Milk Jug 300 Yard 6.5 Swede

[felix]

Joe, it stops when everyone understands what makes a gun shoot. Until then, any bragging must be substantiated. Best to never brag which eliminates the need to pass the buck. ... felix

[robertbank]

My God, someone pm's Larry and wants me to sent him my ammo. When is it all going to stop?

Joe

Ummm. From the comments regarding Larry's attempt at testing, why not? Joe why not send Larry 10 cartridges so he can run his tests with your ammo. I know rifles vary but even if he shoots five inch groups at 100 yards it will be better than what he has achieved so far. You would get data on pressure and he would have a chance to compare his ammo results to yours in his rifle (s). That would end answer any questions anyone has about the sucess of your loading for the Swede.

Take Care

Bob
ps My head still hasn't got out of my search for "the load" for my Longbranch so any Swede project may be waiting for me at St. Peter's Gate if I make it that far.

[45 2.1]

I do not have the Cruise or KURTZ moulds. Since you have several Swedes, I suggest you buy them so you will have proven correctly fitted molds for those rifles. I imagine BRP would sell you these if you asked. I will gladly test them if you would be so kind as to send some. Joe has them all now. However, Joe is making claims that he does it with many different cast bullets including those with bore riding noses. Thats correct, and all of them were designed for the military 6.5mms by me so they would fit. Is there a particular reason that 266455 won't suffice? I've seen the dimension results from another of your molds used in some tests. Lightening may indeed stick twice in this instance as your particular mold doesn't seem to cast large enough for a typical Swede throat. No one has your individual mold, but many people have the Kurtz and cruise missle molds.


You can rest assured that at the end of the tests I will either have done it or not have done it. Well Duh, quite an answer there Guy. I am posting all the facts good or bad without adornment or mystery. So you say.... I could post the 4 to 12" groups but what would you then say? That you haven't done the proper preparation of course. I took Joe awhile to catch on. How long will it take you? Probably not to post them.

Thank you for that bit of useful information. If you had read the other posts, you might have deduced that wasn't for you, BUT you didn't......................

[45 2.1]

Joe, it stops when everyone understands what makes a gun shoot. Until then, any bragging must be substantiated. Best to never brag which eliminates the need to pass the buck. ... felix

Not very many understand how to make a gun shoot excellent groups. He already posted groups...........excellent groups at high velocity BTW..........groups that were thought impossible by the majority here............ perhaps that wasn't good enough to substantiate the methodology in your opinion? Will anything you or anybody else posts be good enough then? Do you have to see it with your own eyes to believe it (be carefull how you answer as some things have eternal consequences as you know)?

[StarMetal]

Joe, it stops when everyone understands what makes a gun shoot. Until then, any bragging must be substantiated. Best to never brag which eliminates the need to pass the buck. ... felix

Felix,

Can't a fellow just post shooting milk jug full of water and commenting how impressed he was how hard that cast bullet hit it? It wasn't referring one iota to the talent or skill needed to do that. Shucks me, 44man, 45 2.1 and a whole host of others can do it with a handgun.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Ummm. From the comments regarding Larry's attempt at testing, why not? Joe why not send Larry 10 cartridges so he can run his tests with your ammo. I know rifles vary but even if he shoots five inch groups at 100 yards it will be better than what he has achieved so far. You would get data on pressure and he would have a chance to compare his ammo results to yours in his rifle (s). That would end answer any questions anyone has about the sucess of your loading for the Swede.

Take Care

Bob
ps My head still hasn't got out of my search for "the load" for my Longbranch so any Swede project may be waiting for me at St. Peter's Gate if I make it that far.

Bob,

First..get yourself a Swede and get out there and play with it. Life's too short and you know you'd love it. I put off owning a Swede way too long and now am sorry I didn't buy one 25 years ago.

If Larry would just settle down and go over all this again and and buy the correct filler and use the correct barrel that will fit the dimensions of the bullets and casings here...and with lots of shooting...he'll get it.

45 2.1 told me long ago and more then once that "we could tell them exactly how to do it and most won't be able to, a very few may get it". Let me tell you I had to pry info out of 45 2.1 like using a crowbar on a rusty spike. His point was to make me think, to figure it out. When you learn something that way you understand it. If I sent Larry some loads and he shoots a bug hole, what has he learned at the subject at hand?

