Milk Jug 300 Yard 6.5 Swede

[Larry Gibson]

Starmetal

Are you sending ammo or the case? Do you need my address?

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

45 2.1

A bit of an explanation and then a couple questions;

The purpose of my test is two fold. First is the accuracy at HV I understand the "sweet spot". But without critical load information one has to "work up a load". With both the 4895 and AA4350 powder tests there was a progression of the loads, working up in the classical sense, based on the generalized information starmetal gave. Thus I started at or near his loads and worked up. The "worked up" brings us to the second reason for the tests.

Both you and starmetal have been adament that reloaders using this technique could get into a dangerous pressure situation if too much powder was used for the reduced case capcity cused by the filler. No problem understanding that. Starmetal even told of his hard bolt lift (normally a sign of high pressure). Thus my intent on the increasing powder charges with corresponding decrease in filler was to find where pressures got high. Thus there was nothing "random" about my testing as in was a methodical progression for a determined purpose.

With the AA4350 I did experience "hard bolt lift" with one load. However other than the hard bolt lift there were no other indications of pressure. There was no measured indication of high pressure either. The measured pressure had smooth and consistent pressure traces with no spikes. The next load which was 2 gr more powder gave no hard bolt lift or any other sign of high pressure. It also measured a smooth pressure trace and it had the expected linear increase in pressure. The intitial conclusion here is that something other than high pressure is causing the hard bolt lift. Further testing will provide more data for a better or perhaps different conclusion. However, in order to find that data test loads must go up into that realm. Thus i will continue to "work up" the loads with each powder. This will give us a sound and correct understanding of what the pressure is actually doing.

Questions;

I understand that 31 gr AA4350 is the "sweet spot" in starmetals rifle. However it only produced 1965 fps. Starmetals load produced the reported 2200+ fps. Having shot many loads through both the Mex and the M38 with very little difference in velocity between them I do not expect the same load to pick up 250-300 fps simply because of the change to the M38. Do you think the use of "original" filler instead of the #47 will increase the velocity 250-300 fps? If the change in rifles and filler does not get me up to 2200+ fps do you suggest working up with more than 31 gr AA4350 untill the velocity is at the level of starmetals?

When I test 3100 in the M38 with the "original filler" what powder charge do you suggest I work around?

As always, thanks for your help.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

Question: did the load of AA4350 that produced hard bolt lift produce it with every one of them shot? Mine did.

I gave the differences in why I thought there might be differences in velocities. We both know individual rifles can be different, but how different. I want to lean towards the difference being in our chronographs. Supposely Oehler is the tops. Mine is from Competition Electronics. I've checked it with factory loads, 22's, etc. and it seems to read normal, nothing way out of line. Also if I take a load from a manual and shoot it, it reads it very close to the book. Even my pellet rifle clocked about what it's suppose to do.

45 2.1 originally told me 4350 was little too fast and his opinion now is you can try it but it will have a very narrow window. Larry if you have 3100 or 4831 I suggest resume your testing with that. You don't have to duplicate my load, only try to get that sweet spot accuracy.

Joe

[45 2.1]

The purpose of my test is two fold. First is the accuracy at HV I understand the "sweet spot". But without critical load information one has to "work up a load". With both the 4895 and AA4350 powder tests there was a progression of the loads, working up in the classical sense There is nothing classical going on here. You had the sweet spot load for Joe's load. Your workup or down should have been in 0.2 gr. increments instead of 2 gr. ones. Had you been useing the right stuff the right way, you would have stopped your series quite soon., based on the generalized information starmetal gave. Thus I started at or near his loads and worked up. The "worked up" brings us to the second reason for the tests.

With the AA4350 I did experience "hard bolt lift" with one load. However other than the hard bolt lift there were no other indications of pressure. There was no measured indication of high pressure either. The measured pressure had smooth and consistent pressure traces with no spikes. The next load which was 2 gr more powder gave no hard bolt lift or any other sign of high pressure. It also measured a smooth pressure trace and it had the expected linear increase in pressure. The intitial conclusion here is that something other than high pressure is causing the hard bolt lift. Further testing will provide more data for a better or perhaps different conclusion. However, in order to find that data test loads must go up into that realm. Thus i will continue to "work up" the loads with each powder. This will give us a sound and correct understanding of what the pressure is actually doing. I caution you to NOT do that with the correct filler. You've been told.

