Milk Jug 300 Yard 6.5 Swede

[StarMetal]

Pat I,

Just by switching lubes I made two rifles shoot their loads 100 fps faster. The original lube was my homemade 50/50 alox/beeswax. The lube I switched to was again my own soap base. So now look at the data: Larry shot a different bullet, different lube (remember I started with LBT BLUE in the 6.5MS,but developed the Swede loads with my soap lube), different brass, different chamber, different bore and groove, different temperature, different elevation, different atmospheric pressure, different primer, different brand of powder, different buffer, and most of all a different chronograph placed at more likely at a different distance from the muzzle. That's an awful lot of differences Pat....don't you agree?

I remember once a friend of mine had a 22-250 Ruger and the load he chose from the manual was suppose to be around 3900 fps. The actual speed of his load was 3600 fps. Go figure.

I also feel at this point that you are nit picking to argue subtlety, as I remember your track record over on Accurate when Larry and I were at it there....and so were you. Remember you're the same person that argued sternly that I could shoot my Saeco cast from my AR15 6.5 Grendel using a certain load of H4198 without blowing it up. You never even replied to the recent Hodgdon loading data I sent you using that same powder. You said the load was dangerous.

Joe

[45 2.1]

Pat-I, you know the general rule about fillers in that they cannot be allowed to result in a plug which would provide significant resistance on their own merits. Ideally you would need a plastic that would melt (flow) at the exact moment of "perfect" pressure, which depends upon the obvious mechanical factors, such as neck angle and boolit inertia taken together. ... felix

Another filler which does this very thing is ground corn cob. It is quite usefull for abrupt case shape change useing a paper towell wad. Too much powder behind it will tear a piece of the case neck off and take it down the bore with the cob filler. DO NOT TRY THIS in the Swede with a boolit in front of it either.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, Bob and Joe,

Ok from reading it sounds like a different boolit and maybe reformed military cases would help Larry.

Larry if you want some lake city 06 brass and a loaner mould six cavity swede mould give me a holler. The mould is the the group buy mould that garandrus ran. For the sake of testing I would send the mould your way as a loaner.

As to the reformed '06 cases I'm not sure how Joe got some people thinking I wasn't using them. I am. I am using reformed U42 cases that have .020" thick necks. The bullet is .266 so .266 + 2 times .020 equals .308. That fits the chamber neck of my rifle as I described in the article I wrote and is posted in CastPics and what Joe and 45 2.1 say to do. So please, would everyone stop telling me my cases don't fit. What I said was that most reformed '06 cases won't have necks thick enough and they do not. I have reformed aenough of them to know.

I will gladly take the loan of the mould and really do appreciate the help I am getting from some on this matter. I'm not sure what the difference in moulds make anyway. My mould does shoot very nice groups at 19-2000 fps out of the test rifle with with that moulds cast bullets using several powders and a dacron filler. At .266 it fits the throat and groove depth of the test rifle. A .276 driving band of a cast bullet will not go into the throat. Anyways I will gladly try your bullet but how is it Joe makes justa bout any bullet do what he says and 45 2.1 says I have to use a special bullet? I am not wanting to complicate the test by using a myrid of bullets. Thanks again for the offer and help.

Larry Gibson

[felix]

Continuing what Bob said, as the pressure builds at the base of the boolit first, the case expands and can allow any granular filler to get between the boolit base and the case, thereby effectively DECREASING neck clearance. A hard necked case helps immensely when the neck clearance is critical and the boolit inertia high and the boolit hard. ... felix

[StarMetal]

As to the reformed '06 cases I'm not sure how Joe got some people thinking I wasn't using them. I am. I am using reformed U42 cases that have .020" thick necks. The bullet is .266 so .266 + 2 times .020 equals .308. That fits the chamber neck of my rifle as I described in the article I wrote and is posted in CastPics and what Joe and 45 2.1 say to do. So please, would everyone stop telling me my cases don't fit. What I said was that most reformed '06 cases won't have necks thick enough and they do not. I have reformed aenough of them to know.

I will gladly take the loan of the mould and really do appreciate the help I am getting from some on this matter. I'm not sure what the difference in moulds make anyway. My mould does shoot very nice groups at 19-2000 fps out of the test rifle with with that moulds cast bullets using several powders and a dacron filler. At .266 it fits the throat and groove depth of the test rifle. A .276 driving band of a cast bullet will not go into the throat. Anyways I will gladly try your bullet but how is it Joe makes justa bout any bullet do what he says and 45 2.1 says I have to use a special bullet? I am not wanting to complicate the test by using a myrid of bullets. Thanks again for the offer and help.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

Show me where I said you're not using reformed 06 cases. I'm pretty upset about this.

That's right, I can make just about every bullet do what I want out of those two rifles and have. I've also posted your required five shot groups on five different targets with pictures of the chronograph readings. So now it appears I've done it with a myriad of bullets and two entirely different rifles and caliber. You say you don't want to complicate the test by using a myriad of bullets, HA no doubt, you can't do it with the one.

