Milk Jug 300 Yard 6.5 Swede

[Pat I.]

I answered your questions in good faith. I told you what I think the differences are. There's a discrepancy over Larry's chamber in that MexSwede rifle. Even Dutch, who is probably the most knowledgeable person on Swedes on the forum has raised an eyebrow in question.

No more arguing please and I didn't see where you explained what you thought the differences were, could you point it out for me please? Most chambers are going to be .020 to .040 longer than maximum cartridge OAL, and in military rifles maybe more, so unless Larry didn't trim his brass to spec I don't think the neck pinching is an issue. If the bolt closes even with a little resistance it's not the same as pushing the shoulder back which is what would need to be done to have it pinch the bullet in the case neck if it was short chambered and the brass was trimmed to spec. I don't think setting the shoulder back even .020 is something you're going to be able to do with the bolt unless you use a good stout hammer.

Ask Felix is lube can change your velocity to a measurable degree.

I was under the impression that both Larry and you used LBT Blue. I've never se a lube change make a difference of 300 fps though.

I also sent you that Hodgdon data on loading jacketed 6.5 Grendel with H4198 in good faith. Did I get an acknowledgment? No. Where's your good faith?

You sent me the same information you posted before and my question at the time was about the velocity, pressure, and accuracy you said you were getting so lets leave that alone for the time being. We seem to have a disagreement with that and maybe someday we can shoot together and settle it. We're not talking about the Grendel anyway.
[/QUOTE]

I'm seriously wanting to see what you guys are doing and if either of us come across as a little strong headed it's probably caused by past friction. Let's leave that out here if possible.

[felix]

Nah, Joe, I don't think so. I just think Larry is tired, and hates to admit it, like all of us older farts. ... felix

[StarMetal]

I answered your questions in good faith. I told you what I think the differences are. There's a discrepancy over Larry's chamber in that MexSwede rifle. Even Dutch, who is probably the most knowledgeable person on Swedes on the forum has raised an eyebrow in question.

No more arguing please and I didn't see where you explained what you thought the differences were, could you point it out for me please? Most chambers are going to be .020 to .040 longer than maximum cartridge OAL, and in military rifles maybe more, so unless Larry didn't trim his brass to spec I don't think the neck pinching is an issue. If the bolt closes even with a little resistance it's not the same as pushing the shoulder back which is what would need to be done to have it pinch the bullet in the case neck if it was short chambered and the brass was trimmed to spec. I don't think setting the shoulder back even .020 is something you're going to be able to do with the bolt unless you use a good stout hammer.

Ask Felix is lube can change your velocity to a measurable degree.

I was under the impression that both Larry and you used LBT Blue. I've never se a lube change make a difference of 300 fps though.

I also sent you that Hodgdon data on loading jacketed 6.5 Grendel with H4198 in good faith. Did I get an acknowledgment? No. Where's your good faith?

You sent me the same information you posted before and my question at the time was about the velocity, pressure, and accuracy you said you were getting so lets leave that alone for the time being. We seem to have a disagreement with that and maybe someday we can shoot together and settle it. We're not talking about the Grendel anyway.

I'm seriously wanting to see what you guys are doing and if either of us come across as a little strong headed it's probably caused by past friction. Let's leave that out here if possible.[/QUOTE]

Pat,

It's in post #347 where I said all the differences are. I didn't include that if his chamber is tighter and his bore and groove, that will add to a difference.

No lube, as far as I've experimented, won't make a 300 fps difference, but all those differences added together in that post #347 will. I'll explain the lube again. I started off with the 6.5MS using exclusively LBT Blue lube. Then I got groups with it. Next I finally received my Swede and went ahead and mounted the scope. By the time I got the Swede I had my soap lube perfected. So I started testing the Swede with it as I was confident in it. So the Swede groups and velocities were done with my soap lube. Then I went back and tried the soap lube in the 6.5MS. It didn't change anything so now the soap lube is what I use for all my loads in everything. I used the soap lube in my Finn 39 shooting the Lyman 314299 over 40 grains of AA4350 with the filler for 2000 fps + velocity and 10 shots into literally one ragged hole....100 yards of course.

One more thing, take two of the same brand rifles in the same calibers and the velocities between them won't be the same, yes they won't, or shouldn't, be more then 300 fps different.

Throw in this too, who's to say my chronograph is accurate? Or Larrys for that matter. Would be interesting to have them both side by side. That's another difference.

