Milk Jug 300 Yard 6.5 Swede

[PAT303]

Up to now I have always dropped my boolits into water from the mold as it is a common practice but reading Larry's line on soft boolits forming evenly into the bore makes a lot of sense,I can't wait for it to cool down and put theory into practise.This is the best thread we've had for a while. Pat

[StarMetal]

Up to now I have always dropped my boolits into water from the mold as it is a common practice but reading Larry's line on soft boolits forming evenly into the bore makes a lot of sense,I can't wait for it to cool down and put theory into practise.This is the best thread we've had for a while. Pat

You can make them shoot both ways. I shoot some that are air cooled and I shoot others that are water dropped. Recently I was shooting BaBore's remake of the Lyman 266469 and they were water dropped. I wasn't shooting the powders I would have liked for it, but with that said my first tests of it were 3/4 inch groups at velocity.

About the centering that is one thing using the 06 brass that is just neck sized and has the neck turned to minimum expansion clearance in the neck portion of the chamber does...centers the bullet. Someone explain to me how a soft bullet forms evenly into the bore if it's off center. Also is that to say if a soft bullet and a hard bullet are centered that the harder bullet won't form evenly into the bore? I'm a little confused with this one. One thing further...this technique also helps the bullet start and go more straight into the bore. It nulls, to a degree, some of the influences that want to make the bullet cant upon initial acceleration.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Eutectic

"Joe is driving a rather soft boolit at 2300 fps. Add to that, the additional compressive longitudinal load from pushing into a very steep twist... Does Joe's 6.5 boolit take this in stride, or does it collapse some under load?

Therefore... my interest in Joe's 300 yard velocity reading is a measuring tool. Did Joe's bullet change in its coefficient of form during launch? If it collapsed much then a TRUE ballistic coefficient can be derived from Joe's 300 yard reading vs. his muzzle velocity. Joe's velocity at 300 yards will show a "slugged up" boolit if it has changed much. That's my interest."

There is no doubt the bullet is compressing. As Joe mentions there is some tentency to lengthen but with the rapid accelleration and being forced into the fast twist the acts of lengthening is counteracted by the compression. The bullet does compress and it is back into the groove area where it can compress as the lube is forced out. The result is a shorter, squatter bullet shape with a lower BC. That softer cast bullets end up being more accurate at high velocity is, I believe, because they compress evenly whereas a hard bullet may compress more on one side or the alloy may chip off on the driving bands.

Thus the softer bullet at HV stays more balanced and is less affected by RPM. I attempted to explain all of this during the RPM threshold testing I conducted. I actually do measure the BC of the bullets (based on measured muzzle velocity and 100 yard velocity) with the M43 PBL. My tests so far with soft cast bullets vs hard cast bullets out of the same mould in the 6.5 Swede show the BC of the soft cast bullets decreases at a higher rate as velocity is increased vs the hard cast bullets. That is factual proof of the set back and compression of the softer bullets as evidenced by the smaller BC.

However, my factual findings were boo hooed to no extent and ignored during the tests. I imagine the same will happen here. Eutectic, bottem line is you are correct.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

Why is it when we drastically size down a lubed bullet, as for example a when I sized those RCBS 124 grain TC nose 9mm's to 30 caliber, they grew quite an amount. Why is that in a luber sizer, or even the Lee pust through, and groove stays pretty much the same and the lube isn't pushed out? I will say that the groove does narrow somewhat, but is not proportional to the growth of the length. Doing what I just said is much more of a drastic sizing down of a bullet then when it's in the bore. I'll have to measure some bullets lengths before and after normal sizing. That is, for example take my 266469, lube it with my fingers and measure the length, then size it and measure it again. I want to be fair lubing it the first time because moving the metal can compress into the lube groove before the lube gets into them in luber sizer.

Joe

[StarMetal]

The title of this thread caught my interest and I have been following along picking up bits of information here and there but there is still lots to learn.

I hope the thread keeps developing and the guys that know will share enough to help the guys who are eager to learn. Like I said, I am all ears and waiting for more details.