Questions;

I understand that 31 gr AA4350 is the "sweet spot" in starmetals rifle. However it only produced 1965 fps. Starmetals load produced the reported 2200+ fps. Having shot many loads through both the Mex and the M38 with very little difference in velocity between them I do not expect the same load to pick up 250-300 fps simply because of the change to the M38. Do you think the use of "original" filler instead of the #47 will increase the velocity 250-300 fps? The two fillers are not comparable, one bridges and the other does not. If the change in rifles and filler does not get me up to 2200+ fps do you suggest working up with more than 31 gr AA4350 untill the velocity is at the level of starmetals? Try the 31 gr. level first with the right stuff and see what you get. Your smaller lighter boolit will cause some problems here also.

When I test 3100 in the M38 with the "original filler" what powder charge do you suggest I work around? The instructions were for slow burning powders, not 4350 and faster (which occupy less room in the case). Load according to the instructions.

As always, thanks for your help.

[Larry Gibson]

Starmetal

Here are the pressure curves from the AA4350 test as you requested.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Starmetal

Here are the pressure curves from the AA4350 test as you requested.

Larry Gibson

Thanks Larry. It sure is hard to see a difference between the load that gave you hard bolt lift and the next higher load after that, that didn't. At the moment I'm at a loss as to why that happen.

One thing that would have to be done is to repeat those two and see if you get the same thing. I know that's crazy because 45 2.1 and I told you to concentrate on 3100 and 4831 powder. I sure I wish I had wrote down test loads when I got hard bolt lift on the 6.5MS. I had no problems with bolt lift on the Swede with any loads so far.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

4831??????

Where did that come from other than I said it would be one of my test powders. Is not the load you used in the 6.5 Swede to shoot those 5 groups 31 gr of AA4350?

So, okay, I'll ask you the same question I asked 45 2.1; what then is the target load using the "original" filler with both 3100 and 4831?

Larry Gibson

PS; Are you sending the test ammo or the case?

[StarMetal]

4831??????

Where did that come from other than I said it would be one of my test powders. Is not the load you used in the 6.5 Swede to shoot those 5 groups 31 gr of AA4350?

So, okay, I'll ask you the same question I asked 45 2.1; what then is the target load using the "original" filler with both 3100 and 4831?

Larry Gibson

PS; Are you sending the test ammo or the case?

Larry,

I never got a test load target from 45 2.1. I got less then you did here in this thread. I never even got the right buffer. 45 2.1 may think he told me the right buffer, but it wasn't exactly clear. Ask BaBore the same question see what he says about the buffer. All I got was use the buffer, find that load area where the powder and buffer meet before the case shoulder, and to just use 3100 powder. Well Joe didn't have 3100. So I used 4895 and 4350. They worked in that narrow window for me in both 6.5's...but only 4895 worked in the 6.5MS and 4350 worked in the Swede. I wasn't wasting my powder to get them to work in both. So I asked 45 2.1 about using 4831 as it's very close to 3100. He said I could but it wasn't as good. That's where the 4831 comes from both of us. Use those two slow powders and find the sweet spot. Just try for velocity above 2000 fps with accuracy. Preferably 2200-2300 fps. This is not a test or contest to duplicate my load...which I've been told countless times over and over by 45 2.1. I also told 45 2.1 when I got the 3100 or 4831 and found the sweet spot I would be working on a load just using dacron that would work. His exact words were "It'll never happen" We shall see. So see, you and others got more then what I got to start with.

No, I'm not sending the ammo. Answer A...no...that's my final decision. Like on the contest show You Want To Be A Millionaire.

Nobody sent me squat...I had to figure it all out for myself. I even started using Swede brass...wasn't at first told that I couldn't do it without using 06 brass. Then it took me quite some time to get military 06 brass at a decent price.

Joe

[felix]

There are many load configurations that should work. You should at least find a couple with what you have on the shelf. In the long run, you should use a slow powder which has that chemical which controls the burn within a wide temperature range. Aren't the powders called "extreme" powders? This would be important to me when loading ammo for storage or unknown firing conditions. ... felix

[StarMetal]

There are many load configurations that should work. You should at least find a couple with what you have on the shelf. In the long run, you should use a slow powder which has that chemical which controls the burn within a wide temperature range. Aren't the powders called "extreme" powders? This would be important to me when loading ammo for storage or unknown firing conditions. ... felix

Yup and here's what Hodgdon says about their Extreme powder:

Our exclusive line of extruded rifle powders – Hodgdon Extreme™ – was developed to give shooters consistent performance, load after load, in even the most extreme heat and cold.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