Please ask me more questions if this hasn't explained it.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1

So why should my different rifle be different? If it is a real Swede and not your parts gun, it probably wouldn't be different. If you can do it, as you have claimed for years, then there should be no reason I can't do it with a different rifle. Is there? If your able and "that" is what we've been trying to establish so the test results will be accurate.

I have not claimed to shoot the 6.5 Swede accurately at 2200+ fps like you and Joe have. Quite the contrary I argued it couldn't very likely be done (that's not saying I said it was impossible) because of the RPM threshold. I have claimed to get 'good accuracy" (that's not saying the best accuracy BTW) at 19-2000 fps like you originally claimed. You don't even have a 6.5 Swede and have not really done it yourself as Joe has stated. Maybe you should as Joe recently suggested, before you throw rocks at what I'm doing? I only conducted the first test. I told what I had done and where I had deviated. I posted the results. I really don't understand why Joe and you are trying to prove my results wrong? There was no accuracy but so what? I am still testing and still working toward accuracy. Perhaps if you would be helpful instead of negative we'd all get some where.

Are you not going to send the rifle and test ammo? Now why would he send you his rifle and ammo when you say there is no reason you can't do it?[/QUOTE]

Simply because I could give him the internal data for his loads. The pressure would also help to determine if there was a "danger" to this or if perhaps there is something else giving "hard bolt lift". I also got hard bolt lift during my test with the same powder Joe used and there was no indication of high pressure or "danger". Perhaps that's where you're upset; you percieved something that isn't panning out in your own mind. I've not completed the tests yet, particularly with the "original" filler. Thus I don't know and I am not assuming anything. If Joe doesn't at least send some test ammo a lot of forum members are going to call BS on him and his claims.

I really hope what you and Joe say can be done can really be done. It would be a major break through in our hobby. Your and Joe's help instead of continual pessimism would really be appreciated by all.

Larry Gibson

[Pat I.]

I deleted my posts from here because they added nothing to the topic. I'll go back to lurker mode.

[Larry Gibson]

Felix

I'll bite; here is what I posted. Where does it say I wasn't using reformed '06 cases or they didn't fit the neck as they are suppose to. This is copied from my test report. Joe can go find where I said otherwise. Another point I'd like to make is I have measured numerous 6.5 chambers including their necks. They all taper from the neck shoulder junction forward thus a cylindrically turned case neck isn't exactly a perfect fit either. Yet we do the best we can. Perhaps 45 2.1 should go get a M38 Swede, as joe has suggested, and shoot his own loads. He might bother to mic the chamber neck while he's at it.

"The brass is well fire formed and necks are trued. Primers used were Remington 9 1/2s. The bullet is a 266455 that drops at .267-.268 when cast of WW/lead 50/50 alloy. The test barrel is .266 in the grooves. The throat is also .266 and an unsized .267 bullet gets shoved back into the case by the chamber throat. I seat the GCs first, then push them nose first into the .266 H die in the 450. The bullets are then lubed in the same .266 H die with LBT Soft Blue lube. The bullet fully dressed weighs right at 130 gr and looks exactly like the one starmetal posted that he got from 45 2.1.

•To actually load the cartridge involves simple hand loading methods. You need dies which will accept the somewhat (0.268”+) boolit. Several die sets will not until altered. You also need a neck expander about 0.001" below your boolit diameter to expand and flare the neck with. It also helps with some powders to taper crimp the case neck lightly.

The case necks are sized in a Redding bushing die giving .001 - .002” tension on the bullets. The bullets are seated so the front driving band is just off the lande. This puts the Top of the GC right at the base of the neck. I use a 7x57 die to seat the over sized bullets. A check on concentricity shows minimal runout (close to the best I get with cast bullets which is .001 - .004”. I did not crimp any of the loads and will include that in the next test."

It would be nice to get a little cooperation out of them. I am indeed getting tired. Tired of the continual critisisms here when the testing isn't done and I've not even drawn any conclusion yet. They did the same on the RPM threshold thread; attempting to prove every thing wrong when the testing wasn't done. They have a hard time accepting the facts of a test for what they are. Apparently if the facts don't agree with their preconceived ideas then the facts are wrong. Problem is it doesn't work out that way.

It would be nice if Joe (starmetal) would reconsider on sending the ammo for me to test. I would pay him $50 for 50 rounds and pay the shipping also. I would also return the cases to him.

