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Thread: American Pioneer Powder

  1. #21
    Boolit Bub
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
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    North central Ohio
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    36

    PinnAcle

    Greetings, Gentlemen,

    My .600 Gillon project is complete. Took a little while to arrive at a good load that was satisfying to me and "Thumper". I started with Elephant ffg. Full case(43 gr) only gave 450 fps velocity. Not fast enough. Changed to Goex fffg. Worked up to full case(43 gr). Gave 680 fps. Wow! By George, now we are cooking. Shot 15 rounds. Cylinder rotation got too stiff from fouling to rotate without help. Also latch screw is starting to bend, loosening frame lockup slightly.

    After cleaning revolver and straightening latch screw, I ran out and bought a can of Pinnacle fffg to try. I compressed 45 gr in cartridge. Shot 20 rounds for average of 600 fps. Still has a pretty hefty recoil with lots of fire and smoke. A BIG NASTY for it's day. Latch loosened ever so slightly. I have settled on this loading, and will make a new latch screw from 4140. Should take care of that problem.

    A word on my experience with Pinnacle. It is a very coarse powder. fffg looks like ffg black. Doesn't have the power of fffg black, which in my case is what I wanted. It doesn't foul like black. After 20 rounds, the cylinder turned just as free as before I started. I could look through the bore and see the rifling. It leaves a smooth waxy coating in the bore. Manufacturer claims no black powder lube is required. I believe them. Clean up is very easy using Hoppe's #9+. Don't need to worry about what soot blows into the action. I sprayed a little WD-40 into it. Blew it out with air, and lubed with Ballistol. One word on cases. I made the mistake of putting the cases in the tumbler without prior cleaning. The tumbling media stuck to the waxy substance and made a mess. Had to wash the cases in hot soapy water, then solvent, before putting them back in tumbler. Carry a jar of detergent water with you when you shoot, and drop the fired cases into it immediately. When you get home just rinse, dry, and tumble.

    BTW, boolit weighs 457 grains.

    Regards, Ralph.
    Boy, I love these old guns.....

  2. #22
    Boolit Master





    Old Ironsights's Avatar
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    I really agree that APP is best left to wheel guns where fouling is a real problem, and high-pressure/velocity is not desired.

    IMO It's too inconsistant in (my) rifles for my taste.
    A Democrat that owns Guns is like a Vegan that owns Cats...
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  3. #23
    Boolit Master

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    I have decided that I am going back to black. it cost less, has a longer shelf life ( Indefinite) than some of the substitues, and is consistant shot to shot. As far as the smell goes when cleaning I live by my self so I guess I can put up with that and to be honest no matter what the substitutes say they all need cleaning when done because even if they are not corrosive they are hydroscopic and attract moisture so a gun shot and left with out cleaning in a humid or damp climate could still rust. I suppose in a dry climate you would not have to worry about it as fast but where I live in WI I know if I do not clean them they will rust so using black is not an problem as the gun has to be cleaned anyway. Also the local shop carries black so getting it is not an issue either. I looked at the price of Pinnicle today 23 bucks the same price as 777 and I suppose APP. I am not willing to buy another can of something and be maybe disatisfied with the results. I know what to expect out of Black Powder as I have shot enough of it in the past.
    A gun is like a parachute: If you need one and don't have one, you won't be needing one again.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master
    cabezaverde's Avatar
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    I like the APP powder.

    Once the weather breaks, I am going to try an experiment. I plan to throw 10 loads with my powder measure and calculate the average weight in grains.

    Then I will pre weigh some charges and see if that helps to iron out some of the consistency issues. I only shoot my ML occasionally (hunting), so this is not a great deal of work given the few shots fired. I will also chrono the results to see if consistency improves.

    My son killed 2 deer with the stuff last season, he is happy with it.
    Founder of the Single Shot section.

    A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you have.


