Milk Jug 300 Yard 6.5 Swede

[StarMetal]

By the way H1000 is too slow and that AA2217 sounds too fast.

Joe


Joe I think they are the exact same powder, just Aussie designation.

Thanks Scot, I'm not familiar with the Aussie powder numbers. So that being the case, it's too slow too.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Joe, thanks for posting all that, I just wish you had come out with it about six pages ago!

Gear

Larry Gibson was told this same exact thing by me.

Joe

[PAT303]

Try Aussie 2213. ... felix

All hodgden ''H'' powders are Australian Mulwex made. Varget is Oz AR2208,H4350 is AR2209,AR2213SC is H4831SC etc.Joe,AR2217 H1000 is a good powder in the swede when you go to 160grn jacketed bullets,thats why I am going that way,I'm going to AR2213SC also as 37grns without any filler,I used it before this thread started did work well at 100 as it gave me 1 1/2 groups day in day out. Pat

[StarMetal]

All hodgden ''H'' powders are Australian Mulwex made. Varget is Oz AR2208,H4350 is AR2209,AR2213SC is H4831SC etc.Joe,AR2217 H1000 is a good powder in the swede when you go to 160grn jacketed bullets,thats why I am going that way,I'm going to AR2213SC also as 37grns without any filler,I used it before this thread started did work well at 100 as it gave me 1 1/2 groups day in day out. Pat

Telling you it's too slow for cast or cast with the buffer in the Swede. I shot lot's of 860 surplus out of all my 6.5's. I even duplexed it and with buffer and got ok results that way. Got some very high velocities also. Although the accuracy was very good it wasn't bug holes. If it isn't bug holes or below one inch I'm not interesting in it. I did come up with a good HV deer load with the Cruise Missile. That 860 is very close to H1000 on the burn chart.

Joe

[Pat I.]

Quick question for Starmetal. You posted this up in post #433 "I have another Lyman that has the double gas check shank". What's a double gas check shank?

[45 2.1]

I also feel that 45 2.1 comments about ''there is a small group of people that know the secrets and stay away from public forums like the plague'' line is negative at best, people want to learn There used to be things called apprenticeships where you learned a skill, today everybody wants a shortcut.....which begets ammunition assemblers. The method was put up as it was to keep you out of trouble while learning to do this on your own. Notwithstanding people doing it there own way with various tools, boolits which don't fit and methods that sometimes give poor results. You want more.... go find a mentor who will teach you hands on. , thats why we are here. Maybe if ''we'' are so below the important people maybe ''they'' should start thier own forum,the rest of us can be happy with 1 1/2 groups and the experts can take thier secrets to the grave. They're not interested in participating in any public forum....at all.....and could care less. If your happy with your 1 1/2" groups thats fine....but you did say you were here to learn. Whats stopping you?

[45 2.1]

Quick question for Starmetal. You posted this up in post #433 "I have another Lyman that has the double gas check shank". What's a double gas check shank?

The boolit is from my mold which is a factory hollow point in 266455. Lyman used to offer a shorter yet boolit in the same configuration (I can't find an example on the web and don't remember its number, maybe 266454. It is in the first Cast Bullet Handbook.). The first GC shank is the at the length of the shorter boolit and another band and shank are below it which adds up to the length of the 266455. A really odd setup, but Lyman has done some weird things with cherries before. Maybe Joe will post a picture of it.

[Pat I.]

Quick question for Larry. Larry if I remember right I might have some Norma 6.5 Swede brass around here somewhere, not positive but a good possibility. If I were to send you 5 or ten cases would you run them in your test loaded conventionally to be used as a standard? Nothing fancy and I expect 31 or 32 grs of 4350, or whatever you use in the cases using buffer, would be good to go. My 6.5 PPC shoots pretty good with 4350 and it's what I use.

It'll be a hunt to find them if they're even here so want an OK before the search begins.