I have learned a tremendous amount on this site in the last few years and I read lots of posts by people like Larry Gibson, Starmetal, 45 2.1, Felix (to name a few knowledgeable people on this thread) and a host of others, always learning something.

This thread may be about the 6.5 Swede but the principles that allow Joe to get the results he does can be applied to other cartridges as well.

I am interested.

Longbow

True and not true. Using the thicker necked formed 06 brass can be used (depending on cartridge caliber) but the filler can't.

Joe

[geargnasher]

True and not true. Using the thicker necked formed 06 brass can be used (depending on cartridge caliber) but the filler can't.

Joe

Ok, I was assuming it would be. Would you mind helping me understand why it can't?

If I'm trying to do essentially the same thing with a .270 Winchester with properly fit and tempered cases why can't I apply the same concepts that worked for the Swede with properly dimensioned brass? IIRC you have used this unconventional loading technique on more than one caliber with good success, and though I know it didn't help much in one instance, it could be tried none the less.

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

Starmetal

Bullets do lengthen when sized down, that is not an issue. The cast bullet when accelerating is under terrific G forces, the faster the acceleration the greater the force. That G force is much greater than the simple force caused during sizing in which the lead flows in the direction of least resistance. The G force may well be much greater than the force of the bullet being sized down in the bore.

let us consider a WQ'd cast bullet with and air cooled cast bullet. When the cast bullet comes out of the mould it is still very hot. However it isn't the same temperature in or on all areas of the bullet. When WQ'd the various degrees of temperature cause various degrees of hardness in different locations on/in the bullet. An AC'd cast bullet cools down over a period of time and the hardness is pretty much the same all over in and out.

Now when we accelerate the AC'd cast bullet the tremendous G force will cause the bullet to evenly set back into the lube grooves as the lube is squeezed out onto the surface of the bore. This squeezing out and depletion of the lube leaves a small amount of space for the collapse of the bullet. The actual amount of collapse is going to be dependant on many things all inter-related. Lets look at a WQ'd bullet on the other hand. Say one side of the bullet is a little harder than the other side. The harder side may be hard enough to with stand the G force. The other side may not be so it collapses. It only takes a small amount of collapse to cause the balance of the bullet to become skewed; the center of form, center of spin and center of gravity do not coincide. Now comes the part you don't want to believe but it is what is happening whether you believe it or not. The high RPM (we're talking now about 200,000+ RPM) then has an adverse affect on that bullet while in flight. The farther the bullet flies the greater the adverse effect (groups get larger in a non-linear manner) on accuracy. The effect may be small or it may be large depending on the amount of imbalance and the RPM.

Now if you look at a cast bullet with a bore riding nose the nose itself has lots of room to collapse rearward and to the sides into the grooves or on one side of the nose into the grooves. This results in a very unbalance bullet and is why it is much more difficult to shoot such cast bullets with bore riding noses at higher velocity. This is why Lovern style bullets such as the one of BaBore's that you are using work much better at HV; there isn't a long nose. Yes I know of your claimes with bore riding nose designs. But remember you also claim a very tight fit with those noses. That helps to negate uneven set back.

Larry Gibson

[swheeler]

I'm still interested in the BC of that little flat nosed 130 gr bullet. I can't for the life of me figure out how that bullet started at 2300 fps can hit dead on at 300 yards when using the first dot under the crosshair when scope is zeroed at 100 yds? That dot should give about 1.5 moa elevation, or +4.5 inches at 300 yards, I don't own a gun that shoots that flat! Not my 6.5 @3200, 30 cal @3300+, or 22@3500, with a 100 yd zero I have to use the second dot down from cross hair to hit 300 yd gong. I must say I'm baffled??

[Bullshop Junior]

I'm still interested in the BC of that little flat nosed 130 gr bullet. I can't for the life of me figure out how that bullet started at 2300 fps can hit dead on at 300 yards when using the first dot under the crosshair when scope is zeroed at 100 yds? That dot should give about 1.5 moa elevation, or +4.5 inches at 300 yards, I don't own a gun that shoots that flat! Not my 6.5 @3200, 30 cal @3300+, or 22@3500, with a 100 yd zero I have to use the second dot down from cross hair to hit 300 yd gong. I must say I'm baffled??