I shall continue the test. I am going to continue to use the same rifle; the "abortion". I kind of like that name for it It tshoots was well as any other 6.5 Swede and better than a lot of them. The further test results will be posted.

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

[QUOTE=Larry Gibson;775700]
I have not claimed to shoot the 6.5 Swede accurately at 2200+ fps like you and Joe have. Quite the contrary I argued it couldn't very likely be done (that's not saying I said it was impossible) because of the RPM threshold. I have claimed to get 'good accuracy" (that's not saying the best accuracy BTW) at 19-2000 fps like you originally claimed. You don't even have a 6.5 Swede and have not really done it yourself as Joe has stated. I assume you are having one of your numerous funnies here. I have quite a few of those things and have had for a very long time. Enough of your s**t stirring. Maybe you should as Joe recently suggested, before you throw rocks at what I'm doing? I only conducted the first test. Test of what? You need to adhere to the actual load, not something you make up. I told what I had done and where I had deviated. I posted the results. I really don't understand why Joe and you are trying to prove my results wrong? Everybody wants a test of the load, same prep, same boolit, same components in a stock Swede rifle. Its not really that hard to understand....or is it? Do you get it yet? There was no accuracy but so what? Really, just pull up some made up load and test it. You really don't, and probably won't, get it. The load is for everyone, not for some machination of yours. If it doesn't use the same things, what good will it be to anybody. I am still testing and still working toward accuracy. Perhaps if you would be helpful instead of negative we'd all get some where. It would be quite helpfull for you to duplicate the load, which you have wanted for quite some time, as you said you could and test it, not everything in between.


Simply because I could give him the internal data for his loads. The pressure would also help to determine if there was a "danger" to this or if perhaps there is something else giving "hard bolt lift". I also got hard bolt lift during my test with the same powder Joe used At 2 gr. above Hogdon's listed maximum load for the same weight jacketed bullet. A quite unsafe test you conducted. and there was no indication of high pressure or "danger". Considering Hogdon has a complete testing facility, I wonder how you got those safe results keeping in mind the data was for modern rifles and not a lower pressure Swede action (or the Mex. action you have). Considering what you say, I have some doubts about your initial results and interpertation thereof. Perhaps that's where you're upset; you percieved something that isn't panning out in your own mind. I've not completed the tests yet, particularly with the "original" filler. Thus I don't know and I am not assuming anything. If Joe doesn't at least send some test ammo a lot of forum members are going to call BS on him and his claims. I can understand Joe's reluctance considering your statements about what you already did...................BTW, shoot a real Swede, or do you really have one.

I really hope what you and Joe say can be done can really be done. It would be a major break through in our hobby. The breakthru has been around for about 20 years and is alive and well in certain circles, just not here due to continual pesticism from you and some others.

[StarMetal]

Wow...Red Blue Red Blue...it's hard to keep up with what political party is which here. I'll try. Okay, Larry, this isn't an argument, it's an observation. You have a knack for twisting things up and making it look plausible in print. I've never said 45 2.1 doesn't have a Swede. I've talked to him about all the stuff he has for loading for the Swede. He even uses a special die to form his 06 brass. You brought it up so we'll discuss it, your rpm theory. Here's a little poem I wrote about it: Your bullet is spinning through another dimension, a dimension not only of twist,
velocity, bullet length, but the BS theory, a journey into a wondrous land of BS and fabrication....That's the target up ahead.....your next stop, the
RPM Threshold Zone.

That's what I think about it because 45 2.1 , myself and others haven't seen that. Perhaps that is what scares many novice cast reloaders away from trying it with fast twists. Everything has been said about it negatively here. You can't use that soft of an alloy in that fast twist Swede. Yeah? Well tell my rifle and bullets that. Tell my MS that too and also my 6.5 Grendel and my AR15. I've shot some good groups with that AR15 and the 70 grain NEI bullet, but haven't talked about it nor posted any targets here. Actually I'm not satisfied yet and am waiting for 45 2.1 to draw up a heavy .224 bullet (drop fatter of course) and present it to BaBore for a mold. I believe other's are waiting on a heavy bullet for their AR's too. But at any rate we got that rpm BS. Then came the bending bullets theory. Hey you fellows remember when Oldfeller cast some 6.5 bullets with steel roller bearing cores and mailed them to Buckshot for testing?????? Gee, what makes you think he would do that??????? Was he after armor piercing 6.5's NO...he wasn't....he got caught up in the bending bullet BS. Remember the analogy of putting a straight piece of copper wire in a variable speed drill and spinning it slowly noting the wire doesn't bend, then spinning it fast it it bends out to the likes of an airplane propeller???? Huh? Remember that analogy. Well I do....I remember all of it and have taken dung from many forum members, Larry being one of them.