Starmetal

Okay I will continue to test on my own. It is very exasperating to do that and then have 45 2.1 in particular tell me to go to the sweet spot and not make "random" loads and my method is all screwed up to paraphrase it. I did not ask for "the" load. I asked for a starting point to work and test from in both directions. You guys don't want to give that up and want to keep with the mysterious stuff that is fine. Just don't whine at the results of what I do then when I post them. Also if you don't send the ammo that's fine with me as you'll have no say then whether I am successful or not. A while back in the RPM thread you, 45 2.1 and several others said the RPM threshold theory was my idea so the onus was on me to prove it. Well, the shoe is on the other foot. This "idea" of being able to shoot HV 6.5 cast bullets accurately using the plastic buffer as a filler is 45 2.1 and your idea. It is you who must prove it. Another forum member was going to come to your place and shoot with you to watch you shoot and verify your claims. You refused that. Now I have requested to test your loads (heck I've offered to pay shipping and give you $1 per round and would even return the brass) and you are refusing. Thus we are left with only heresay that this has been done. I'm sure you can see the skepticism here. However, as I have said in the past I hope the two of you are right and we can shoot cast bullets at HV out of the 6.5 Swede with accuracy. So I will continue to attempt to prove it without your help.

I do not look at this as a contest. Although I find you're saying that after all the challenges to shoot the Mex Swede as accurately at 2200+ fps as you say you have to be somewhat contradictory. My goal here is simply as stated before but I'll tell you again; you and 45 2.1 say you have a "technique" whereby you shoot very accurate cast bullet loads at 2200+ fps out of a 6.5 Swede. You both have said it is "dangerous" and thus the secrecy and mystery. I say, (now make sure you get it this time), is to duplicate the accuracy at 2200+ fps using your "technique and to determine if there is a "dngerous" aspect with sudden pressure problems. No contest, nada, none.

I will be posting the results of my tests as I complete them.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Starmetal

Okay I will continue to test on my own. It is very exasperating to do that and then have 45 2.1 in particular tell me to go to the sweet spot and not make "random" loads and my method is all screwed up to paraphrase it. I did not ask for "the" load. I asked for a starting point to work and test from in both directions. You guys don't want to give that up and want to keep with the mysterious stuff that is fine. Just don't whine at the results of what I do then when I post them. Also if you don't send the ammo that's fine with me as you'll have no say then whether I am successful or not. A while back in the RPM thread you, 45 2.1 and several others said the RPM threshold theory was my idea so the onus was on me to prove it. Well, the shoe is on the other foot. This "idea" of being able to shoot HV 6.5 cast bullets accurately using the plastic buffer as a filler is 45 2.1 and your idea. It is you who must prove it. Another forum member was going to come to your place and shoot with you to watch you shoot and verify your claims. You refused that. Now I have requested to test your loads (heck I've offered to pay shipping and give you $1 per round and would even return the brass) and you are refusing. Thus we are left with only heresay that this has been done. I'm sure you can see the skepticism here. However, as I have said in the past I hope the two of you are right and we can shoot cast bullets at HV out of the 6.5 Swede with accuracy. So I will continue to attempt to prove it without your help.

I do not look at this as a contest. Although I find you're saying that after all the challenges to shoot the Mex Swede as accurately at 2200+ fps as you say you have to be somewhat contradictory. My goal here is simply as stated before but I'll tell you again; you and 45 2.1 say you have a "technique" whereby you shoot very accurate cast bullet loads at 2200+ fps out of a 6.5 Swede. You both have said it is "dangerous" and thus the secrecy and mystery. I say, (now make sure you get it this time), is to duplicate the accuracy at 2200+ fps using your "technique and to determine if there is a "dngerous" aspect with sudden pressure problems. No contest, nada, none.

I will be posting the results of my tests as I complete them.

Larry Gibson

Larry Larry Larry,

Where to begin. 45 2.1 did not ever give me starting loads. Not even a hint of. I through my years of reloading for cast picked a starting point. I looked at the jacketed loading manuals for the powders I used and then reduced them and used that for a beginning. I also knew what the 25 to 30 grains 4895 did in cast loads for cases like the 260, 7x57, 06, 7.7 Jap, 7.65 Argie, and the 8x57 Mauser would do..with Dacron. So I just picked a load as stated and shot and shot and shot while adjusting the powder and the filler. It did not go like this Ring Ring Joe "Hello?" "Hello Joe, 45 2.1 here" 45 2.1. 45 2.1 "Joe here's the powder to use and here's the number of grains for the Swede with the Kurtz bullet, and then fill the buffer up to a tad higher then where the base of the bullet will end up after seated" Joe "Okay 45 2.1, thanks, I'll give that try and report back". Click . No it didn't go like that one iota Larry. Like I posted earlier you and the rest of the members know a heck of a lot more then what I started out with. I wish the hell BaBore would chime in and tell his version of what I'm trying to say.