Now show me where I 100 percent said you weren't using reformed 06 brass.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Continuing what Bob said, as the pressure builds at the base of the boolit first, the case expands and can allow any granular filler to get between the boolit base and the case, thereby effectively DECREASING neck clearance. A hard necked case helps immensely when the neck clearance is critical and the boolit inertia high and the boolit hard. ... felix

Weren't not using hard bullets exclusively.

Joe

[Pat I.]

Pat-I, you know the general rule about fillers in that they cannot be allowed to result in a plug which would provide significant resistance on their own merits. Ideally you would need a plastic that would melt (flow) at the exact moment of "perfect" pressure, which depends upon the obvious mechanical factors, such as neck angle and boolit inertia taken together. ... felix

I understand the concept of using a filler and have played with a few different kinds myself but have to say I've never heard of anyone blowing up a gun or getting a really significant velocity increase by using one over another. I've played with COW, Puflon, Grex, BPI Original or #47 and besides Cow the rest are just a plastic. What would cause one to be safe and another to be a time bomb. The knowledge of not adding it as an after thought to a maximum load is something to know but when building a load from the ground up what would make one give a 300 fps increase in velocity over another using the same load.

I wouldn't use corn cob, cream of wheat, or granola as a filler in any bottle necked case but that's not what's being talked about.

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal;

"Just by switching lubes I made two rifles shoot their loads 100 fps faster. The original lube was my homemade 50/50 alox/beeswax. The lube I switched to was again my own soap base. So now look at the data: Larry shot a different bullet, different lube (remember I started with LBT BLUE in the 6.5MS,but developed the Swede loads with my soap lube), different brass, different chamber, different bore and groove, different temperature, different elevation, different atmospheric pressure, different primer, different brand of powder, different buffer, and most of all a different chronograph placed at more likely at a different distance from the muzzle. That's an awful lot of differences Pat....don't you agree?"

The velocities I posted were corrected to muzzle velocities (the computor program gives that information also) so the screen distance is not relevent except your velocities would be a few fps slower. As to the other differences. The 6.5 Swede is not the only rilfe you make claims of high velocity with accuracy. You have stated numerous times and given numerous examples of many different rifles you do this with and with a multiple of different cast bullets, designs, lubes and powders along with home made aluminum GCs. You also state you have always done this because you started out shooting cast bullets that way. So why should my different rifle be different? If you can do it, as uyou have claimed for years, then there should be no reason I can't doit with a different rifle. Is there?

Are you not going to send the rifle and test ammo?

If not the rifle then at least the test ammo would/shouldn't be that difficuult? I will pay shipping and return the brass. If necessary I will also pay you for the componants. I would think that 50 rounds is doable and would give 40 rounds to "season" the bore with your lube and 10 for the test?

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

I understand the concept of using a filler and have played with a few different kinds myself but have to say I've never heard of anyone blowing up a gun or getting a really significant velocity increase by using one over another. I've played with COW, Puflon, Grex, BPI Original or #47 and besides Cow the rest are just a plastic. What would cause one to be safe and another to be a time bomb. The knowledge of not adding it as an after thought to a maximum load is something to know but when building a load from the ground up what would make one give a 300 fps increase in velocity over another using the same load.

Well stick around, maybe you'll learn something like I taught you about the AR15 and the 6.5 Grendel.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

[B]Show me where I said you're not using reformed 06 cases. I'm pretty upset about this.

Now you are wanting to argue again. I shall not go there. You can reread the posts if you like.

I am tired of all this compalining and criticising once again before the test is done. I shall continue the test as started and use manleyjt's bullet also. I will use "the correct" filler when it arrives but I will also use the #47 to see if there is any potential there as I've already paid for it. If you send me the rifle i will test your loads in it. If you send the test ammo I will test them in my rifle.

Shall we just let the test continue?

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

StarMetal;

Just by switching lubes I made two rifles shoot their loads 100 fps faster. The original lube was my homemade 50/50 alox/beeswax. The lube I switched to was again my own soap base. So now look at the data: Larry shot a different bullet, different lube (remember I started with LBT BLUE in the 6.5MS,but developed the Swede loads with my soap lube), different brass, different chamber, different bore and groove, different temperature, different elevation, different atmospheric pressure, different primer, different brand of powder, different buffer, and most of all a different chronograph placed at more likely at a different distance from the muzzle. That's an awful lot of differences Pat....don't you agree?

The velocities I posted were corrected to muzzle velocities (the computor program gives that information also) so the screen distance is not relevent except your velocities would be a few fps slower. As to the other differences. The 6.5 Swede is not the only rilfe you make claims of high velocity with accuracy. You have stated numerous times and given numerous examples of many different rifles you do this with and with a multiple of different cast bullets, designs, lubes and powders along with home made aluminum GCs. You also state you have always done this because you started out shooting cast bullets that way. So why should my different rifle be different? If you can do it, as uyou have claimed for years, then there should be no reason I can't doit with a different rifle. Is there?

Are you not going to send the rifle and test ammo?