[scrapcan]

Larry, Joe, 45 2.1,

The loaner gb mould will hit the bricks ( I packaged it well, but still hope that is not a literal saying) today en route to Larry. Might as well see what the swede bullet will do for him. There is also a stick of LBT blue soft in box in case Larry does not have any on hand.

Anything else I can do to help this thread along?

[StarMetal]

Here are all the bullets we've been speaking of. From left to right...The Cruise Missile, Lyman 266469 (mold I sold due to dropping too skinny), BaBore 266469, Saeco 140 grain, Lyman I believe Larry used in his test, The double gascheck shank bullet 45 2.1 spoke of, and of course the Group buy Kurtz (the more flatter nosed one):


Joe

[Larry Gibson]

No Joe, I wasn't "told the same thing". Getting any straight information out of you and 45 2.1 has been like pulling teeth. I simply asked for a starting load as a place to start from. Most load information starts out with "starting" loads. So getting a "strating load" from someone who claims to have a successful load is really pretty understandable.

I also simply wanted to test your loads to give a velocity/pressure reference to shoot for in developing my own loads.

Now as to me following direstions; the first test was with variation. I blatently told where the variation was and why I varied. I did not expect to get accuracy but would have accepted it if it would have happened. It didn't and I said that was okay. What I was interested in was the velocity/pressure curves with 4895 and AA4350 which I now have. That gives me a much better palce to zero in on a supposed sweet spot. Ias to cases i did use formed '06 cases with .001 clearence. I stated in my article in CastPics that is what to use. That article was published there before this thread with it's information was started.

Use .268 bullets? Well how about if a .268 bullet doesn't fit the rifles throat regardless of what Joe and 45 2.1 want to say? I really don't care if a .268 sized bullet fits Joe's rifle, a .268 bullet fitting Joe's rifle has nothing to do with what size bullets fit my rifles. 266455 sized .268 sized do not fit either of my rifles. My rifles require the Lovern 266455s to be .266 to go into the throat to the leade.

So, I have;
*the right cases
*I NS them to .001 - .002 tension with Redding Bushing dies or I can swtch to my Lee Collet die and do the same
*will lightly crimp in a lube groove as Joe told me he does. He also stated he didn't use a crimp on some good loads. Now he says he crimps so I will crimp.
*the right size bullets (for my rifles throats) so let's quit the whining and excuses for that. The bullet must fit and must chamber to work...end of story
*the initial lube that was used
*have the riight primers (I can switch to Wolf's)
*have the right powders (3100 and H4831SC, if the H4831SC gives them an excuse I can switch to original 4831 as I still have several pounds of that)
*have the right buffer for filler ("original" as mentioned by both 45 2.1 and Joe)
*the first developmental loads will be with the directions 45 2.1 stated and i will go up in increments of 2 gr until the target velocity of 2200+ fps is reached. Once 22-2300 fps is attained I will then test loads of .2 gr incrments up and down looking for the "sweet spot". However, if the "sweet spot" only reaches 1900+ fps (like Joe's load of 31 gr AA4350) then that's not really a "high velocity" load as Joe and 45 2.1 described it. Such a load is readily obtainable without the use of this "dangerous" technique and filler use.
*understand the contradictory amounts of filler to use so I will test different amounts when a developed load hits the target velocity area of 2200+ fps
*have 2 rifles to conduct the test with; the Mex M98 action with milsurp replacement M38 barrel and a M38
*have the ability to test velocity, pressure and pressure traces on both rifles.

Does that cover it for directions?

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Quick question for Larry. Larry if I remember right I might have some Norma 6.5 Swede brass around here somewhere, not positive but a good possibility. If I were to send you 5 or ten cases would you run them in your test loaded conventionally to be used as a standard? Nothing fancy and I expect 31 or 32 grs of 4350, or whatever you use in the cases using buffer, would be good to go. My 6.5 PPC shoots pretty good with 4350 and it's what I use.

It'll be a hunt to find them if they're even here so want an OK before the search begins.