All I can tell you is my 6.5 Grendel, 6.5MS, and my 6.5 Swede shoot like I said they do. After this is all over I may never again post targets nor divulge and results of shooting or loads. I wish I didn't have a camera. All those targets I posted were actual, both the bug hole 100 yard groups, the 300 yard Grendel group, and the latest jug shot. I've become totally devoted to shooting the 6.5 calibers and neglecting all my other rifles. Heck I got a new mould from BaBore in 22 caliber specifically for the Hornet and haven't really fooled with it any. Lately however I have messed with cutting down 45AR rims to fit my Ruger Blackhawk ACP cylinder and waiting on brass from my best friend in CO.

I'm not even answering the rpms sentence except to say we've done it and that cast bullets (without PP) can achieve jacketed velocities through careful reloading.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

Starmetal

Okay, so you make it sound like the way 45 2.1 did it was the hard way. BaBore has already told me the same story pretty much. We all agree that was the hard way and really see no reason for that way of doing it. So what myself and everyone else wants to know is why we have to go about it "Bob's" way? Why not just make the information available in a straight forward easy to read and decipher manner? Well you guys don't want to do that so ok. I will just experiment the same as you did except I'll back my experiments with data.

You know I'll bet every one here, including myself would jump at the chance if someone offered to pressure test their loads and even pay them for the ammo to do it!. I have had several requests to pressure test ammo from members here and I've tested the loads for them, many times at my own expense let alone own time and use of an expensive machine. It strikes us all as strange that you do not. It also strikes us as strange that you do not shoot those loads with anyone else around. If you are going to make such claims it is only common sense that you have witnesses or assist someone else in doing it. Otherwise many think it is just smoke and mirrors. I must be the dumb one out here because I take it at face value, hope it really can be done and am going to great lengths and expense to attempt to do it.

Yes we can carefully load some cast bullets up to some pretty good velocities and equal jacketed bullet velocities. Accuracy from most such loads is another story. With some cartridge/rifle combinations its not difficult because of the slower twists, the Hornet being a good example. However are you now telling us we can load the '06 with a 10" twist upwards of 2800-2950 fps with a 150 gr cast bullet (sans a PP) and achieve anything that resembles accuracy? That gets us off onto another topic so let's just not go there. Let's stick with the 6.5 Swede and getting cast bullets to shoot 2200+ fps with some semblence of good accuracy. I would settle for 1 1/2 moa as "good accuracy". I will keep testing without your help, thanks anyways.

Larry Gibson

[PAT303]

Yup and here's what Hodgdon says about their Extreme powder:

Our exclusive line of extruded rifle powders – Hodgdon Extreme™ – was developed to give shooters consistent performance, load after load, in even the most extreme heat and cold.

Joe

Thats Mulwex powder from Australia,the best powder in the world.I'm going to start with AR2217,Hodgden H1000 as it follows the information on thread #252 better.It fills the case to just below the shoulder at around 40grns. Pat

[PAT303]

I could safely say that I,like many others are getting a bit bored with the too and throwing that always seems to happen on 6.5 threads.When I comes to good groups there wouldn't be a time ever where people would not start to ask questions on how it was achieved,you must have realised Joe that posting up a picture of a tiny group and a first round hit on a milk jug at 300 yards would have got peoples ears up,I also feel that 45 2.1 comments about ''there is a small group of people that know the secrets and stay away from public forums like the plague'' line is negative at best,people want to learn,thats why we are here.Maybe if ''we'' are so below the important people maybe ''they'' should start thier own forum,the rest of us can be happy with 1 1/2 groups and the experts can take thier secrets to the grave.How about Larry you follow instructions,Joe you keep posting up good results and the rest of us will learn something new everyday. Pat

[StarMetal]

Okay, another stab at it. What I've told here is all I know about it. I was never told the full story....just like you Larry and the rest of you. For those getting bored it isn't my fault, it's Larry constant begging for more info, which I do not have, and to send my loads to him.

