".22 short..."

[exile]

So, since cabin fever is in full force, I was thinking,

"Would it be possible to purchase a Ruger 22/45 pistol, lighten the bolt in some way, put a spacer in the magazine and voila, have an inexpensive semi-auto pistol in .22 short?"

If you could buy another bolt somehow, then you could simply replace the factory bolt assembly and shoot .22 long-rifle out of the same pistol. Great for use with a pellet trap maybe in the garage when the weather is bad like it is now. Am I totally off base here?

I have only seen one semi-auto in .22 short with a decent barrel length and adjustable sights, that is a High Standard, but not surprisingly it was about $ 1600.00 at a gun show.

The Ruger would be wonderfully light in weight, even more so with an after-market barrel put on it. If it was a Mark III, you could even put a scope on it.

exile

[stubshaft]

I don't see why it couldn't be done. S&W made a "kit" to allow the Mdl 41 to shoot shorts. I think that the hardest part of the conversion would be to alter the magazine. If you could get your hands on another bolt you would only have to lighten it up to be able to function with the short round and also lighten the recoil spring. It would STILL be noisey in the confines of a cabin. I think you would be better off just getting ahold of some CCI CB Longs and using those. Wouldn't be able to function as an auto loader but would be alot quieter.

[Bullshop Junior]

I don't see why, when here 22 shorts are more then twice the price as 22 LR and just about as hard to get.

[Johnch]

At 1 time Varquarthin ( sp) made a 22 short conversion kit for a Mk2
As the bols are the same , the bolt would work

But the magazine wouldn't
Maybe they also made a kit for the 22/45 to use the mag

Never used one
But I belieive some on from my club used one , but that has been years

John

[yondering]

I don't see why, when here 22 shorts are more then twice the price as 22 LR and just about as hard to get.

Agreed. What would be the point? Shorts are twice as expensive, harder to find, just as loud in a pistol, and no less lethal or dangerous.

If you want to shoot indoors, use CB Longs or Aquila Super Colibri ammo.

There used to be a point to using 22 Short, when Long or Long Rifle were more expensive or harder to find. That was a long long time ago.

[jhrosier]

I believe that the .22 short conversions for the Ruger pistols all had aluminum bolts.
But I could be mistaken.
In any case, the ISU shooting with the shorts was a speed game shot at turning targets.
It did not require a great deal of accuracy.

Jack

[BruceB]

(Ahem) The Olympic Rapid Fire Event is BOTH an accuracy and a speed game, which is why the .22 Short became the chosen caliber for the event. It was the minimum cartridge for functionality AND minimal recoil. Match-quality ammo is both very accurate and very expensive.

The match is fired in strings of five rounds at FIVE SEPARATE TARGETS in each string. The targets are edge-on to the shooter, and the timing period starts when the targets are faced to the shooter. The range is twenty-five meters.

The match has total of 600 possible points, with four 5-round strings fired in 8 seconds each (not too bad), four strings fired in six seconds each (gotta move right along here) and four strings in FOUR seconds each (a REAL test). The gun must be held in only one hand, and the firing arm must be below 45 degrees from horizontal until the targets begin to face the shooter.

So.... five rounds to fire in four seconds at five different targets, and it usually takes about 1.25-1.5 seconds to get the first shot away.

No accuracy? Those targets (at 25 meters or 27.5 yards, remember) have a ten-ring diameter of 100mm or roughly 4 inches. Try hitting five of those in four seconds, starting from low-ready and one-handed, including your reaction time. By comparison, IPSC and IDPA targets are laughably large, and CLOSE. I've competed in those games as well, and know whereof I speak.

I've fired a few perfect scores in the four-second stage, but it's danged rare for me and I remember every single occasion. Shooting the Olympic Rapid-fire match on a proper range is a humbling experience, believe me.

[Finster101]

My dad picked up an old Winchester gallery rifle at a yard sale a while back. Pump chambered in .22 short only. I would think the reduced load of the short would lend itself to indoor firing well. As mentioned befor though, good luck finding them.

[exile]

Good points all, like I said just a thought. So, CB caps would do the trick? Would a lighter recoil spring allow the pistol to function as a semi-auto with CB caps?

exile

[jhrosier]

Bruce,
I have not shot the Olympic Rapid Fire Event, but I have shot both the steel challenge matches and Hunters pistol shilhouette, and based my comment as you did on both the accuracy and speed requirements.
I don't see 4" at 25m to be terribly challenging for the guns and ammo available today.
Granted, adding the time factor adds considerably to the challenge for the shooter.

I would also be surprised to see a shooter who is trying to save money buy expensive match grade .22 short ammo, even if they could get it.

What best average sized groups are your rapid fire match guns capable of holding?

How do these groups compare to what would be required for the slow fire matches?