By all means send them. I will reconduct the test with AA4350 using the "original filler". I will then test the load that is in the 2200+ fps range with the Norma cases. That sound good?

Address sent via PM.

Larry Gibson

Added; I also have PMC, Winchester, PRVI and Hanson cases I planned on doing the same test with.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, Joe, 45 2.1,

The loaner gb mould will hit the bricks ( I packaged it well, but still hope that is not a literal saying) today en route to Larry. Might as well see what the swede bullet will do for him. There is also a stick of LBT blue soft in box in case Larry does not have any on hand.

Anything else I can do to help this thread along?

manleyjt

I appreciate that. If that bullet has a nose and you have a .268 sizer(?) I'll see if it fits my rifles throats sized that way. Thanks for the help.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

By all means send them. I will reconduct the test with AA4350 using the "original filler". I will then test the load that is in the 2200+ fps range with the Norma cases. That sound good?

Address sent via PM.

Larry Gibson

Added; I also have PMC, Winchester, PRVI and Hanson cases I planned on doing the same test with.

Larry,

Do you Norma test right after the first one with the military brass using the exact same load and see the difference the military case does. It was night and day with mine. I have all this new commercial Swede brass and nothing to use it for.

I had an extra RCBS sizer and I opened it up to .268. You have a spare?

Now that I have the BaBore 266469 I can send you some of those, lubed, checked, and size if you wish, to test. Will be my check and my lube.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Ok guys, here's the bullets again. I had a wrong bullet in the first post so pulled it. From left to right: Cruise Missile, BRP 266469, Lyman 266469, Saecon 140 grain, Lyman 266L455 conventional, Lyman factory 266455 Hollow Point with two gas check shanks, and the Kurtz Group buy:

Joe

[Pat I.]

Larry I'll start looking for them and let you know when and if I find them. Norma's good brass and I think the neck thickness is around .014 and pretty consistent.

I'm just trying to narrow down how someone is getting 2300+ fps and 1/2 moa groups with 31 grs of 4350 and would like you to just load a normal load sans filler in good brass to see the velocity and accuracy difference a filler and formed 06 brass makes. It can't be the powder because SM said he's done it with 4895, 4350, and 4831/3100 which just about covers the conventional rifle powder burning range. It can't be the primer because SM uses Wolf and 45 2.1 has said he's been doing it since the late 80s and Wolf wasn't around. Can't be the lube since SM said he's had success with LBT and a couple of homemade lubes even if it was in different cartridges. Can't be the fit because 45 2.1 uses .001 neck clearance and SM said his loaded neck diameter was .297/.298 which would be about anywhere from .005 to .008 under chamber neck diameter if yours and my measurements were correct. Can't be the bullet because if I remember right more than one bullet was successfully used. Atmospheric pressure, temperature and altitude are basically none issues and aren't going to make a 5 inch group into a 1/2 inch group. So basically all that's left is the filler and I'd like to see if it really did make a difference in pressure and accuracy. I'm not slamming or doubting anyone here so don't fly off the handle. If any of my Swedes were scoped I'd join in the fun but my eyesight and irons wouldn't prove anything one way or the other except that I can't see. I have the equipment and knowledge to make it happen just not the eyes.

[StarMetal]

Larry I'll start looking for them and let you know when and if I find them. Norma's good brass and I think the neck thickness is around .014 and pretty consistent.

I'm just trying to narrow down how someone is getting 2300+ fps and 1/2 moa groups with 31 grs of 4350 and would like you to just load a normal load sans filler in good brass to see the velocity and accuracy difference a filler and formed 06 brass makes. It can't be the powder because SM said he's done it with 4895, 4350, and 4831/3100 which just about covers the conventional rifle powder burning range. It can't be the primer because SM uses Wolf and 45 2.1 has said he's been doing it since the late 80s and Wolf wasn't around. Can't be the lube since SM said he's had success with LBT and a couple of homemade lubes even if it was in different cartridges. Can't be the fit because 45 2.1 uses .001 neck clearance and SM said his loaded neck diameter was .297/.298 which would be about anywhere from .005 to .008 under chamber neck diameter if yours and my measurements were correct. Can't be the bullet because if I remember right more than one bullet was successfully used. Atmospheric pressure, temperature and altitude are basically none issues and aren't going to make a 5 inch group into a 1/2 inch group. So basically all that's left is the filler and I'd like to see if it really did make a difference in pressure and accuracy. I'm not slamming or doubting anyone here so don't fly off the handle. If any of my Swedes were scoped I'd join in the fun but my eyesight and irons wouldn't prove anything one way or the other except that I can't see. I have the equipment and knowledge to make it happen just not the eyes.