Larry I doubt sincerely my ammo will fit your MexSwede chamber and I doubt it will fit your M38 chamber. It's neck sized only and fits my chamber to a tee. Let me point out another thing you done wrong in your testing. You said the bullet pushed against the throat and then got pushed backed into the cartridge case. Well Bud, that's wrong.

Joe

[felix]

It really makes no difference about the ammo, Larry. The ammo HAS to be made for the gun being shot because the load required would have to be on the bleeding edge to work as advertised. And, Joe, you cannot bring the 22s into this discussion because those boolits do not have near the inertia those missiles have. We are talking about case capacity, twist, and boolit inertia all taken together for ONLY ONE type of shootin' match here. What counts is that you and Bob have to get HIS system (him and his gun of choice) to shoot commensurately with yours and Bob's. ... felix

[StarMetal]

It really makes no difference about the ammo, Larry. The ammo HAS to be made for the gun being shot because the load required would have to be on the bleeding edge to work as advertised. And, Joe, you cannot bring the 22s into this discussion because those boolits do not have near the inertia those missiles have. We are talking about case capacity, twist, and boolit inertia all taken together for ONLY ONE type of shootin' match here. What counts is that you and Bob have to get HIS system (him and his gun of choice) to shoot commensurately with yours and Bob's. ... felix

Felix,

The 22's were only mentioned because of the fast twist rpm thing. We've tried to get him shooting, but he elected so far to go ahead and test with the wrong buffer and some different procedures we didn't suggest. I'll fore go that he used a different bullet. In talking with 45 2.1 we concluded that bullet he used can be shot well but more then likely it's not going to be a load that matches using the Kurtz. This brings to light one thing I didn't mention about bullet diameter. I have stated I'm sizing .268. Well using the same load load, bullet and all, but the bullet sized to .267.....I couldn't get the same good results.

Joe

[felix]

Joe, that should be obvious. What Larry needs to realize is that we are emulating breech seating with a necked case, and all the rules that are specific to that endeavor. That means everything MUST be tight. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Joe, that should be obvious. What Larry needs to realize is that we are emulating breech seating with a necked case, and all the rules that are specific to that endeavor. That means everything MUST be tight. ... felix

Wouldn't it stand to reason his load shot a different velocity then mine, aside from that fact it wasn't exactly the same bullet and load data, that pushing the bullet further inside the case changed things?

Joe

[scrapcan]

OK I may have started some of this mud slinging. The slinging is **** any way you look at it, it should stop.

I offered once fired LC brass and the swede loaner mould both out of interest in the subject and the testing at hand.

The brass was offered as I know it is what is being talked about for reforming. Larry has told us he has done the case reform with the type of brass beign called out in the instructions. Enough on the brass not being right.

Also on the filler question, how the hell is one to know what is to be used until it was called out. I would not have known which brand and which type to use, but I do now.

As far as the use a true swede, I think the original thread many moons ago that I was part of was actually started by a member with a commercial 6.5x55 rifle not a milsurp. I bit back then and bought a swede96 rifle and a group buy mould to aid in the learning. I learned alot, but not of the level to share in this topic of HV with accuracy.

I did the pound slug and sent them off. They were measured and drawn by 45 2.1, I appreciate that. I am still trying to get good results at low velocity and as such I am living vicariously through Larry, Joe, and Bob. And I would like to live the vicarious life to the fullest.

Has that been done in this instance? Do we know where we stand as far as thos dimensions for Larry's rifle?

Stop bickering and let the tester do his tests. I thought he spelled it out pretty well what he did. Deviance from the prescribed method could have been noted without the bickering and it still can. If you see something wrong give him some guidance, not just a slap upside the head.

Man we have almost two pages of posts that are derogatory towards one or another. No wonder the swedes tried to stay neutral, their rifles and cartridges can devide the world all by themselves.

[StarMetal]

OK I may have started some of this mud slinging. The slinging is **** any way you look at it, it should stop.

I offered once fired LC brass and the swede loaner mould both out of interest in the subject and the testing at hand.