I also remember when .22 shorts were a cheap alternative to LR. I think that shorts were about 15 cents a box cheaper than long rifle. My alllowance was only 35 cents a week in those days so that was an important consideration.

Jack

[jhrosier]

Good points all, like I said just a thought. So, CB caps would do the trick? Would a lighter recoil spring allow the pistol to function as a semi-auto with CB caps?

exile

exile,
I don't think that the CB caps would have enough power to overcome the hammer spring, never mind the recoil spring.

Jack

[calaloo]

I had a friend who owned one of the High Standard Olympic pistols in .22 Short. He squrrell hunted with it and also shot bull frogs with a light at night. He could hit golf balls tossed into the air EVERY TIME. If he missed the first shot (rare) he would allways get it on the second. To reach this level he shot a brick of ammo each week.

At the same time I had a High Standard Mod. 107 Military chambered for .22 long rifle. I bought a factory modified magizine for this pistol that had a spacer along the front edge so that it would only accept shorts. I also got a spare recoil spring and lightened a bit at a time untill the bolt would cycle with shorts. I had a lot of fun shooting shorts but never got as good as my buddy.

[BruceB]

Good morning, Jack.

Heavens no, there's no need for anyone to buy the match ammo unless actually shooting the match. It would be special order, for one thing, and probably over ten bucks per 50!

At 25 meters, the test targets that accompany new guns show one-hole accuracy (Hammerlis, Walthers etc.) You sure couldn't prove it by my shooting.

The slow-fire (Standard Pistol) is fired entirely at 25 meters, slow, timed, and rapid fire under the same timing periods as NRA Bullseye except that slow fire strings are five rounds in 2.5 minutes. The target is the 50-meter free pistol target, moved up to 25 meters.

The REAL "slow fire" match is Free Pistol, fired at 50 meters with 60 rounds fired in 2.5 HOURS. This is a daunting challenge, and in well-over 100 years I don't believe there's been a perfect score fired in this match. These pistols shoot groups like target rifles, often under 1/2" at 50 meters from a machine rest.

I'll say this: you may THINK there's not much difficulty in 4" at 25 meters, but there are legions of world-class shooters who would disagree with you. Try hitting five clay targets, spaced two feet apart, one-handed in four seconds at that distance from low ready....see what you think then.

Yep, I too recall when .22 Shorts were 53 cents per box, and Long Rifles ran 77 cents. My rifle saw a lot more Shorts than the more-expensive stuff.

[yondering]

Would a lighter recoil spring allow the pistol to function as a semi-auto with CB caps?

exile

No, not even close. The CB's are just a gallery load, and don't have anywhere near the power required to cycle the action. They are quieter, will kill squirrels, and can usually be cycled from the magazine when the bolt is operated by hand.

If you want a cheap semi-auto with less recoil (I can only assume recoil is your reason for wanting this?), stick with subsonic 22 LR ammo. Your gun may likely need some minor tuning or modification to cycle with subsonics. The Aquila 38gr subsonic HP is about the lightest and quietest I've found.

[exile]

Recoil??? No less noise was my thought.

exile

[yondering]

Recoil??? No less noise was my thought.

exile

CB caps or subsonic LR ammo with a supressor is the way to go then. 22 Short is still too loud to shoot without ear protection from a pistol. CB Longs are marginal, but quiet enough to not bother neighbors if they aren't right next door.

Naturally, a longer barrel is quieter, if the gun is not supressed.

Sounds like a good excuse to get a supressor!

[yondering]

Since you did ask how this could be done, not why, here are my thoughts based on experience:

You can lighten the bolt and recoil spring, but the hammer spring is the real pain. You may find that even with a light bolt and no recoil spring, a 22 Short won't have enough recoil to cock the hammer, without serious modification to the gun. You can lighten the hammer spring only so much, before you get misfires. Beyond that, it helps some to grind a larger radius on the portion of the bolt that rides over the hammer. This allows the cocking motion to be spread out over longer bolt travel rather than just the first 1/2" or so. (This is a good modification for any semi-auto that shoots subsonics.)

You also may not find a good balance in recoil spring weight; too light and it won't strip rounds from the magazine, too heavy and it won't cycle.

You'll need to do a lot of polishing to the bolt, hammer face, and inside the receiver.

If you get it to work, it will need to be cleaned pretty often, and kept well lubed.

Good luck.

[Johnch]

Recoil??? No less noise was my thought.

exile

Not exactly sure why , probely powder burn rate
But I have shot Remington 22 CB Longs out of my 5.5" Mk2
And they are almost as loud as a Subsonic 22 lr pistol match ammo

I shot the CB Longs to limmit the penatration while shooting coon inside the barn
AKA no holes in the tin roof after passing through a decent coon on the barn beam

John