My 7mm/08 drops 4.9" at 300 yards with 100gr bullets at 3400 FPS, acording to the Sierra book.

That is the closest any thing I have will come.

[longbow]

True and not true. Using the thicker necked formed 06 brass can be used (depending on cartridge caliber) but the filler can't.

Joe

I have the same question as Gear... why wouldn't the same principles apply? Please help me understand.

Longbow

[StarMetal]

Starmetal

Bullets do lengthen when sized down, that is not an issue. The cast bullet when accelerating is under terrific G forces, the faster the acceleration the greater the force. That G force is much greater than the simple force caused during sizing in which the lead flows in the direction of least resistance. The G force may well be much greater than the force of the bullet being sized down in the bore.

let us consider a WQ'd cast bullet with and air cooled cast bullet. When the cast bullet comes out of the mould it is still very hot. However it isn't the same temperature in or on all areas of the bullet. When WQ'd the various degrees of temperature cause various degrees of hardness in different locations on/in the bullet. An AC'd cast bullet cools down over a period of time and the hardness is pretty much the same all over in and out.

Now when we accelerate the AC'd cast bullet the tremendous G force will cause the bullet to evenly set back into the lube grooves as the lube is squeezed out onto the surface of the bore. This squeezing out and depletion of the lube leaves a small amount of space for the collapse of the bullet. The actual amount of collapse is going to be dependant on many things all inter-related. Lets look at a WQ'd bullet on the other hand. Say one side of the bullet is a little harder than the other side. The harder side may be hard enough to with stand the G force. The other side may not be so it collapses. It only takes a small amount of collapse to cause the balance of the bullet to become skewed; the center of form, center of spin and center of gravity do not coincide. Now comes the part you don't want to believe but it is what is happening whether you believe it or not. The high RPM (we're talking now about 200,000+ RPM) then has an adverse affect on that bullet while in flight. The farther the bullet flies the greater the adverse effect (groups get larger in a non-linear manner) on accuracy. The effect may be small or it may be large depending on the amount of imbalance and the RPM.

Now if you look at a cast bullet with a bore riding nose the nose itself has lots of room to collapse rearward and to the sides into the grooves or on one side of the nose into the grooves. This results in a very unbalance bullet and is why it is much more difficult to shoot such cast bullets with bore riding noses at higher velocity. This is why Lovern style bullets such as the one of BaBore's that you are using work much better at HV; there isn't a long nose. Yes I know of your claimes with bore riding nose designs. But remember you also claim a very tight fit with those noses. That helps to negate uneven set back.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

I see what you're saying about WQ'ed. You are correct in that my bore riders nose fit the bore like a glove. That 140 Saeco fit's my Grendel barrel like Saeco designed it for that. Now when I shoot that Saeco out of my E.R.Shaw 260 Rem barrel, which the groove is the size...but the bore in not, it's too fat, no accuracy what so ever. Too back my 6.5x54 Mannlicher has such a long freebore that it prevents me from using that Saeco. Same barrel on that rifle as on the Grendel except that they are chambered for different cartridges and the Grendel barrel is a bull barrel.

Joe

[swheeler]

My 7mm/08 drops 4.9" at 300 yards with 100gr bullets at 3400 FPS, acording to the Sierra book.

That is the closest any thing I have will come.

Maybe with a 200 yard zero and about 8 inches with a 100 yd zero.

[Bullshop Junior]

Maybe with a 200 yard zero and about 8 inches with a 100 yd zero.

I meant 5.9. Also, I was looking in the wrong column, and that is 250 yards.
I feel so silly..............

I have not idea how that 6.5 boolit is dropping that little. I would like to know how he is doing it.