The brass was offered as I know it is what is being talked about for reforming. Larry has told us he has done the case reform with the type of brass beign called out in the instructions. Enough on the brass not being right.

Also on the filler question, how the hell is one to know what is to be used until it was called out. I would not have known which brand and which type to use, but I do now.

As far as the use a true swede, I think the original thread many moons ago that I was part of was actually started by a member with a commercial 6.5x55 rifle not a milsurp. I bit back then and bought a swede96 rifle and a group buy mould to aid in the learning. I learned alot, but not of the level to share in this topic of HV with accuracy.

I did the pound slug and sent them off. They were measured and drawn by 45 2.1, I appreciate that. I am still trying to get good results at low velocity and as such I am living vicariously through Larry, Joe, and Bob. And I would like to live the vicarious life to the fullest.

Has that been done in this instance? Do we know where we stand as far as thos dimensions for Larry's rifle?

Stop bickering and let the tester do his tests. I thought he spelled it out pretty well what he did. Deviance from the prescribed method could have been noted without the bickering and it still can. If you see something wrong give him some guidance, not just a slap upside the head.

Man we have almost two pages of posts that are derogatory towards one or another. No wonder the swedes tried to stay neutral, their rifles and cartridges can devide the world all by themselves.

Manley,

I can honestly tell you I've never fired any of the 6.5's at low velocity nor with any pistol powers. Mine have been full hilt right off the bat. All except for one: I started the 6.5 Grendel off on 4227 to see if that AR15 was going to shoot. It did and immediately got switched to rifle powder.

I didn't start this fiasco, Larry did. I just pointed out what was wrong with his test. In fact we talked about what he had loaded privately and I can't remember if I told him to pull it apart, but I did tell him the loads were too high and the buffer was different, which he knew. He was optimistic going into the test and after the test began slinging mud at 45 2.1 and myself. I would give him some Kurtz bullets but I don't have the mold either. I'm waiting for BaBore to cut the first one.

Joe

[leftiye]

Good Avatar joe, very fitting here. IMHO

[45 2.1]

Do we know where we stand as far as thos dimensions for Larry's rifle? From the description he has given, his Mexican action parts gun Swede IS NOT a typical Swede. The method given is strictly for as issued Swedes.

Stop bickering and let the tester do his tests. On what may I ask? Do you really think a non standard rifle is going to give you real data? I thought he spelled it out pretty well what he did. True, and he may as well test something else. It is not a Swede.........period. Thats a line he has used himself. Deviance from the prescribed method could have been noted without the bickering and it still can. If it deviates, then it is not the prescribed method, but then it is his method and he has already stated he doesn't regard accuracy. You and everybody else can already shoot it without accuracy. Is that what you're wanting? If you see something wrong give him some guidance He hasn't responded to ANY guidance so far, just alterations of it to suit him. Exactly how do you intend to get him to test the actual method with a real Swede? We can take up a collection and send some proper cartridges (Joe might even load them) to H.P. White and get some real authoritative data instead of this gobbledegook runaround. How about it?, not just a slap upside the head.

If you want accuracy and pertinent results, stick to the method exactly..............................

[StarMetal]

Larry,

I'm at a lost as to why you didn't use the M38 that you have scoped. Get the right buffer, follow the instructions to a tee, and repeat the test using the M38. I have a feeling you used the MexSwede in order to have a compatible rifle to my scoped and triggered M96. Forget about beating me. Concentrate on just being able to do this.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,

I'm at a lost as to why you didn't use the M38 that you have scoped. Get the right buffer, follow the instructions to a tee, and repeat the test using the M38. I have a feeling you used the MexSwede in order to have a compatible rifle to my scoped and triggered M96. Forget about beating me. Concentrate on just being able to do this.

Joe

starmetal

I can not believe you want to call me a liar and say I twist things around and then you post that. Go back and research your own posts. Ever since you shot those 5 groups with your 6.5 you have been goading me to shoot HV with the Mexican 6.5. That is why I used the Mex 6.5, because that was your challenge to me. This is at least the second time I've told you that in this thread.

Also you did not tel me to pull down my test loads not did you tell me not to use the Mex Swede. I gave you the load detals for both powders and also told you of the filler I was using. You said they should be alright and wanted to see the results of the test. Now your saying something totally different.

