_Murry I believe?? About 160.00 to your door. Scot

[Larry Gibson]

I have rebarreled many Mausers over the years including cutting threads. You are indeed under shopped for that, especially if you want to make a barrel nut also. I have rebarreled 3 SR M91 Mausers and a Mexican M98 SR Mauser to .35 Remington. It was relatively painless to do with the Shilen 26" contoured, pre-threaded and short chambered for SR Mausers. These are available from Brownells. They might seem spendy at first but once you start farming out barrel work they won't seem so spendy at all. The nice thing about them is you could easily set the shoulder back with your lathe. The shanks are of M93/96 Mauser length and the M91 requires a longer shank. Makes for easy fitting to the action. I'm not sure why you want to add a barrel nut to a SR Mauser but I didn't. I have my own reamer but you can rent one to finnish ream for a nominal fee from several places. I simply used 3 once fired and then full length sized cases to headspace with. I finish ream so I can just feel the bolt close on those cases. All factory ammo slides into the chamber without problem.

The only other thing necessary for the M91 is to epoxy/solder a small shoulder inside on each side of the single stack magazine to hold the shorter .35 Rem cartridges to the rear. They are placed where the shoulder of the bottom 4 cases are when to the rear of the magazine. They stop one cartridge thickness below the magazine lips so the top cartridge will feed forward. Before attempting the conversion on a M93/M95/or M96 try feeding some .35 remmington cartridges through the action to make sure they don't prematurely pop out of the action, especiall on the left side. Not always a problem but it can be. Also confirm that the extractor will hold the case tightly in the bolt face during extraction. If the case falls out the bottom of the bolt face during extraction a new extractor may be required. That is not a problem with the M91 as the bolt face surround the casr rim and the extractor always has enough grasp, at least on all that I have checked.

Converting a SR Mauser, especialy the M91, is a very worthwhile conversion. This is particularly the case if shooting cast bullets comes to mind. All the conversions i have done are excellent shooters. Two of us use cast bullets and mine is very accurate with the RCBS 35-200-FN being my favorite hunting bullet. This last November I killed a very nice 8 point buck down Texas way with it and that RCBS cast bullet. Let me know if I can answer any other questions.

Larry Gibson

[swheeler]

Bill; wanted to add I really like the idea of a switch barrel mauser, neat.

[Buckshot]

..............First of all thanks for finally posting How's it feel? Secondly my apologies for the rather poor photo's. A long ago 1st gen digital and it's software.



I built a 35 Rem on a M1894 Brazilian SR Mauser action (made by FN) with a 16" twist. I'm not much for plastic stocks but this deal was on the cheap and CDNN or a similar place had the RamLine stocks on closeout for $39. It also wears the least expensive Williams sight available.



The front sight was a Rem 700 ramp out of the junk box. A filler block in the magazine and shortening the follower might be benificial but I haven't had any problems with it, and did no alterations to the bolt, extractor or ejector.



These are some 50 yard 5 shot groups shot with the 200gr Saeco (shown loaded on the follower in above pic) and using surplus WC846 ball powder.



A few 'fooling around' light loads. Didn't like that smallish 9mm boolit too much. I size to .359" and the 9mm slug just made .357".

..............Buckshot

[deltaenterprizes]

deltaenterprizes,

Do you have something against this fellow doing a rifle project? I can understand advice to keep him out of legal problems, but it's almost as if you don't want him to do it. Everyone has to start somewhere.

We're not talking about a bench rest rifle. He probably wants a 35 Rem to shoot cast and deer hunt. You don't have to do all that stuff you mentioned except with for the head space gauges. With pre-threaded barrels you even have to do less, providing he can find one in 35 Rem for a small ring mauser. I know where he can get, but it doesn't sound like it would be in his price range. A short chambered Mauser barrel isn't out of the realm of the do it yourself. You can rent the finish reamer and ream the final portion by hand and often checking with the go gauge.

Or are you trying to show off your gunsmithing prowlness?

Joe

I am trying to make him understand the seriousness of the project and the potential dangers of it not being done right to himself and others in the area. Doing things "cheap" usually involves cutting corners that create dangerous conditions.Do it right regardless of the cost.
Guns have a bad habit of going boom and throwing shrapnel when not put together properly.
Also small ring Mausers do not have the gas venting features of the 98 in case of a ruptured primer or case failure.
Reading a book or two or renting a video to get some idea of what is involved would be a good start. A mentor would even better.
I screwed up a $300 Hart barrel on my first attempt because I didn't set the lathe for the right thread pitch! I recently figured out that the bedding block in the H-S Precision stock is crooked causing the action to only have 25% contact making the thing shoot 1 1/2'' group @ 100 yards! Bedding the action solved the problem.
That little mistake setting the levers on the lathe made me build another rifle on an Turkish Mauser action costing another couple hundred.
"Show off my gunsmithing prowness"? Hell no, I am trying to help him avoid the costly mistakes I have made! With the time and money I spent on machinery and tooling I could have a safe full of pretty rifles and a lot less grey hair!
I want this gentleman to learn from my mistakes and the mistakes of others and take the time and spend the money to do it right so in the end he has a safe rifle that shoots good too.
I think that first rifle has only cost me about $10,000.

[bstarling]

I am trying to make him understand the seriousness of the project and the potential dangers of it not being done right to himself and others in the area.
Guns have a bad habit of going boom and throwing shrapnel when not put together properly.

Delta, I appreciate your concern. I understand that these boards are read by all sorts of folks, some of which may not quite be up to the task of driving a nail. I want to assure you that no offense is taken to your comments. I do, however, have considerable experience in working with tools and completely understand the inherent dangers of 40,000 psi gas. I will sincerely appreciate any useful ideas you may be able to share with me.

Many thanks, Bill

[swheeler]

"I am thinking that to confuse it even more I might like to do it with a barrel nut for a change barrel set up." by bstarling (AM I MISSING SOMETHING HERE-DO YOU WANT SWITCH BARREL OR NOT)

With your mini lathe you can make the barrel nut, I think you are "undertooled" for the rest, ER SHAW.

[deltaenterprizes]

Thank you, I am just trying to get you to think before you act. Jerry Kunhousen(sp) has a good book on gunsmithing Mausers and another informative book is "Bolt Action Rifles" by Frank De Hass. He goes into the development of bolt guns from their inception to modern day designs. Steve Acker has some good information available and I think Technical Video has some American Gunsmithing Institute videos available for rent.
I have known a few excellent gunsmiths, most were machinists and wish I had been able to spend more time with them to learn more but most of them have passed on a long time now. The couple that are still around are 400 miles away.
I was lucky that my machinist teacher, my mentor, is an excellent gunsmith and benchrest shooter. He taught me how to headspace bolt action rifles on a VZ24 Mauser 98.
We have become good friends and I can call him and pick his brain. He gave me a P&W Model "B" for a graduation present
A good site I found is called "Turkmain", it has info on barreling K.Kale Turkish Mausers that have small ring barrel shanks.
You have to strip the bolt when you are head spacing he chamber and let the weight of the handle cause it to close. Shaw makes the A&B barrels for Midway and a prethreaded short chambered barrel is the way to go for your first project. Mine was an A&B SS fluted varmint weight in a Fajen Ace Varminter stock.

[Willbird]

I say "screw the barrel nut". The bbl nut is only there to make a production mfg process easier. Or to allow you to order a bbl from some gun in OH and screw it on your rifle in AK and adjust the headspace.

If you do good work you will not need or want a barrel nut unless you wanted to use the same barrel on several different actions (and did not want to take the time to make the actions all the same).

The barrel nut is just a shortcut to doing a proper job.

Bill