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Thread: part # 1 paper patching the ML

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
    idahoron's Avatar
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    Do you have a picture of those bullets? ROn

  2. #22
    Boolit Master Nobade's Avatar
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    Hi Ron,
    No pictures as of yet. I'll see if I can figure out how to get some up here as time allows. I guess it's time to learn how to do that. For now, you can go to the NEI web site at http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog.html and it's on page 13 - .496 500 PP, number 359C (I think, pictures are blurry there)

    As for NEI's molds, I am not too impressed with their current offerings but this one does cast very useful bullets. Lots of tool marks and chatter in the cavities, but I got it cheap and the bullets it makes are very accurate so I can be not so picky. At their current full price I might not be so happy.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master
    idahoron's Avatar
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    Interesting Do you know the hardness of your bullets? I am going to go through a series of tests with hardness and accuracy being the two main things. I am interested in seeing the accuracy between pure 5 BHN and lets say 8 BHN. I know that some of the long range shooters use 40-1 or 30-1 lead in their rifles. I am just kind of curious. I have a cabin tree hardness tester. I add about 500 gr of chilled lead shot to 5 pounds of butter soft pure lead it get it to fill out a little better and this bumps the hardness a few points on the tester. My 500 S&W bullets are between 5 BHN and 8 BHN. I know that the very pure lead in the 500 S&W bullets don’t shoot as well I think. It is going to be interesting to see how it goes. If something like the 40-1 or 30-1 shoots better I might order some premixed from Rotometal. Ron

  4. #24
    Boolit Master Nobade's Avatar
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    I don't have a hardness tester, so I am not sure. This particular pot is mystery metal, mostly stick-on wheelweights with a big chunk of something a fellow gave me that is really soft. In the past I have used bullets cast from the stick-ons by themselves, and they work fine too. It is much harder than pure lead, but not nearly as hard as wheelweights according to my thumbnail hardness test. I agree about pure lead, it seems to slump on the nose and not shoot all that great. From what I read from the long range ML guys, 30-1 or even 20-1 is the choice in the Gibbs and other target rifles.

  5. #25
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    I finally got a fast twist barrel from Green Mountain(1:28 LRH), actually I bought it from here on the forum, and I should be receiving the new .500 mould from Midway today or maybe tomorrow.

    All this talk of Paper Patching for the Muzzle Loader is certainly catching.LOL

    As soon as I've got every thing "up and running" I will probably have a lot of questions. I don't foresee a lot of problems right now as I already paper patch a few bullets right now for the 45-70, 35 Whelen and the 30-30, but I've never paper patched for any of my muzzleloaders.....likely because I'm a round ball shooter for the most part.

    Thanks a bunch for sharing your experiences with us, Ron

    Russ
    When it comes to Muzzle Loaders, Black Powder Matters.

  6. #26
    Boolit Master RMulhern's Avatar
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    Instead of using a grease groove bullet.....you'd do much better to order you a mould for a smooth-sided PP bullet! Those GG create a lot of drag and the patching of the bullet would work better with a smooth side!!
    "The South died with Stonewall Jackson!"

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMulhern View Post
    Instead of using a grease groove bullet.....you'd do much better to order you a mould for a smooth-sided PP bullet! Those GG create a lot of drag and the patching of the bullet would work better with a smooth side!!
    I'm not so sure of that, yet.
    I have both styles in the 45-70 and I've tried several hundred smooth-sided in the .35
    If this holds true I'm not astute enough to see that much difference, after several years of shooting them both.

    Although, like many others, I have also read that smooth-sided PP is better, my discussions with other PP shooters on the range doesn't bear this out to be a fact...perhaps in theory, but not on paper.

    This is just my own observation of the smooth-side vs GG, and like many other things shooting related, ones mileage may vary greatly.

    Russ
    When it comes to Muzzle Loaders, Black Powder Matters.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master RMulhern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RBak View Post
    I'm not so sure of that, yet.
    I have both styles in the 45-70 and I've tried several hundred smooth-sided in the .35
    If this holds true I'm not astute enough to see that much difference, after several years of shooting them both.

    Although, like many others, I have also read that smooth-sided PP is better, my discussions with other PP shooters on the range doesn't bear this out to be a fact...perhaps in theory, but not on paper.

    This is just my own observation of the smooth-side vs GG, and like many other things shooting related, ones mileage may vary greatly.

    Russ
    RBak

    "my discussions with other PP shooters on the range doesn't bear this out to be a fact...perhaps in theory, but not on paper."

