I have a question for gunsmiths and how they protect their firearms from theft. We have had burglaries commited by druggies feeding their habit. Some of these thefts involve stealing gun safes that were bolted to walls and floors. This is happening in quit, rural communities. Does anyone have special deterrents to avoid these creeps from taking your stuff?
Several things can and should be done to slow thieves and or stop them. One is a safe that has to be disassembled to fit thru doors, If they cant get the locked unit thru the doors it greatly deters them. Serial number on the safe made note of along with all pertanant info from manufacturer, Manufacturer notified of theft so if they contact them for combination its not given. Safe solidly bolted to floor and wall or walls if posible. Floor bolts should go thru floor and heavy plates. Ideally a piece of boiler plate the same or larger size than base of safe, the more they have to break the harder it is for them. A piece of 3/8"4"X4" boiler plate used to bolt the safe to the floor Under the floor means a 4' square of floor has to be broken or cut thru. Filling the gaps under the safe keeps pry bars from being inserted under the safe also. Lag screws seem good but are easy and quick to pull out of the wood. Serial numbers, descriptions, and pics of firearms should be recorded and stored in several places, your home, parents or family members home, saftey deposit box at bank. If stolen send this list serial numbers and descriptions to every pawn shop gun shop in the states surrounding this makes selling almost imposible to do. If possible postings at gun shows. You wont defeat the professionals but can slow them down to where its not worth it for them.The locals can be stopped.
You didn't mention if you are a home based business or what, so being a home based business here is what I do.
#1 An alarm system and lots of security cameras, make it obvious where you put them. Cameras are not a deterent to all thieves though.
#2 A mean dog or 2. My dog isn't mean but he's big enough to intimidate most people. I will get a decent guard dog some day.
#3 A black bear. This is my wish list, I wouldn't need #1, #2 or #4 if I had one.
#4 Fenced property. Close and lock the gates at all times. My gates are locked whether someone is home or not. If you only close the gates when you are gone, then everyone knows when you're gone.
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. -- H.L. Mencken
The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naïve and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.― H.L. Mencken
I understand your dilemma. Having sold gun safes and seen a good number of safes on the market, the most common mistake made in the purchase is price, weight, thickness of metal and physical size. Understandably cost is a big factor. However a well built, thick wall, very HEAVY safe is not cheap. One must consider the value of the items stored inside the safe. At todays prices and demand, it does not take many firearms to well exceed the cost of a top end safe. Don't forget, it is a safe and jewelry, important papers, etc. will wind up inside as well. Next, a person should be very selective as to who knows you have a safe. If possible, keep safe concealed or covered to protect from roaming eyes. Having a monitored security system is a very good and inexpensive backup to the safe. A thief needs time to move a 1500-2500 lb. safe. The security system will limit the amount time thieves have to work and greatly improves the chance of them caught in the act. Thieves are lazy bunch that won't work, but will take what you have worked to acquire and think nothing of it. I hope this will be of help. Iron Whittler
Nothing can ever be truly safe from theft. Real pros can steal almost anything. Even the Mona Lisa has been attempted! But for your average, ordinary thieves, who are by leaps and bounds the most numerous and active, Country Gent gives great advice. And when yoy say to yourself, "I'll put in in the safe and lock it later," ...... well, that's the way to lose stuff OUT of the safe. And ol' Murphy's Law predicts that if you forget to come back and do as you told yourself you'd do, that the VERY time that a thief will hit you! Don't ask me why it works like that. I don't know. It just DOES! Diligence and foresight are always the best policy. Things we don't think will happen .... just DO sometimes.
Somewhere on this internet thingy I saw (possibly this site) a pepper spray bombs that can be hooked up to an alarm system or stand alone. Disguised as a smoke detector or sprinkler head they spue pepper spray and fill the room, would discourage all but the most determined.
It's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years (Abe Lincoln)
"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.” George Washington
Actually the Mona Lisa was stolen. An Italian who was working at the French museum simply put the painting under his coat and walked out the door. He thought it should be returned to Italy. If I remember correctly, it was missing for several years before being returned.
A GUN THAT'S COCKED AND UNLOADED AIN'T GOOD FOR NUTHIN'........... ROOSTER COGBURN
An alarm system and a GOOD safe. If it don't weigh at least 1,000 pounds add lead to it.