Larry I don't care if you believe me or not. Just like my sixth grade teacher use to say "It's no skin off my nose". Sent my ammo to you. My goodness, that's the most stupid thing I've heard on this forum yet. Can't do it by yourself so I have to load it for you. Remember when I was shooting the bug holes with the 6.5MS. You said I have to post pictures of the targets which were five consecutive 5 shot groups and I had to post the pictures of the Chrono screen reading all the groups and velocities. I did that. Now you or someone else has to come to TN to see me shoot. Ridiculous. You realize how ridiculous you sound? First off there are very few people on this forum that I want to meet, alone come to my home.

Now this is what I know about loading the Swede. Use military 06 brass to get the thick necks. Size your bullets .268. Use a quality lube like LBT or one of Lars top line lubes. You use the shot shell buffer showed on Midways website. The original all white standard shot shell buffer. You want to use slow powders in the AA3100 and H4831 range. You can use 4350 for the Swede but will have a harder time finding that sweet spot. I got 4895 to work with the 6.5MS but didn't continue on to get it to work with the Swede. That doesn't mean it won't, it means I wasn't burning up my supply of 4895 to find out when there are better powders. Now I know 45 2.1 said to load the powder a dime thickness before the shoulder, well you can play with that too. I've gone more then 1/8 below the shoulder, but be warned the further below you go the more danger you can get into. Besides getting lower then that there's not enough of the slower powder even with the buffer to get the velocities. I use an expander .002 smaller the my bullet and I crimp the case. I don't use magnum primers and my loads were developed with Wolf primers. I've mainly used the Kurtz bullet, but also have the same bullet Larry started off with, then I have another Lyman that has the double gas check shank, I have some Cruise Missiles, I had a Lyman 266469 mould but sold it (it didn't drop fat enough for my Swede) and just recently bought BaBores remake of the 469. Since I've just got that I've only shot a few rounds of it. My 140 grain Saeco is almost totally bore rider and there is too much throat to use it.

One more final and last time. There was never no majic starting load. I never got one. Larry knows my load for the Swede when I posted the target and the load for the 6.5MS when I posted those targets. 45 2.1 gave nobody that I know of the starting loads. He just told me what I just described above except it was never clear on the buffer and BaBore will back me up on that. I wasted a lot components shooting the wrong buffer and I also wasted some shooting that undersized Lyman 266469 I sold.

Now if there are any honest and on tracks I can answer fire away.
I'm sick of hearing from Larry that I'm not helping him. I'll answer any decent question about him that isn't belly aching about sending him my ammo or who's saw me shoot.

Joe

[geargnasher]

Thats Mulwex powder from Australia,the best powder in the world.I'm going to start with AR2217,Hodgden H1000 as it follows the information on thread #252 better.It fills the case to just below the shoulder at around 40grns. Pat

What brand/type of cases?

Gear

[StarMetal]

I could safely say that I,like many others are getting a bit bored with the too and throwing that always seems to happen on 6.5 threads.When I comes to good groups there wouldn't be a time ever where people would not start to ask questions on how it was achieved,you must have realised Joe that posting up a picture of a tiny group and a first round hit on a milk jug at 300 yards would have got peoples ears up,I also feel that 45 2.1 comments about ''there is a small group of people that know the secrets and stay away from public forums like the plague'' line is negative at best,people want to learn,thats why we are here.Maybe if ''we'' are so below the important people maybe ''they'' should start thier own forum,the rest of us can be happy with 1 1/2 groups and the experts can take thier secrets to the grave.How about Larry you follow instructions,Joe you keep posting up good results and the rest of us will learn something new everyday. Pat

Pat

I got the load for that Swede and it's just like a favorite jacketed load that's sighted in. My Swede is sighted in at 100 yards and now at 300 with my next mil dot down on the recticle. Unknown to all here I've been shooting groundhogs and crows all along. I recently missed a feral cat exactly where that milk jug was. That's the reason for the milk jug shot, to see why I didn't hit the cat. Reason: I shot way over it. I took another feral cat out years ago with the very first shot from my 6.5 Grendel at exactly 100 yards. He was facing me and it was literally between the eyes. I have distances marked off around my farm. I've also nailed a crow or two with my scoped Yugo SKS.

By the way H1000 is too slow and that AA2217 sounds too fast.

Joe

[swheeler]

By the way H1000 is too slow and that AA2217 sounds too fast.

Joe


Joe I think they are the exact same powder, just Aussie designation.

[geargnasher]

Joe, thanks for posting all that, I just wish you had come out with it about six pages ago!

Gear

[felix]

Try Aussie 2213. ... felix