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Thread: part # 1 paper patching the ML

  1. #61
    Boolit Master Nobade's Avatar
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    In my 45 cal. Gonic inline I shoot nothing but paper patched boolits. Any more, it is the 400gr. .442" slick from Accurate molds. I have finally (I think) settled on a wad stack I like. Dump powder, seat a .030" LDPE wad and compress it as hard as I can with the range rod. Then a 1/8" felt wad, lubed with Gatofeo #1 (mutton tallow, beeswax, and Gulf wax) and then a thin card wad. All wads are seated slowly to allow them to scrape the bore. Then the boolit is seated on top, it slides down with the weight of the ramrod and is given a gentle push to seat. Loaded this way, I can easily fire 15 shots before it starts to get sticky to load. Today it was holding just barely over MOA at 100 and 200 yards, using 85gr. of my ho'made powder or 65gr. of Swiss 1 1/2F. It has taken me a while to be able to consistently be able to make it do this, but I think I am finally there - at least the last four outings with it produced similar results. I messed around with so many different wads over the years and so far this is the best I have tried.

    -Nobade

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobade View Post
    In my 45 cal. Gonic inline I shoot nothing but paper patched boolits. Any more, it is the 400gr. .442" slick from Accurate molds. I have finally (I think) settled on a wad stack I like. Dump powder, seat a .030" LDPE wad and compress it as hard as I can with the range rod. Then a 1/8" felt wad, lubed with Gatofeo #1 (mutton tallow, beeswax, and Gulf wax) and then a thin card wad. All wads are seated slowly to allow them to scrape the bore. Then the boolit is seated on top, it slides down with the weight of the ramrod and is given a gentle push to seat. Loaded this way, I can easily fire 15 shots before it starts to get sticky to load. Today it was holding just barely over MOA at 100 and 200 yards, using 85gr. of my ho'made powder or 65gr. of Swiss 1 1/2F. It has taken me a while to be able to consistently be able to make it do this, but I think I am finally there - at least the last four outings with it produced similar results. I messed around with so many different wads over the years and so far this is the best I have tried.

    -Nobade
    Dude I did not know you were making your own BP.That,s really cool.

    Fly

  3. #63
    Boolit Master Nobade's Avatar
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    Yep, about a year now. It was your writing about it that finally pushed me over the edge to start accumulating the tools to start doing that. Works great now! I am even getting other guys around here into it so several of us are all learning.

    -Nobade

  4. #64
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    If anyone's interested, 100% rag drafting vellum is available in big sheets or by the roll from various places. Hobby Lobby has 24" rolls. I prefer the E-size sheets or rolls intended for J-size drawings. There's a lot of patches in a few E-size sheets.

  5. #65
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    well itz bean a bit since this STICKY got an addition. so here is the addition.

    was inspired to go shoot my encore the other day ... while I shot it I longed for a more traditional feeling rifle so the next day I brought two rifles ... the 50 renegade and the encore 50x209.

    I had this Lyman 370 grain muzzleloader mold so as I had never even cast 1 boolit with it ... I took it out and cast around 30 boolits with it ... they are very pretty and shiney in the pure lead boolits. I pan lubed them with my bee wax/vasoline mix to take out for a run with em. I also had some of the 450 grain Baco hollow base boolits patched up and took them for the occasion too.

    the 370 grain Lyman loaded very nice with little effort in either rifle ... however ... having been accustomed to the patched boolit accuracy ... the Lymans scattered all over the place ... like an idjit I chased the boolit holes with the sight adjustment for a bit. both rifles just hated the boolit so I stopped shooting it when I ran out of them ... LOL ... nobody said I was normal or terribly smart.

    in addition ... when I got the renegade home and did my deep clean on it I see that I had a lead miner and the bore took some effort to get it cleaned up from the lead in there. too soft I recon.

    next I loaded the patched boolits and walla the accuracy came back in the encore ... however I now was outta powder sooo ... will have to take the renegade out when I get some more boolits papered for the occasion.

    just smiled at myself when I chased the hole position with sight adjustment as I really couldn't accept that the greasers would scatter so badly. spent a lot of time and burned some powder but I got em outta my system. now on and forward with the patched boolits in my muzzleloaders. what a nice way to spend the afternoon. and fairly cheap to boot.

    there ... now that we are back on the radar in this STICKY ... I can rest and watch for other posts on the subject.
    Last edited by bigted; 04-03-2014 at 02:39 PM.
    WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE...MORE WILL BE SAID THEN DONE

  6. #66
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    Hey ted what Paper patched bullets are you using in the renegade? Ron

  7. #67
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    Ron ... the boolit is from a mold that I had Tom at Accurate molds make ... # 492325P. [EDIT... the number at accurate is 50-325P ... the mold I got from him as requested is a .492 diameter special on the 50-325P mold thus the number on my mold is 492325P which I see is not listed on his web site] ... it is a fairly short boolit and seems to be liked in the Renegade as well as the faster twist Encore. if I can get the bucket to work tonight I will post pic's of my procedure.