If not the rifle then at least the test ammo would/shouldn't be that difficuult? I will pay shipping and return the brass. If necessary I will also pay you for the componants. I would think that 50 rounds is doable and would give 40 rounds to "season" the bore with your lube and 10 for the test?

Larry Gibson

I'm not sending you anything. You'll have to live with the fact you're a failure shooting the 6.5 Swede at HV and accuracy.

For your information I have done what I have said and like a fool I posted the target pictures only to be ridiculed with the likes of you and others that wouldn't except it because they couldn't do it. That's what has been the fight all along with the 6.5 ....other's not being able to do it and arguing to the point the threads got closed each and every time....much like what is starting to happen right now. You can't do it so you and others are starting the arguing again. Not too much was said when I was shooting the Lee 135 grain 7mm bullet out of my mannlicher SAKO carbine at 2640 and staying under 1 inch at 100 yards...and I did that without any fillers. I reckon the twist wasn't fast enough to raise any hackles thought.

To you I say shut up, go test in quiet, and when you finally can do it, come back and run your mouth then.

Joe

[StarMetal]

StarMetal

[B]Show me where I said you're not using reformed 06 cases. I'm pretty upset about this.

Now you are wanting to argue again. I shall not go there. You can reread the posts if you like.

I am tired of all this compalining and criticising once again before the test is done. I shall continue the test as started and use manleyjt's bullet also. I will use "the correct" filler when it arrives but I will also use the #47 to see if there is any potential there as I've already paid for it. If you send me the rifle i will test your loads in it. If you send the test ammo I will test them in my rifle.

Shall we just let the test continue?

Larry Gibson

You started it Larry and everyone saw it here in print. So I'm still waiting for you to show me. You are the one arguing because little Larry's shooting test weren't so spectacular.

Read my other post about shutting up and go testing.

Joe

[swheeler]

"So I am asking you just that Joe, why not send me 10 of your 6.5 Swede cartridges plus however many foulers you think I will need to "season" the barrel. I am sure one of my rilfes will chamber them and I can attach a strain gauge to any of them. I will gladly pay for the shipping both ways (I'll return the cartridge cases). That way I can test the pressure, the velocity and the accuracy of your loads. If you think that won't work in my rifle then I'll make arrangements through an FFL and pay for your rifle to be shipped both ways. I can then attach the strain gauge to your rifle and make the tests. How about it?" by Larry Gibson

This sounds like a VERY good idea! What do you say Joe?

[45 2.1]

So why should my different rifle be different? If it is a real Swede and not your parts gun, it probably wouldn't be different. If you can do it, as you have claimed for years, then there should be no reason I can't do it with a different rifle. Is there? If your able and "that" is what we've been trying to establish so the test results will be accurate.

Are you not going to send the rifle and test ammo? Now why would he send you his rifle and ammo when you say there is no reason you can't do it?

[Pat I.]

And here I was just asking good faith questions trying to get good faith answers. Oh well you know what they say "the best offense is a good defense"..........although it makes more sense the other way around.

[felix]

Softer boolits help in this situation using fillers. The boolit expands the correct amount at the right "time" preventing any movement of trash between the boolit and case. It is not unusual to see a brass stretch ring at the boolit base when the neck clearance was zero for too long. Any longer and the case neck will blow off at best. At worse, the chamber/barrel cracks. ... felix

[StarMetal]

[QUOTE=Pat I.;775588]And here I was just asking good faith questions trying to get good faith answers. Oh well you know what they say "the best offense is a good defense"..........although it makes more sense the other way around.[/QUOT

Pat,

I answered your questions in good faith. I told you what I think the differences are. There's a discrepancy over Larry's chamber in that MexSwede rifle. Even Dutch, who is probably the most knowledgeable person on Swedes on the forum has raised an eyebrow in question.

Ask Felix is lube can change your velocity to a measurable degree.

I also sent you that Hodgdon data on loading jacketed 6.5 Grendel with H4198 in good faith. Did I get an acknowledgment? No. Where's your good faith?

Joe

[felix]

Let's not get too hard on Larry. Memory failure increases with age for most folks, especially those who have had a demanding job requiring such mental acuity for 40 or more years. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Let's not get too hard on Larry. Memory failure increases with age for most folks, especially those who have had a demanding job requiring such mental acuity for 40 or more years. ... felix

In the same point Felix maybe Larry should stop lying about things. Am I suppose to just sit back and take the dung he throws at me.

He got the loading procedure, why is he arguing? All were told by 45 2.1 that once you get the procedure you may not find that sweet spot.

I have a large heart Felix, but there is no room in it for Judas's.

Joe

[swheeler]

"Well Scot, not all posters even post velocities. Strain gauges are pretty good. Some pressure reading are better then none at all. I'll have to admit Larry's Oehler chrono is the Lexus of chronographs.

I'm tired of being negative."

Joe

Larry is offering you a way to get that information that will be more accurate than obtaining it from a DIFFERENT rifle! You will get pressure trace from YOUR RIFLE with your load, what more could you ask for? At the same time he can do accuracy testing and give BC for bullet, all GOOD things. Carry on