[swheeler]

"True and not true. Using the thicker necked formed 06 brass can be used (depending on cartridge caliber) but the filler can't" by starmetal

You are loading a slow powder to about 54% of case capacity and the remainder of poly shot buffer for filler to give 100%+density(compressed), yes? I would think this same principle or formula would work for other cartridges. You would just have to pick a single base powder of the correct speed for your target velocity that yielded 54%(or higher) load density. Then you would add the filler to achieve compressed load, NO?
As for forming brass with thicker necks to center the cartridge in the chamber, this is old time stuff, thinking back 20 years to forming 7.65 ARG and 8mm from surplus 06. If the chamber is of correct dimensions, throat not grossly over groove diameter, then same or similar effect should be accomplished by sizing to throat diameter and engraving on ogive or nose if possible. Please tell me why you cannot achieve the cushioning, anti ablation, sealing effect of the psb filler with calibers other than 6.5 Swede. Scot

[swheeler]

I meant 5.9. Also, I was looking in the wrong column, and that is 250 yards.
I feel so silly..............

I have not idea how that 6.5 boolit is dropping that little. I would like to know how he is doing it.

Junior; that still beats the ol 30/30 with a stick! Think of the new and improved 7RUM, a 140 faster than your 100 grain, we're getting close to "Ray Gun" Now I really like taking game with cast, never did it until about 5 years ago, but one of the biggest draw backs was always trajectory and terminal velocity, and now when Joe EXPLAINS it to us all that is no longer a concern.

[StarMetal]

I'm still interested in the BC of that little flat nosed 130 gr bullet. I can't for the life of me figure out how that bullet started at 2300 fps can hit dead on at 300 yards when using the first dot under the crosshair when scope is zeroed at 100 yds? That dot should give about 1.5 moa elevation, or +4.5 inches at 300 yards, I don't own a gun that shoots that flat! Not my 6.5 @3200, 30 cal @3300+, or 22@3500, with a 100 yd zero I have to use the second dot down from cross hair to hit 300 yd gong. I must say I'm baffled??

Scot and others,

In the first post I mentioned the scope as a 2.5x10 Burris with Mil Dot Reticle. Well I'm wondering about all this too so I went to the Burris site and they have a pretty extensive read on the Mil Dot. It was then a light went on in my head. I have a Mil Dot scope on my 6.5 Grendel, which I've shot lots more then my Swede, and as mentioned a Mil Dot on the Swede. The mix up is the Grendel wears the 2.5x14 Burris and the Swede wears the 2.5x10 Tasco Target Mil Dot. Went to the Tasco sight and their PDF of the mil dot was worthless, but I gathered that the first mil down from the main fine crosshairs on the Tasco is for a further distance then the Burris one, which Burris said is 200 yards. So that might explain why it appears the Kurtz shot so flat. Tasco did say use the fine main cross hair for 100 and 200 yards. So that first dot down has to be further then 200 yards. I'm also wondering how much a slower cast bullet as compared to very high velocity jacketed bullets affects the accuracy of mil dot too as they are calibrated for the jacketed load. Sorry for my mix up. At any rate the bullet still wacked jug of water pretty hard.

Forgot something on the Burris Mil Dot, which swheeler is figuring from: Burris says the first dot down is for 200 yards and it will print .80" at 100 yards. At the 2nd down dot for 300 yards will print 2.43". Remember now those are for high velocity flat shooting jacketed bullets.

Joe

[swheeler]

That explains some of it I believe. I am not that up on the different reticles but the B-plex is not a mil-dot, mil-dot is graduated in millradiant? and the balistic plex was st up to compensate for the modern hi-powered rifles and broke down in moa from 100 yd zero, except for the real flat shooters then cross hair is for 1 and 200 I believe? would have to look. Still want to see terminal velocity at 300 yds . Scot

[swheeler]

Joe; what do you say about the filler and similar load density of single base powder in different cartridges? Will it work, I don't see why not as far as safety goes, now accuracy we all know that has to be worked out.

[StarMetal]

Joe; what do you say about the filler and similar load density of single base powder in different cartridges? Will it work, I don't see why not as far as safety goes, now accuracy we all know that has to be worked out.