    I wrap wet ... maybe wet is not the word but {SOAKING WET} however showin is better then tellin.









    then I twist the tails only because I hate finding pieces of paper on my wiping stick after I have the boolit/vegi wad solid against the powder. usually I only fold over the base enough to just barely cover the base but then those are for cartridges with blackpowder.



    then after being in a 120 degree oven for a half hour they are ready to snip the tail off.





    then all that is left is shoveling in 70 grains of GOEX 2F powder followed by a .060 card and then the paper patched boolit ... then ram it home and take the shot.

    I swabbed the bore between shots just to see where I was accuracy wise and the Renegade with peep sight rear and blade front AND my old cloudy eyes shot into around 2.5 inch at 75 yards. the Encore now ... way different story ... scoped with a nice Leopold scope very clear I managed to be able to cover the first 2 boolit holes with a quarter at the same 75 yard range. ran outta the 337 grain accurate boolits then and switched over to the 450 grain Baco slicks ... but they do not do as well in either rifle.

    these little short 50 cal slick boolits beginning at .492 inch and being patched with Baco's onion skin to .499 inch really do well in my rifles. now to see if they will repeat themselves ... maybe tomorrow ... I will try for some target pic's but no guarantee.
    Last edited by bigted; 04-04-2014 at 01:31 PM.
    WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE...MORE WILL BE SAID THEN DONE

  8. #68
    Boolit Master Nobade's Avatar
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    Ted, thanks for the pics! That Accurate boolit looks a lot like the NEI one I use in my 50 cal. rifles. You might try tailless patching them, I have done them both ways and leaving the base flat with no tail always shoots better. That dent in the base seems to unbalance them I think. I like the tubes for storing your boolits! I have been using 45 ACP boxes but the tubes are a lot more compact and easier to get them out of.

    -Nobade

  9. #69
    Boolit Master
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    I will try the tailless next time ... but ... when I wrapped the 450 grain hollow base from Baco ... I occasionally shucked the outside layer of paper ... too tight and with no size push thru to ensure the correct diameter is the reason I suspect. these however cast so nice and the diameter is just rite it seems ... so ... I will revisit the tailless patching with them.

    been awhile since I let my hair down so to speak and played with the muzzleloaders that I forgot the lazy fun day to be had with them. the old ways are so much more comfortable to me that when I get back to basics ... I wonder what took me so long getting back to it.

    I don't believe these patched boolits are any where close to traditional ... but ... accuracy wise they are the shiz niz when hitting tiny groups is a desire at the longer yards. ... RON ... I see that you posted on the "traditional" site and got accepted there with your brave attempt. I ... in the past ... have attempted some off traditional subjects and soundly got spanked for it. GOOD ON YA.
    WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE...MORE WILL BE SAID THEN DONE

  10. #70
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    First off Ted, those are great looking bullets. I have never even shot any of my original barrels. All of mine were purchased knowing that they were rusted out. I got them just for the stocks. I am super curious about how the deeper groves handle those bullet.
    It is funny, I have had to fight off the PRB boys there and believe me it was tough and still remains tough at times. But a large group of guys there have accepted my ways. One moderator there gives me grief and we but heads a lot but I don't post there as much as I used to.
    Can you post a picture of those 450's that you say didn't shoot well? Have you thought about them not shooting well because of the softness of the lead? I have alloyed my bullets over the last few years just a pinch and have seen my groups do better and they work better on game. Ron

  11. #71
    Boolit Master Nobade's Avatar
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    If they give anybody grief, just tell them to read Ned Roberts' The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle. This is about as traditional as it gets, at least post 1840 or so. OK, maybe not with inlines.....

    -Nobade

  12. #72
    Boolit Master
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    Ron ... yes I will get a couple photo's of the Baco 450 grain boolits. the alloy thing is worth a try as well. I have my cartridge boolit mix that seems like a 20 or 30 to 1 mix so maybe I will cast a few of those of that mix and shoot them to see if the accuracy is on par. as to the Renegade barrel ... it is borderline rough in the rifling edges. it seems like the edges are chipped somehow and has been so when I purchased the rifle used ... but it seems to want to shoot well and the peep sight is a bit better on my eyes so I will try to post a couple targets of these accurate boolits patched up and shot thru the Renegade.

    the inline Encore seems to like em very well and shoots to point very well ... must confess I have a scope mounted on the Encore so this is a reason for the better accuracy with it.