    8 in the 10 ring, then I get a PING. Love my Garand.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master twotoescharlie's Avatar
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    it also makes good fertilizer

    TTC
    NRA life member (benefactor)

  6. #26
    Boolit Bub
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    Jul 2007
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    Renfrew ON Canada
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    I have used the 3F APP in my Blackhawk .45 Colt and it works well although it does make a gray mess around the cylinder and muzzle, a little hot water is all that it takes to clean it up. I also use it in my Knight LK 93 and have used the square sticks although with #11 caps I didn't get reliable ignition, (hangfire) with the 3F I had no trouble on -20 F days or around .32 F and damp. I don't like Pyrodex because of the smell and its corrosive hygroscopic aspect. I shoot Goex 2F with .490 balls and a prelubed patch just for a fun target load at 50 metres when I take out kids and new BP shooters . I would rather use the real stuff than Pyrodex any day but all shooters and guns have their preferences.

    Just stay down wind from me at the range if your using Pyrodex.

  7. #27
    Boolit Man
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    first 5 shots out of my 38/40 bisley cut 2"@25yd w/the stuff,but after that was shotgun pattern.smells good though.

  8. #28
    Boolit Bub alleyyooper's Avatar
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    Talking

    Back in the 90's I read about some of these new black powder subs being the next best thing to honey on toast. Soon after that I bought my first inline a Remington 700 54cal. Along with the new inline I brought home a bottle of clean shot. I really like the stuff in the inline and bought a couple more bottles while working up loads. My brother bought it in pellet form for his T/C Black Diamond, was fun to watch the smoking pettets arc out to the target. Those pellets brought the law suit that made the company fold but come alive again as AAP. I bought some for the 54 couldn't get any type of groups with any charge or projectile. I sat the stuff on a shelf with the lid tight. I bought T 7 to try and was pleased with it.
    Recently I bought a used 50cal 700, Worked up a load useing T7, 80gr T7, 230gr HP XTP in a green MMP sabot.
    Just put a new scope on it and adjusted the trigger so decided to get some range time.I decided that I am part scott and can not see pouring that AAP out or just plain wasting it so I threw it into the shooting box.
    After getting the scope set I decided to see what I could do with that at least 5 year old AAP stuff.
    Well low and behold it was clumped a bit but a couple of pokes with the short starter got it loose again.
    At 100gr. I got as good 50 yard groups as I do with 80gr. T7. At the same cost T7 is a better value.
    The results swabing ever other shot.



    Goex is not sold in this area. It is a two hour drive to the nearest outlet. With hasmat fees and fuel cost T7 bought on spring close out for $11.00 a pound is the best value for me.

    Al
    Garden View Apiaries, where the view is as sweet as the honey.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master northmn's Avatar
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    I have tried Pyrodex and 777 but not Pioneer as I have been soured on the use of substitue powders in the more traditional BP rifles. While Pioneer is said to be usable in flintlocks I have notice that Shocky, its promoter, uses 209 type ML's for his hunting. The biggest problem I have had is that of ignition with any of the stuff. I though I would try to use up the pyrodex in my 50 ML and tried it at 100 yards with poor results (hardly would stay on the paper) The equivalent measure of BP shot about 2 - 3 inches with iron sights. 777 and the better grade of pyrodex work in BP cartridge guns great. May use the stuff up in my BP cartridge shotgun loads.

    Mnshooter

  10. #30
    Boolit Man ridurall's Avatar
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    I've got a 2 or 3 year old bottle of APP and it shoots great in my 45/70 with 522 gr Postel bullet. You do have to keep it in a tight lid container. Don't use a flask. It is very hydroscopic and will draw moisture out of the air. It's one of the cleanest burning powders I've used. You don't ever have to stop shooting to clean because of fouling. You don't want a lub disk to contact the powder or it will effect the performance. You don't need the lub disk anyway. I am still shooting lubed Lyman 457132 bullets that have been sized and lubed. I have yet to shoot the black powder in my Shiloh Sharps but one of these days I'm going to give it a try.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check