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Thread: part # 1 paper patching the ML

  1. #41
    Boolit Master RMulhern's Avatar
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    Idahoron

    This was NEVER about caliber; rather about LEAD cast bullets being sufficent for killing game!
    "The South died with Stonewall Jackson!"

  2. #42
    Boolit Master
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    The original thread was about paper patching muzzleloaders now your talking about BPCR's. I gave facts that supports that cast lead bullets do take game. If you would like to discuss smooth sides and groves, or appropriate calibers for game or BPCR's you need to start another thread. Ron
    Last edited by idahoron; 01-21-2011 at 11:29 PM.

  3. #43
    Boolit Master nanuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMulhern View Post
    .....Those GG create a lot of drag ....
    as long as they remain supersonic, I don't think the GG would create MORE drag.

    I have read studies that show disrupting a laminar flow (if that is the correct term) actually can reduce the drag, albeit slightly

  4. #44
    Boolit Master RMulhern's Avatar
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    Smooth vs groove!

    Quote Originally Posted by idahoron View Post
    Idaho is the same way.
    RMulhern, You have to use a 50 cal muzzleloader or larger for elk. Look for your self on page 67
    Like Nobade has said this is getting WAY off topic. If you want a thread about smooth vs groves you can start another thread.
    Ron

    http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/cms/hun...ll_booklet.pdf
    I don't think so! I believe it fit quite well...right in this post! Apparently a couple of other posters seemed to think so as well.
    "The South died with Stonewall Jackson!"

  5. #45
    Boolit Master


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    I don't think so! I believe it fit quite well...right in this post! Apparently a couple of other posters seemed to think so as well.
    At the same time, just as many are trying to make do with what they have in a GG and are not interested in shots over two zip codes, or who won the latest Championship.

    I think Ron is right, this seems to have become a thread about smooth versus GG, and that is not how it started, or even what it's about.

    Russ
    When it comes to Muzzle Loaders, Black Powder Matters.

  6. #46
    Boolit Master
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    RMulhern and other jarheads,
    It's a STICKY! Read the title and stick to the subject matter! It's called a sticky cause you need to stick to the subject, which is "paper patching the ML" and that is refering to boolit. 10 ga
    10 gauge: as per Robert Ruark, "use enough gun"

    MOLON LABE

    "I have a list, and am prepared for widespread civil disorder!" 10 ga

  7. #47
    Boolit Master RMulhern's Avatar
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    Sticky

    10ga.

    It's a STICKY.....because it has to stay here and be read over and over cuz some of these jarheads.....have to read multiple times for it to SINK IN!!
    "The South died with Stonewall Jackson!"

  8. #48
    Boolit Master
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    well im just as impressed with the fact that one can and obviously do hunt with a patched gg boolit and that it seems more accurate in hunting ranges then a regular patched ball or a gg boolit in a muzzleloader. personally i dont know a hunter woth a **** that would ever shoot at a game animal that is farther away then 200 yards anyway. this is still at muzzleloader velocitys and needs to be stated that the strange behaviour of some that want to lob boolits from 4 to 8 hundred yards to hunt game thusly are not sportsmen to my thinking as the loss versus find of the game shot at these ranges are well documented.

    the begining of this thread/stickie was "PAPER PATCHING THE MUZZLELOADER". i have a hunch that the patching will do both jobs.....both paper shooting as well as game shooting/hunting. the difference is the humane arena. paper targets will not [hopefully] bleed...nor will they run away and hide to die later from a wound that didnt kill them fast and prudently....however the paper is also a good "judge" as to what is the very most accurate and at a cost of simple experimenting whitch is the fun stuff for a bunch a guys.

    the hot tempers of which boolit is most accurate should be tempered by all and embraced by all with no stuborn "my way or the hiway" attitudes. this kinda atittude kept us in the dark for so many years and left only a few to keep experimenting to "improve" our sport whether it is my way or yours. please cool the jets as there are still us who read to learn and not to jump on a side.

    lets leave the politics to the idiots in washington and various gouvernment places and help our sport to continue to grow........"TOGETHER"
    WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE...MORE WILL BE SAID THEN DONE

  9. #49
    Boolit Master nanuk's Avatar
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    back on topic

    is it necessary to have a grease cookie if on PP in the ML?

    I quickly swab after each shot, I use the technique refered to in the Accurate Reloading site.... lick a patch run it down wet side out, flip it and run it down dry side out, load, shoot. (use short strokes increasing depth each time)

    I easily get pie plate at 100yds, most often much better, with Hornady plains, or Rem FbFp 365gr.
    these come greased.

  10. #50
    Boolit Master
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    Some barrels want a little lube some don't. My stainless rifles don't like or need lube. The blued barrels like lube on the over powder wad. One rifle that I built likes a dab of lube between the bullet and over powder wad. The lube I am using is Hornady Great plains lube. If that lube stays on the paper too long it will compromise the strength of the paper. If I am target shooting I can add lube and not worry. I don't like to add lube on the paper if I am hunting because I don't know how long that bullet will be loaded. I try to work up the most accurate load without that I can. So far I have built and shot 10 rifles with this load. All I can say is each is and individual. Ron

  11. #51
    I was wondering, why you shoot the 500 S&W 440 gr paper patched and not naked ? is the bullet not designed for it. poor accuracy.. Thank you.

  12. #52
    Boolit Master
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    onionskin paper

    Idahoron,
    The papermillstore link you refer to in this topic refers to 9 lb 100% cotton paper instead of 25 % cotton like you said you were using. So, what are you using exactely: 25% or 100% onionskin paper ?