    Well...I don't have a clue as to who you've been speaking with but I can say beyond the shadow of any doubt that NO NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS involving Creedmoor Shooting which is done at Raton, N. Mexico have been won using PP with grooves! Plain grease groove bullets have won quite often but for shooting PP bullets with grooves and 'placing' or winning I'm fairly certain has NOT BEEN DONE!
    "The South died with Stonewall Jackson!"

  9. #29
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    A smooth sided bullet might be just the ticket for long range target shooting. For hunting under 200 yards I will put my money on the Paper Patched Lee C-501-440-RF I KNOW that they shoot sub 2" groups at 100 yards and I KNOW what they do to game. They are just an awsome combo. Ron

  10. #30
    Boolit Master RMulhern's Avatar
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    If you're going to use paper patch....use a PAPER PATCH BULLET; not one with lube grooves!!
    "The South died with Stonewall Jackson!"

  11. #31
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMulhern View Post
    If you're going to use paper patch....use a PAPER PATCH BULLET; not one with lube grooves!!
    Why, I can get five shots on a playing card at 75 yds. using The lee bullet described by IdahoRon, from a standing position. Are there any style points I'm unaware of here?

  12. #32
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    I get sub 2" groups off the bench and these have killed 5 animals now 3 are record book animals. I don't see the problem with it. But i have never been period correct I just shoot what works. Ron

  13. #33
    Boolit Master RMulhern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zdogk9 View Post
    Why, I can get five shots on a playing card at 75 yds. using The lee bullet described by IdahoRon, from a standing position. Are there any style points I'm unaware of here?
    5 shots on a playing card from 75 yards from standing!!

    You need to go to Camp Perry and WIN THE NATIONALS!!!

    Oh...I have a bridge in Arizona.....!!
    "The South died with Stonewall Jackson!"

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by zdogk9 View Post
    Why, I can get five shots on a playing card at 75 yds. using The lee bullet described by IdahoRon, from a standing position. Are there any style points I'm unaware of here?
    75yds you're not likely to see a great deal of difference. Come along to a major long range championship event (US hosted the World Long Range Championships in 2009 BTW) and you will find most are shooting smooth sided paper patched bullets.

    David
    www.researchpress.co.uk - www.facebook.com/ResearchPress
    Firearms, long range target shooting and associated history

  15. #35
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    None of the bullets that are used in the 45's at 1000 yards would be legal to hunt elk here in Idaho every "game" is different. I am sure that a smooth sided bullet might be the best for long distance target shooting. For big game hunting under 300 yards I will trust the Lee C-501-440-RF. Ron

  16. #36
    Boolit Master RMulhern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by idahoron View Post
    None of the bullets that are used in the 45's at 1000 yards would be legal to hunt elk here in Idaho every "game" is different. I am sure that a smooth sided bullet might be the best for long distance target shooting. For big game hunting under 300 yards I will trust the Lee C-501-440-RF. Ron
    idahoron

    "None of the bullets that are used in the 45's at 1000 yards would be legal to hunt elk here in Idaho"

    Hmmmm.....I NEED TO SEE that in writing from an Idaho Game brochure!!
    "The South died with Stonewall Jackson!"

  17. #37
    Moderator Emeritus / Trusted loob groove dealer


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    Quote Originally Posted by RMulhern View Post
    idahoron

    "None of the bullets that are used in the 45's at 1000 yards would be legal to hunt elk here in Idaho"

    Hmmmm.....I NEED TO SEE that in writing from an Idaho Game brochure!!
    I think the word "suitable" needs to be changed from legal.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  18. #38
    Boolit Master RMulhern's Avatar
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    I guess we'll have to over-look all the elk, deer, and recent buffalo that have been eaten by hunters shooting BPCR and dumb enough to be using Postell & Creedmoor bullets...which just happen to be very accurate for the long range game aka 1000 yd shooting!!
    "The South died with Stonewall Jackson!"

  19. #39
    Boolit Master Nobade's Avatar
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    I don't know about Idaho, but 45 caliber muzzleloaders aren't legal here in NM for elk hunting. Has to be 50 cal. or bigger. I know a 45 would kill one DRT, but the game laws are what they are.

    As for smooth vs grooved, for hunting who cares? They both shoot better than most people can see and the Lee mould is under $20. Personally I have both, the Lee and the NEI I mentioned above. They both work, the smooth sided NEI is a little more accurate but both would kill game just fine. For long range target work smooth sided is the only way to go, but that is a whole 'nuther game than what Idahoron started out this thread with.

  20. #40
    Boolit Master
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    Idaho is the same way.
    RMulhern, You have to use a 50 cal muzzleloader or larger for elk. Look for your self on page 67
    Like Nobade has said this is getting WAY off topic. If you want a thread about smooth vs groves you can start another thread.
    Ron

    http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/cms/hun...ll_booklet.pdf

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check