At this point I really don't care what you say or do. I am going to stop bickering with you over any point in this test or any further tests. Everyone except a very few of you know that a good load will shoot good in a good rifle. The Mex Swede is a good rifle and so is my M38. If you don't want to send ammo for me to pressure velocity test then everyone else see's that for what it is; you taking your football and going home. I think everyone knows the reason you won't send ammo is because you are afraid of what my tests will reveal. However that, Joe, is a false fear. I don't care wheter your loads are accurate in my M38 or not. What I want is the velocity and pressure data. I want that to establish the goal for my own loads to reach. If I can match the same velocity and pressure data withmy loads using the same internal componants then I can work on different bullets which 45 2.1 thinks is important. If it would make you feel better I won't even ost the accuracy of your loads in my M38 good, bad or indifferent.

Personally it means nothing to me as I am going to continue testing whether you send he ammo or not. You and 45 2.1 will come up with every criticism and excuse if I don't get accuacy and you will take all the credit if I do. The test conducted so far is what it is. Your bickering and complaints are not going to change the results. However, I am going to run those 4 test loads of AA4350 exactly the same through the M38. If the results come back the same I just can't wait to hear your and 45 2.1 excuses. Probably take me a few days to get to it so you have time to work on the excuses.

So how about just letting this lay until I post a new test with the M38, I am? I am tired of wasting my time on this computer with you. I would rather just conduct more shooting tests. Getting your ammo to test would really be a help regarless of 45 2.1s opinion on the matter.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

starmetal

I can not believe you want to call me a liar and say I twist things around and then you post that. Go back and research your own posts. Ever since you shot those 5 groups with your 6.5 you have been goading me to shoot HV with the Mexican 6.5. That is why I used the Mex 6.5, because that was your challenge to me. This is at least the second time I've told you that in this thread.

Also you did not tel me to pull down my test loads not did you tell me not to use the Mex Swede. I gave you the load detals for both powders and also told you of the filler I was using. You said they should be alright and wanted to see the results of the test. Now your saying something totally different.

At this point I really don't care what you say or do. I am going to stop bickering with you over any point in this test or any further tests. Everyone except a very few of you know that a good load will shoot good in a good rifle. The Mex Swede is a good rifle and so is my M38. If you don't want to send ammo for me to pressure velocity test then everyone else see's that for what it is; you taking your football and going home. I think everyone knows the reason you won't send ammo is because you are afraid of what my tests will reveal. However that, Joe, is a false fear. I don't care wheter your loads are accurate in my M38 or not. What I want is the velocity and pressure data. I want that to establish the goal for my own loads to reach. If I can match the same velocity and pressure data withmy loads using the same internal componants then I can work on different bullets which 45 2.1 thinks is important. If it would make you feel better I won't even ost the accuracy of your loads in my M38 good, bad or indifferent.

Personally it means nothing to me as I am going to continue testing whether you send he ammo or not. You and 45 2.1 will come up with every criticism and excuse if I don't get accuacy and you will take all the credit if I do. The test conducted so far is what it is. Your bickering and complaints are not going to change the results. However, I am going to run those 4 test loads of AA4350 exactly the same through the M38. If the results come back the same I just can't wait to hear your and 45 2.1 excuses. Probably take me a few days to get to it so you have time to work on the excuses.

So how about just letting this lay until I post a new test with the M38, I am? I am tired of wasting my time on this computer with you. I would rather just conduct more shooting tests. Getting your ammo to test would really be a help regarless of 45 2.1s opinion on the matter.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

I'm just going to jump over that post and say I'm not arguing. I'm trying to help you out, but you apparently don't see it that way. As for the MexSwede I was under the assumption that it was Mex action with a normal Swede barrel and chamber....it is not we come to find out. Even Dutch will comment to that. Now had I know you had the scoped M38 and it was bone stock I would have advised to use that. Would you like to place a money bet that my cases won't fit your M38 chamber??? I can mail you one empty case to find out. The chances of a necked size case, especially in a military rifle, fitting various rifles are slim. Let me give you another little bit of information. My reform 06 cases loaded with a sized .268 bullet mic at .323-.324. Ironically so do the 6.5MS's. Give me a measurement on your M38's chamber neck portion.

Joe

[robertbank]

Joe just as a suggestion why not send him five rds. If they don't fit in his rifle he can send them back to you. No harm done either way and you get the pressure results and he has a benchmark to match. Seems like a win, win situation.

Take Care

Bob