I haven't done it with 3100/H4831 because I don't have any and can't get it soon.

Joe

[Pat I.]

Sorry my mistake but I'm pretty sure it was recommended as the way to go. Even if you haven't used it, maybe it was 45 2.1 who recommended it, the fact remains burn rates are covered so powder selection isn't that important.

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

Do you Norma test right after the first one with the military brass using the exact same load and see the difference the military case does. That is the plan. It was night and day with mine. I have all this new commercial Swede brass and nothing to use it for.

I had an extra RCBS sizer and I opened it up to .268. You have a spare?

I could use it or try it if you don't want to sell it so please send it either way.

Last night I cast some 266455s with a harder alloy of BHN 18 and let them AC. This morning they measure .2675 - .268. Seated in a sized '06 formed case with .001 - .002 neck tension they get shoved back into the case 1 1/2 driving bands farther than a .266 sized bullet seated to the leade when chambered in the M38. The case mouth is then centered on a driving band so crimpimg will damage the bullet. If I seat it to the next lube groove to crimp there is .3 of the bullet with 2 lube grooves into the case below the case neck. I am going to hand lube and just crimp the GC on without sizing the bullet an test them as seated using the whatever load/powder combination that gives 2200+ fps. Then we shall see if there is any difference with an over sized .268 bullet that does not fit the throat and a .266 sized bullet that does fit the throat.

Now that I have the BaBore 266469 I can send you some of those, lubed, checked, and size if you wish, to test. Will be my check and my lube.

I will gladly test them, please send them.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

StarMetal

Do you Norma test right after the first one with the military brass using the exact same load and see the difference the military case does. That is the plan. It was night and day with mine. I have all this new commercial Swede brass and nothing to use it for.

I had an extra RCBS sizer and I opened it up to .268. You have a spare?

I could use it or try it if you don't want to sell it so please send it either way.

Last night I cast some 266455s with a harder alloy of BHN 18 and let them AC. This morning they measure .2675 - .268. Seated in a sized '06 formed case with .001 - .002 neck tension they get shoved back into the case 1 1/2 driving bands farther than a .266 sized bullet seated to the leade when chambered in the M38. The case mouth is then centered on a driving band so crimpimg will damage the bullet. If I seat it to the next lube groove to crimp there is .3 of the bullet with 2 lube grooves into the case below the case neck. I am going to hand lube and just crimp the GC on without sizing the bullet an test them as seated using the whatever load/powder combination that gives 2200+ fps. Then we shall see if there is any difference with an over sized .268 bullet that does not fit the throat and a .266 sized bullet that does fit the throat.

Now that I have the BaBore 266469 I can send you some of those, lubed, checked, and size if you wish, to test. Will be my check and my lube.

I will gladly test them, please send them.

Larry Gibson

I figure on a Loverin type bullet there are so many bearing bands, what the heck if I crimp on one...which I do. Again another anomaly of mine.

I have was using the RCBS sizer, which was originally .265 for Grendel. I've since bought a new Lyman because it has more lube holes and better for lubing the longer Loverin type bullets. The RCBS got coverted to .268 specifically for the Swede and MS. I don't want to sell it.

Now my bullets don't get pushed back into the case and the bases also don't pass the neck/shoulder junction, not that you said your did, just giving you that to let you know how mine fit my Swede.

Joe