    I very much like the way these load. very easy down the barrel and seem to snuggle up on the powder well and I hope that they will stay put on a walk about. have to load one and do some hiking around for a few hours and see if they move ... shouldn't move as they are dry unlubed boolits and squeak a bit going down the bore. it is getting very shiny and smooth also a lot easier to clean and swab out after the shot.
    WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE...MORE WILL BE SAID THEN DONE

  13. #73
    Boolit Master
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    so here is the photo's of the buff arms .492 inch 450 grain hollow base boolits I began messing with. they are slick as can be seen and I worry that they are too pointed for hunting ... what with the chance of marring or molesting the nose section on loading and thusely ruin accuracy. im all out of them so these are the last few I have so I may have to order another box for further experimenting as I think that if they will perform and withstand the loading pressure ... they should be great hunters ... if the mix is soft enough to expand proper at these velocity's. I always figured that shooting these with 70 grains BP pushing them along ... they should equal the old 50-70 round that was no slouch in the game getting arena.

    I posted them beside my new 337 grain slicks that seem to be casting very well and shooting equally well in my rifles. the final patch boolit diameter of both boolits comes out at .499 with the onionskin paper.



    Last edited by bigted; 04-05-2014 at 10:49 AM.
    WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE...MORE WILL BE SAID THEN DONE

  14. #74
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    I think you might be right. The front end might be a bit too sharp for hunting. A bullet that pointed and long is going to need alloy to keep from slumping in my opinion. I do like a wide meplat for slamming game. That said I bet they would be wicked accurate in my fast twist with 8 or 9 BHN hard lead. They look great!

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by RBak View Post
    At the same time, just as many are trying to make do with what they have in a GG and are not interested in shots over two zip codes, or who won the latest Championship.

    I think Ron is right, this seems to have become a thread about smooth versus GG, and that is not how it started, or even what it's about.

    Russ
    I use gas check bullets frequently in my muzzleloaders... the first was a 470 grain bullet closely resembling the Lyman 457121 called at the time.. the Mose Copper Cruiser. He also has a 50 he made for my Austin Halleck at .499 bore... and both just super shooters... I've also a copper gas check .410... here is the deal with gas checks in MY OPINION. Charge is no problem, leading is non-existant, and fouling is reduced overall. I also use card wads for all shooting, whether a patched ball or gas check bullet without the gas check or anything else... it helps me with my load consistency... powder, wad and tamp.... bullet/ball

  16. #76
    Boolit Bub Silence is golden's Avatar
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    This is what my Lyman GPR likes it is a LEE .540-415M mold that drops a 425gr. Bullet and it is patched with standard 8.5"x11" copy paper and when powered by a 40gr. Charge of 3f it is very accurate.


  17. #77
    Boolit Master newton's Avatar
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    Ron sent me some PP because I am gonna try this system out this year, and in return I told him I would make a PDF of the patches so others could print off and have a template to go from. Well, it was not as easy as I thought to make one so I just got the measurements put on paper instead. Should allow someone a quick way of getting a patch template up and going for use with the boolits he uses. The measurements were hard to get on a piece of paper, but should be pretty close.

    I don't have time to mess with the system I was doing, so I feel confident that his is right on. Even got me 3 cans of pyro P to work with. I'll be using a greyhawk mainly, and while its 1:48, I still feel like the S&W boolit will be fine in it. I do have a GM LRH barrel also, but would rather try the greyhawk for now. I know for sure it will work in the GM barrel as its the same as you use Ron, but its blued not stainless. The greyhawk is stainless. Thanks again for the help.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  18. #78
    Boolit Master
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    nice to see this thread rise again. i just moved to Oregon so will be a bit to get everything back in workin order. nice of ya to post those patch's for copy.
    WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE...MORE WILL BE SAID THEN DONE

  19. #79
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    newton, Thanks for posting the template. I will be interested to see how the 1-48 twist handles the 460 gr bullets. Ron

  20. #80
    Boolit Master newton's Avatar
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    I will be too. I did the calculations and the GH formula does not favor it, but got to try it anyways. Looks like I would need to be pushing it at 2400 fps to get the formula to be right for a 1:48 twist. lol. I aint about to try that. It will be a while, but I'll give a short report back on here how it goes.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check