  13. #53
    Boolit Master
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    Jeepman, The 500 S&W bullet is too small for my barrels. That bullet would fall back out if I tipped it muzzle down.

    I have been using "airmail" paper. I got it from a second hand store. It is 25% cotton. The Papermill paper works just as well as the airmail paper. Cotton paper is very hard to find.
    Ron

  14. #54
    Boolit Master corey012778's Avatar
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    all I am going to say is thanks idahoron

    he is helping on another site with paper patching, I will post my results later. still having some issue but not wrapping the bullet now.

  15. #55
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    ..............I've successfully shot MANY GG boolits paper patched in my 45 cal fast twist muzzle loaders (Whitworth, and a Rigby long range match rifle) but not at long range.



    In the LEFT photo, the 2 boolits 2nd and third from the left are patched GG slugs. Probably one of the best for a 45 cal cartridge rifle would be the Lyman 475gr Whitworth design. Patched is (left photo) 2nd from left and unpatched far right. Unpatched it's a bit small for a .458" groove, but is easily sized down to .452" for patching. With pure lead it drops from the cavities at .454" from my blocks.

    In the RIGHT photo are sixty 577-450 Martini's loaded using the Lee 457-405-F as cast and then patched with 20lb typing paper to give the correct .472" OD for my MkIV Martini Henry. In our clubs' short range silhuette match, over 38.0grs of IMR3031 they'll handily fetch the 200 meter ram. Off the bench using the Lyman 457121-PH cast of pure lead, sized to .452" in a push through die, weighed and paper patched to .459" and fired from a 45-70 Sharps (or any other 45 cal rifle) with it's barrel sights and smokless powder I can get 4" five shot groups at 200 meters. I'm in my late 50's and have worn glasses since the 5th grade



    However, for successful long range work you DO want a smooth slug for paper patching. LEFT photo, 560grs swaged cup based .443" for patching to .450". RIGHT photo, the same swaged slug only HP'd and weighing 530grs. These are fired in the Whitworth and Rigby.

    .................Buckshot
    Father Grand Caster watches over you my brother. Go now and pour yourself a hot one. May the Sacred Silver Stream be with you always

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  16. #56
    Boolit Master
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    Do you have a group of Long Range Muzzle Loader to shoot with ... meet and shoot a match of just shoot? West of the Mississippi I do not think there is a match to be had.
    I shoot a P. Gibbs. .... by myself mostly. I have to go to Oak Ridge TN to get a match with like minded riflemen.
    I shoot both GG and PP bullets. The GG is cast to the correct size of .448 and is shot as cast. the PP bullets are cast at .443-444 and are patch to .448+ 89 gr FF Swiss.
    Chill Wills

  17. #57
    Boolit Master Underclocked's Avatar
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    I think the great thing about Ron's method is he is showing proof of a way to get an inexpensive mold dropping bullets that, with only slight effort, shoot quite accurately from barrels in which the bullet would otherwise be undersized. Given the scarcity of such molds for .50 caliber muzzleloading rifles (at least readily available molds), that alone is a great contribution.

    Honestly, I don't understand why Lee doesn't add a somewhat oversized rifle bullet for .50 caliber muzzleloaders to their product lineup (and I mean a straight-walled rifle bullet at about .505 diameter, not a mini or maxi). I believe it would be a nice seller.

    I'm lucky enough to have an inexpensive Lee mold of my own design that was bought in a group buy elsewhere and I size it down a bit for use in my rifles. (my avatar pic) I also have several friends that have more expensive custom molds and are willing to share their produced bullets. And there is always Dan the man at Bullshop. By they way, I take issue with the notion that pure lead won't behave well as I've shot too many sub-moa groups to buy that one.
    "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED." Understand?

  18. #58
    Boolit Master
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    This is great stuff and peaked my interest for use in my Savage 10ML2. I don't understand, though, how the paper does not get torn off loading into a ML and if it's sized to easily go down the barrel how would the paper provide an adequate seal? What would you want the PP'd boolit to be sized to? And, do you use BP, exclusively, to bump up the boolit? Thanks, in advance, for the help all.

  19. #59
    Boolit Master
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    I have not used the wood only paper but others have. The 25% cotton paper is tough. I use an over powder wad to help seal the gas. The sizing depends on your rifle. One of my rifles likes the boolits to slide down with the weight of the range rod. My 50 likes them a little tighter. In my 50 I am sizing with paper on to .501. In my 45 I am pouring the bullets to .446 and wrapping. then I size to .446. Ron

  20. #60
    Boolit Master
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    well Ron I promised that id post pic's of the baco boolit I used to test my inline. looks like I get to try it in a TC renegade as well. this is a very nice load and id think it will rival the 50-70 which nobody argues is a HUNTING ROUND!

    load is 70 grains GOEX cartridge powder... wax paper over powder ... .120 inch lube cookie ... .060 inch vegi wad ... patched .492 inch boolit with 9 lbs onion skin paper ... fired with a cci shotgun 209 primer ... in a TC encore 209x50 magnum rifle.

    I wanna thankyou again for inspiring me in this line of thought in patching a muzzleloader. I woulda never thought of it on my own.



    boolit is a 450 grain hollow base swaged bullet from BACO at .492 inch before patching.

    boolits in background that have tails are for my 43 Spanish...Remington's "other" 44-77.
    WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE...MORE WILL BE SAID THEN DONE

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check