Say...I'll chip in with about $0.02 worth of experience and ideas.
I used to patronize, and almost bought , a local gun shop in Calif. The owner lived in a house that was about 10 steps away from the shop. He did not have a proper burglar alarm, but instead had one of the older intercom systems. It was very handy because his wife could call him home for lunch, etc. A receiver/transmitter in each room of the shop, and a master control in his living room with a bank of flip switches. He'd sit in his recliner at night and, as he watched TV, would occasionally flip the switches one at a time and listen for unusual noises. One night he heard such a noise, and taking his sawed off Rem. Mod. 11 12 Ga. and a powerful flashlight he located two burglars sawing through the wood siding on the back of the shop building. One of the burglars advanced on him with a crowbar, so he shot him in the arm. After that they were quite willing to wait for the arrival of the Sheriff's Deputies. The Sheriff himself personally presented the owner with a new box of shells a couple of weeks later. That was around 1959 or 60 and things were different than now. In fact, eventually I purchased the shotgun as my home defense gun, but when I found one I liked better I purchased a new barrel for the Remington, reblued it, re-stocked it. Still have it. I guess I deleted the photo of the gun from my computer picture file, but if you look at the Products Review forum and search for one about a crushed Doskocil gun case it's pictured there.
Found it: Thread name is: From the bottom of the pile.
Eventually I did own my own gunsmithing business. It was in a rural area on 30 acres, and my house was also on the property with about a 3 minute walk to the shop. When I first opened for business guys I didn't know would come in and hang out for awhile, and you could tell that they were looking all about trying to determine what the security features were. "Casing the joint" if you like. I had no functioning burglar alarm system at all, but engaged in psychological warfare. If anyone remarked that they didn't see any tape on the windows I'll tell them that it was unnecessary as the motion detectors were turned on at night. Then I'd reach under the counter and show them a funky little burglar alarm item I had purchased from Sportsman's Guide. It was about the size and shape of a pound of butter standing on end, actually had a motion detector sensor on the top and a keypad on the front. Supposedly it could detect motion and then phone your house or the local law enforcement agency and deliver a message, like "Send help. The shop at 733 Elm St. is being burglarized"--whatever message you wanted to record on it. I never bothered to use it--never even tested it--still have it. So then I'd say, "but if somebody had the guts to try and burglarize my shop and came sneaking up at night and looked in the window they'd see the little red lights that are actually laser beams. If something breaks one of the beams then the alarm goes off over at the house and I come over with the shotgun. So, I feel pretty secure with the motion detectors and laser beam protection." The little red lights were actually there at night, but were night lights for kid's bedrooms that come on by themselves when the overhead lights are turned off.
Then I'd say, in a friendly and confidential manner, "But who'd be crazy enough to want to burglarize a gunsmithing shop like this one. Everything in here is here because it's broken and needs fixed. Sure not worth someone risking their life for. "These fellows apparently talked to their buddies, and I never did have a burglary attempt in 18 years at that location. I did have a gate at the top of my lane about 15 acres distant that was locked with a heavy chain and padlock at night or whenever we weren't home. It was rare that no one was at home.
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Another gun dealer friend who lived in a town about 28 miles distant from my shop had the most secure set up I've seen, which was a concrete block building inside of which in one corner was a concrete block vault. The holes in the blocks were stuffed with concrete and rebar. Now this is kind of hard to describe, but on either side of the door into the vault was a pillar made of more concrete blocks, and between the pillars and the sides of the doorway was a heavy channel iron frame. The door, which was a huge sheet of about 3/8" boiler plate, was on rollers inside this frame. When rolled closed the lock for the door on the right hand edge was behind the pillar as was the left hand edge. There was nothing to attack on the door at all, just a flat steel surface, and you could reach behind the pillar to unlock the padlock but couldn't much get at it otherwise. It was an Air Force surplus armory lock which sort of resembles a very tall and thick Master Padlock, many layers of laminated steel and which will supposedly withstand a direct close-up hit from a .30-06 bullet. At night he'd move all his guns into the vault and lock the door. There was a light bulb above the vault's door, and at night passing police cruisers (small town, rarely more than one) could look through the window and see the vault door. I used to kid him about his nuclear fallout shelter.
