Bullet for 38-40 ?

[August]

What alternatives for bullets are there for 38-40 with Holy Black?

Background: I've been shooting 38-40 for two years in competition with an Uberti '73 and a pair of USFA SAs. For most of that time, I've been using a big lube design, produced by custom Lee moulds offered by Dick Dasterdly. That bullet carries plenty of lube, down to the end of the 20" barrel on the '73.

Unfortunately, Ubertis in this caliber suffer from an extremely short throat. I cannot seat the bullet I've been using to the crimp groove and still get the rounds to chamber. In other words, cartridge is too long if crimp goove is exposed and employed. My work around for this situation has been the Lee Factory Crimp Die. So, before big matches, press testing every round has been a part of my preparation. (had a collapse with nine in the magazine last year -- it's hard to compete when you give up a minute to the other guys).

I'd really like to use a bullet that carries enough lube AND let's me employ the crimp groove for mechanical security. I recently got some "Black Dawg" bullets from Midway and they work great mechanically, and they look like they're carrying a lot of lube (we'll see). I don't, however, know what mould was used to make the Black Dawg pills.

Can you guys recommend a bullet that has worked well for you in these regards?

Thanks for any suggestions.

[Muddy Creek Sam]

Check these from Springfield aka Springfield Slim http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/Accessory%20page.htm They're below the leather on the right side.

Sam

[badgeredd]

I do not have a 38-40, but I would think that a 10mm/40 cal boolit like RCBS 10mm semi-wadcitter should feed well and since it has a fairly tapered nose (ala truncated cone) it would function and shoot well for you. I have loaded the 40143 Lyman boolit in both 10mm and 40 S&W and it was intended for the 38-40. Also Lee makes a truncated cone boolit for the 40 S&W (BUT it has a bevel base that you'd likely want to remove) that should work for you. Maybe this will be of some help.

Edd

[August]

I do not have a 38-40, but I would think that a 10mm/40 cal boolit like RCBS 10mm semi-wadcitter should feed well and since it has a fairly tapered nose (ala truncated cone) it would function and shoot well for you. I have loaded the 40143 Lyman boolit in both 10mm and 40 S&W and it was intended for the 38-40. Also Lee makes a truncated cone boolit for the 40 S&W (BUT it has a bevel base that you'd likely want to remove) that should work for you. Maybe this will be of some help.

Edd

Thanks Edd. I belive a truncated cone bullet is the answer. It has the best chance of clearing the lands and chambering full. Unfortunately, the TC designs for the .40/10mm are meant to be crimped with a taper crimp and, thus, don't have a crimp groove. I wish I could find a 10mm TC bullet with a crimp groove (and, deep lube grooves) !

[August]

Check these from Springfield aka Springfield Slim http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/Accessory%20page.htm They're below the leather on the right side.

Sam

Thanks! He uses the Big Lube mould that I've been employing for the past two years.

[Harry O]

I also shoot the 38-40. A Uberti Winchester 1873 clone and two Uberti Colt SAA clones. I would like to cast my own, but have not been able to do that yet.

I have a couple of old Lyman 40043 moulds (now 401043). Worked great in my handguns, but the bullet would occasionally be forced down into the case when in the rifle magazine. The Lyman does not have a crimp groove. No good for smokeless powder. Crimping in the forward lube groove did not work. I played around with a compressed case of FFFg. It worked. Never had a bullet push back into the case, but I could not get through a full day without cleaning the rifle at least once, and I should have done it after each stage. And accuracy did suffer towards the end.

I got a Lyman 401452. I currently use it with my handguns. It is way, WAAAAY too long to feed though a rifle, though. I don't fault it for that. It was not designed for the 38-40. I cast it between 40:1 and 50:1 and it works the best I have found in my handguns.

I have an RCBS 40-180. It is like the Lyman -- two lube grooves, but no crimp groove. Same problems with the Lyman.

I recently bought an NEI 40-195. First, it was supposed to be 195gr. It was actually 180gr. I didn't have a problem with that, but I thought it was sloppy. The bullet cast undersized about 0.0005" with Bhn 7 - 9 lead. On top of that, the crimping groove is placed too far back (the cartridge OAL is about 0.020"-0.030" to long). The rifle jams 10% to 20% of the time. No good all around. It works OK in the handguns, however.

The bullet I have been using in my rifle -- and it is the ONLY bullet I have found the works EVERY time is a Magma mould 180gr RNFP. It has a crimp groove in exactly the right place and it has never collapsed down into the case. I have been buying them from a number of different places. They range widely in price for the exact same bullet.

Because of the cost, I ONLY use the Magma in the rifle and I use the 401452 that I cast myself in the handguns. I would like to use the Lyman or RCBS in the handgun, but I don't want to have two different bullets that look alike, one of which will jam the gun or collapse into the case. Too easy to mix them up. So I use the 401452 since it looks completely different from the Magma. Of course, it shoots accurately, too. If I wasn't cheap, I would use the Magma for both, but I wouldn't be casting if I wasn't cheap.

[iron mule]

hey august i also shoot the 38-40 for cowboy action and use the bib lube that i cast myself // i have two sets of pistols one has good chambers and will take about any round dropped in unfortunatly these are my second choice for matches//// my main match guns have tight chambers and i had the same problem that you have to solve mine due to not being able to find a chamber reamer what i did was take my fulllendth sizeing die and removeabout 1/16 off the bottom don't forget to chamfer it after sanding it off i used a bench mounted disk sander and just took a little off at a time and keep it square // all rounds loaded with this die fit either guns no problems hope this will help

[August]

The bullet I have been using in my rifle -- and it is the ONLY bullet I have found the works EVERY time is a Magma mould 180gr RNFP. It has a crimp groove in exactly the right place and it has never collapsed down into the case. I have been buying them from a number of different places. They range widely in price for the exact same bullet.
.