As cartridge and caliber changes so does the effect. Look at how close the 260 Rem, 6.5x54MS, and 6.5 Swede are and yet the loads and loading of them is vastly different for me. Only thing that stayed the same between them are the bullets. I also understand that it's different between same caliber and make of rifle. 45 2.1 got his excellent results in his Swede/Swedes with an entirely different powder then me. So that adds another variable..maybe the sweet spot can be found with different powders. If you and others remember little while back I posted that 10 one hole group I shot with my Finn 39 using the 314299 at what I'd call low end HV (i'll have to look up my records I believe it was around 2000 fps or slightly over) well I used the type of loading discussed here with it. That was the first load of that kind for it so maybe I'll play with that some and see if I can bump the velocity more.

Joe

[geargnasher]

Joe, I just took two nice whitetails yesterday evening with my CG Swede and (Gulp) softpoint J-words at an embarrassingly close distance. Due to having to shoot fast standing offhand (something I, like most hunters, never practice enough) I chose to shoot them both through the shoulders and punched the neatest little holes through them. Both jumped straight up in the air and ran 30-40 yards before collapsing (both heart-shot), but I think would have gone much further without broken shoulders as they required sidearm finishing shots for the sake of being humane. These little holes, even after hitting bone, is why I dislike j-words in small calibers for hunting deer. There was so little tissue damage that the hearts were edible and most of the shoulder meat wasn't even bruised.

Point is I really don't like to shoot something knowing it will take it two minutes to die. There are far more humane ways to stock the freezer, and that is the primary reason I want to shoot reasonably soft cast with the Swede and .270, it either needs to do to a deer's heart/lungs what your Swede did to that water jug or be so accurate I can take careful head/neck shots at long range, preferably both. Right now my .30-30 win and .30-'06 are the only guns I own that can come close to that goal, and I should have used one of them yesterday except I hadn't ever killed a deer with that particular Swede.

Soooooooo, you know where I am and where I want to be, how about throwing me a bone?

Gear

[StarMetal]

Joe, I just took two nice whitetails yesterday evening with my CG Swede and (Gulp) softpoint J-words at an embarrassingly close distance. Due to having to shoot fast standing offhand (something I, like most hunters, never practice enough) I chose to shoot them both through the shoulders and punched the neatest little holes through them. Both jumped straight up in the air and ran 30-40 yards before collapsing (both heart-shot), but I think would have gone much further without broken shoulders as they required sidearm finishing shots for the sake of being humane. These little holes, even after hitting bone, is why I dislike j-words in small calibers for hunting deer. There was so little tissue damage that the hearts were edible and most of the shoulder meat wasn't even bruised.

Point is I really don't like to shoot something knowing it will take it two minutes to die. There are far more humane ways to stock the freezer, and that is the primary reason I want to shoot reasonably soft cast with the Swede and .270, it either needs to do to a deer's heart/lungs what your Swede did to that water jug or be so accurate I can take careful head/neck shots at long range, preferably both. Right now my .30-30 win and .30-'06 are the only guns I own that can come close to that goal, and I should have used one of them yesterday except I hadn't ever killed a deer with that particular Swede.

Soooooooo, you know where I am and where I want to be, how about throwing me a bone?

Gear

About two years about I shot a doe that was about 100 yards and with her right side facing me at a quarter angle. I shot her in front of the shoulder with a 260 Rem with a 140 grain Rem Cor Loc. The bullet ended up right under the skin in her left ham and expanded pretty darn good. It was a total path of destruction through her. She went about 25 yards and I had to give her the coupe de gras. I'm convinced had the shot been with my 7mm08 Sako with the 139 grain Hornady she'd dropped in her tracks. I'm not all sold on heart shot. Seen too many of them go too far with totally destroyed hearts. I'm not discounting the 260 but I feel the 7mm08 hits them harder. I've seen some really downed deer with the 243 and 6mm and those are even smaller then the 6.5's. Just saying I don't believe a cast bullet is going to make a 6.5 Swede any better killer.

Joe