Last edited by Der Gebirgsjager; 01-16-2017 at 07:11 PM. Reason: Insert thread name
Thanks for the good info. Most of us probably have collections that took years to acquire. The thought of some garbage taking what I worked hard for is unthinkable. I am going to order the pepper spray bomb and look at enclosing the safe with hardened walls. Please keep the ideas coming.
The basic premise is you trade time for security. Given enough time any defensive fortification will fall to a prolonged siege if the defenders cannot be relieved. Now, a gun safe isn't a fort but the concept holds true. You're just using physical security to buy time.
During most attacks you only need to buy a little time in order to prevail. Surprisingly gun stores located in more populous communities may have an advantage due to a larger police presence. A small rural community may have little or even no police presence during some hours and what few police officers they have can be diverted, often over great distances, by fake calls for service. If a thief can buy just a little time they may be successful. Alarms don't stop attacks, they simply notify someone that an attack is occurring. If there's no one available to respond to that alarm; the alarm is of little value.
Fortunately, most thieves aren't that sophisticated and will seek a less defended target when confronted with strong security. Defense in depth is a good strategy. Prevent vehicle access to the building (note that this may impair fire suppression efforts), prevent direct access to the building itself (locked gates), prevent access from non-conventional areas (roof, walls, etc.), prevent access to the safe itself and finally make the safe exceedingly difficult to remove forcing the thief to attack the safe in situ.
Der G., that was good thinking and a good plan, IMHO. I have a friend who's done very well for himself. He's an old mountain boy, and is built like Lee Van Cleef but in the face, looks just like Sean Connery. He's an old Viet Nam vet and went there with a good knowledge of how to fight. He came back, learned to do some hi-tec welding, and owned his own company that installed stainless and other pipes in high pressure, high corrosion facilities. All welds HAD to be "perfect," or they had to cut them off and reweld again. He learned quickly who was up to that standard of welding and who was not. And he kept the good ones, and was very generous and fair with them, as to pay and all else. They all had a mutual respect for each other, and became a "family" of sorts.
He had need of a young "gopher" and hired a young man of uncertain nature. One day, he pulled up to his "supply yard," which was a simple chain link fence with a padlock on the gate. The young helper knew the value of the SS pipe and other equipment stored within the simple fence. He looked up at my friend, and asked, "Mr. X, what's to keep somebody from coming here, cutting the lock, and making off with all this stuff?" Mr. X jerked his head around as if insulted, and gave him that stern look he did so marvelously, and simply said, "My reputation!" He continued that stare only he could achieve, looking into the young man's eyes for any sign he might be thinking about actually doing such a thing, and seeing he was totally cowed, went about his business as though nothing had happened. The kid got the message, and he NEVER had a theft from the little fenced in stash.
And THAT, my friends, when it CAN be achieved, counts for a lot more than most other "security devices." Anything man can make, he can bypass. But a man's reputation CAN, if it's sufficient, be one of the best that a man can possibly have. Few have this quality or demeanor or countenance .... or the reputation to back it all up .... but IF it's achievable, and convincing, it really can make a huge difference. I've heard a number of burglars say they'd NEVER try to burglarize so and so's home or whatever, because "That man'll KILL you!" And the look in their eyes showed how deeply they meant it.
Probably 80% of burglars are essentially cowards, who use the "sneak" to do their crimes. Most get a thrill out of it. Most have to go to the "Big House" to learn it's not worth what they get. I used to have a sort of semi-canned spiel that I'd give all my burglars whenever I could spare the time. It just basically wound up being a serious evaluation of the gains and losses that were inevitable. Since they'd already been caught at least once, it was impossible for them to NOT get the point. And it seemed to actually make some difference to som of them. One I met a few years back, and he tried to thank me for "all I'd done" for him, and introduced me to his wife and children. He'd actually gone straight, believe it or not! And he was SO proud of himself, despite the fact that by most standards, he didn't really have a whole lot. But what he had was HIS, and nobody else's, and that was enough for him, when compared to years in prison. I made VERY sure that he knew that I'd just passed along stuff I'd learned from many others, and that ALL credit was due to HIM, and NOT me! He understood, and it made him even prouder of himself. And I think it was warranted. Burglars are usually one of the most difficult offender types to "reason with." But it CAN be done, and some of them actually "get it." Horace was one of the better ones, and he's happy as a lark, and attends church with his wife and kids every Sunday, unless some sort of sickness prevents it.