Yup, I kind of suspect the Black Dawg bullet is the 180 grain Magma. As you say, crimp groove is in exactly the right place and makes a secure, mechanical relationship with the case. It's easy to get the seating die set up to seat and crimp that bullet in one swipe.

Magma moulds, I assume, must be used in their machinery, Right? At any rate, could you share your sources for that bullet?

FYI, the Big Lube bullet works in both rifle and pistol very well. It's just that it takes a Lee Factory Crimp die to taper crimp to the body of the bullet ahead of the crimp groove to make it all work.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

[Harry O]

Here are some of the places that sell Magma bullets:

Missouri Bullet Co.
Chey-Cast Bullets
Midstates Cast Bullets
Mastercast Bullets
Meister Cast Bullets
Colorado Cast Bullet
Moyer's Cast Bullets

Some say they are Magma. Some don't, but I have e-mailed them and asked. They have all said they are Magma. There is a wide range of cost, hardness, and lube on the above bullets. You can get them in soft-lead with BP lube (at extra cost) or hard-cast with hard lube and several versions are inbetween.

I started with the Chey-Cast (back when they were called Cheyenne Bullet Co), but they doubled their prices recently and it is very difficult to get ahold of them by phone. I think it might have changed hands. I am now using Missouri Bullets as the least costly. They work just as well as Chey-Cast at 2/3 the price. I have not personally ordered from the others.

I have seen used Magma moulds at a few gunshows. They are not cut for handles. Also, the sprue plate is "funky". I don't know if a hand-caster could use it. With a machinist on staff, it could be remade for hand casting. However, a custom one might work as well (does anyone know if Mountain Man moulds is back in business?).

[Harry O]

I forgot to mention: I ground off a little bit off the bottom of my sizing dies like iron mule. Different reason than what you mentioned, but it makes everything easier.

Compare an unfired 38-40 case from the factory. The neck is long. After firing, it is much shorter. After sizing in ordinary dies, the neck is not lengthened. With different guns with slightly different neck lengths (tolerances), this can sometimes cause a little bit of a seating problem. Shortening the die lengthens the neck. That makes sure that the flared portion of the case is not what is hitting and causing the seating problem. I have shortened my 32-20, 38-40, and 44-40 dies. Mine are about 0.060" to 0.075" shorter depending on the caliber.

It is easy to shorten the sizing die without a lathe. I rigged up a jig that held the die and fit in a 1/2" drill I have (it could have been made for a 3/8" drill). Then I held it to the side of a grinding wheel. With both the drill and the grinding wheel turning, it was easy to get a square bottom cut. Just measure often. It is very easy to take off too much (I ruined the first one I tried). After doing the majority of the cutting, a hand file can be used to clean it up. You do have to break the internal edges with a file after doing this.

[Springfield]

FYI, Magma dies can be made to work for hand casting. Just ask the guys at Magma.

[Speedo66]

I've tried various bullets in my original 38-40 1873, and find that the 180g round nose flat point from Missouri bullet company load easily, work fine in the action, and are very accurate, as well as being fairly inexpensive.

They ship quickly, and come well packaged to prevent postal accidents.

[JMtoolman]

It seems to me, (a retired machinest) that you are overthinking the problem. Why not just get a throating reamer with a 3 degree included angle and ream out the barrel a bit. Probably improve the groups also. Its about a 45 second job which can be gone by hand with an extension and a tap handle, after removing the barrel. Solves all the problems at the same time and opens up the use of different projectiles. Best regards, John the toolman.

[w30wcf]

August,
The answer may be as simple as using your LEE Factory Crimp die which uses a collet to put pressure against the end of the case neck. Thus It produces a deep crimp and will even
reduce the nose diameter of the bullet if adjusted to do so!

Turn the LFCD down a bit more in the press and you should find that the forward portion of the bullet will reduce possibly enough to fit your rifle.

I would definitely suggest that first so that you can continue to use the "Big Lube" bullets. Another option would be to seat them deeper into the case after reducing the b.p. charge slightly to allow that with, say, .10" of compression. Then crimp on the ogive. The capacity load of b.p. will prevent the bullet from telescoping into the case.

Other than that, the Magma .44-40 bullet I have has a single lube groove as does the pic of the .38-40 bullet on their website. The 2 lube groove bullet just might have been made on a special order.

I have a box of the Black Dawge black powder bullets but in .44-40 caliber. I was a bit disappointed that bullet holds a little less b.p. lube than the Lyman 427098 which is a copy of the original .44-40 bullet. (.6 vs .7 grs.)

Soooo........there is a good chance that the Lyman copy of the original .38-40 b.p. bullet (#401043) just might hold more lube than the Magma .38-40 offering.....and besides, it would be historically correct........


w30wcf

[MTMarfield]

Greetings!

Some years back, I picked up a Lyman #401638 HP Mould that drops them at about 155 gr., or so. I bought it with the intent to try them in my SAA, and New Service. This bullet is Very Accurate; it hits a little low with standard powder charges, but hits to the sights with slightly warmer loads.

Be Well!

M.T.Marfield

[Don McDowell]

In addtion to the lyman mold, the rcbs is a close to historical style, and holds enough lube for blackpowder needs.

[405]

I'll second the RCBS 40-180-C as a very good bullet for the 38-40s.
I think as others have posted many of the commercial cast CAS 38-40s are with Magma molds
One company if still in business that sells, at reasonable price, very good CAS bullets is Desperado out of Dayton WA.