BUT .... there's another type, and THOSE can be dangerous! Some go armed now. And the hatred on the streets in many areas drives them to commit heinous acts that are TOTALLY unnecessary. But they LIKE it! Those are the type you REALLY have to be concerned about, and there's no way of knowing which type is confronting you until it's over. This is the great problem of dealing with burglars. Most will leave and not stop running if you fire off a starter pistol that can't fire live ammo. Those fewer others consider it an invitation to a gun fight. Good luck with those. You may really NEED it!
Eternal vigilance and forethought is the price of Freedom. It's also necessary on a personal basis, if you want to keep what you've worked a lifetime to accrue. And nothing will ever change that, and for years now, the bad ones are getting more and more common. "Y'all be careful out there!" as they used to say on Hill St. Blues.
Thanks for the compliment.
A cross between Sean Connery and Lee Van Cleef? That would scare me. Wouldn't know what to expect--the long barreled SAA with rifle stock, or an oil slick!
I guess the most dangerous type of burglar is becoming the most common type--the drug addict. Stealing to get a fix, maybe desperate to get one or already high.
I'm glad that at least one reformed.
I remember the Sgt. on Hill Street Blues saying things like, "Hey, hey--Let's be careful out there," and "Remember..be careful out there," but didn't see the episode where he said "Y'all..." You probably saw the Southern version.
Yes, for some reason this area has a heroin problem. Coincides with a rising illegal immigration problem. Overdoses daily in this county. I just don't want to be a victim of these zombies.
IMO the two keys to keeping your guns safe is a safe location that won't allow a cable to be wrapped around the safe to yank it out with a vehicle, and a location that isn't easily found.
To me the ideal location is in the corner of a basement. Pour a concrete slab to keep the safe off the floor and protect it from flooding, and bolt the safe to the floor, and the concrete walls of the basement. Then build a false wall or some other means of hiding the safe.
Nothing is truly theft proof. The key is turning a several minute job into a several hour job.
Not sure how it works for a gunsmith but after my safe, my biggest piece of mind comes from a good insurance policy.
Keep moving forward!
If you have the money, one thing you can do is buy an actual safe, not a "residential security container". I think even the biggest of the Cannon safes (RSC) weigh in at under 1,000 lbs. Most actual class B safes that would be big enough to store a couple of dozen long guns will weigh in at around 1 ton. The bigger class B safes can go over 3,000 lbs.
You have to buy what you can afford. But, if you have say $12,000 worth of guns, it just doesn't make a lot of sense to try and protect them from theft and fire with $500 sheet metal box.
Fire scares me as much as theft. One of the things I read recently is that if you put your safe in the basement and the house burns down, the safe ends up buried under several feet of coals and/or water.
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms *shall not be infringed*.
"The greatest danger to American freedom is a government that ignores the Constitution."
- Thomas Jefferson
"While the people have property, arms in their hands, and only a spark of noble spirit, the most corrupt Congress must be mad to form any project of tyranny."
- Rev. Nicholas Collin, Fayetteville Gazette (N.C.), October 12, 1789
I thought about getting a safe with 1/4" walls and a 1/2" door. However, a cutting torch will cut that as easily as 1/8". I'm sure some of the firearms would get trashed from the cutting too. The weight of a heavy safe would be a huge plus tho. I think trying to put up time barriers so it takes them longer to break in the safe is a good idea.
If you're house burns to the slab, it doesn't matter what level of fire protection your safe has, your guns will be damaged. That's what insurance is for.
To provide a level of fire protection that would protect your guns would most likely cost more than your guns are worth. So you have to figure out what level of protection you want and how much you're willing to invest.
Amen!Originally Posted by kingstrider
Below is food for thought for those who plan to build a house or shop in the future:
I'm currently in process of having my forever home built along with the shop of my dreams. The shop will have my guns in it, and my gun safe will actually be a vault that I can walk in with an Island in the middle to put guns on for examination and such, and the walls will have rifle racks, pistol racks, etc. I am modeling it off of an armory for nostalgia purposes. Making this a part of my shop actually came out cheaper than buying a safe that met my requirements. Odd how that works, but I'll take it, lol! Just an idea for those who may look at building a home in the future.
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