Remember...buy a Swede I know where some nice ones are.

Joe

[Pat I.]

Can't we just wait and see how this plays out before throwing in the towel or shipping rifles? It seems like Larry is doing everything in his power to conduct the tests fairly and following direction to the best of his ability,. He's also said that he's not finished and is willing to listen to advise if he's not doing something right, what else can you ask for. I like the way he's running the test and his willingness to share the defeats along with the successes. How else can anyone follow what's being done? This mess has been going on for years and finally everyone is willing to share some information, don't start the old arguments again and spoil it.

I'm keeping an open mind and shut mouth until I see more testing.

[robertbank]

If I sent Larry some loads and he shoots a bug hole, what has he learned at the subject at hand?

Remember...buy a Swede I know where some nice ones are.

Joe

Well he would have a benchmark set for himself for sure, you would have some interesting pressure data and all the doubting Thomas's out there would have to eat crow.

As for the Swede I am afraid it is right after I solve the #4 Rifle, then my GD Jungle Carbine (You wouldn't believe the problems I have with that one and I have a K 31 sitting in the safe asking when am I next. Now if you want to discuss an accurate rifle the K 31 is it. I only wish I had my 20 year old eyes in my head to do the open sights justice. There is a $175 cure though and I intend to buy a scope for the gun later this spring. Then I will start looking for a Swede. You see the odd one come up for sale up here and they go for not a bad price. When I am ready to let the Queen breath I'll give you a shout and get the dope on what to look for in a Swede.

Take Care

Bob

[felix]

Bob (45/2.1), like you say, most folks here don't want to take risks they feel are beyond their safety limits. These same people have their safety limits established by other folks thought to be experts by them. Therefore, your by-line is most appropriate here, and I will take your present warning to NOT lay down a blow-by-blow description for reloading a particular gun. ... felix

[alamogunr]

Remember...buy a Swede I know where some nice ones are.

Joe

Where?

[StarMetal]

Where?

Pm coming your way.

Joe

[Dutchman]

Ok Dutch - I can't let you get by with that photo without an explanation.

I'm talking about what looks like a brazed-in chamber. There's got to be a good story about that one and I'm sure there are a few others besides me that would like to know - Inquiring minds and all that. Must have been rebored/rifled after the brazed in chamber was done.

http://dutchman.rebooty.com/1895Chile.html

[Dutchman]

I thought you would have understood the vernacular of firearms terminology.

And I would've thought you would accept my concerns in the spirit they were offered.

I have also measured the headspace of numerous M96s and find them to vary greatly as was the practice with Mausers of that period. Apparently the headspace of the M38 was held to much tigher specifications when they rebarreled the M96 actions into that M38 style of rifle.

In 1948 the Swedish military changed headspace protocol. This is why there "seems" to be so much varying. Not really. When you're not aware of these two different standards you could assume much in error. The military gauges and translated instructions on my website are the 1948 version.

Many/most of the m/96 converted did not receive new barrels. So the headspacing wouldn't have been any different. Some rifles did get new barrels, and many of those new barrels were Husqvarna m/38 barrels with m/38 rear sights already installed. But those are way in the minority of conversions.

As I noted the test is just beginning. Perhaps it would be best if we all waited for the tests to be completed and I've made a conclusion be fore we criticis or make such judgements as "maybe something, maybe nothing". Otherwise you've just got the cart before the horse.

Like I said, too bad you couldn't accept what was offered in the spirit it was offered. I'll not make that mistake again.

Dutch

[swheeler]

Wow I like that stock, simply amazing! http://dutchman.rebooty.com/1895Chile.html

[PAT303]

Can't we just wait and see how this plays out before throwing in the towel or shipping rifles? It seems like Larry is doing everything in his power to conduct the tests fairly and following direction to the best of his ability,. He's also said that he's not finished and is willing to listen to advise if he's not doing something right, what else can you ask for. I like the way he's running the test and his willingness to share the defeats along with the successes. How else can anyone follow what's being done? This mess has been going on for years and finally everyone is willing to share some information, don't start the old arguments again and spoil it.

I'm keeping an open mind and shut mouth until I see more testing.

I have to agree,the rest of us ''mortals'' have just started to get our heads around what is needed to shoot better groups and we are getting stepped on before we even get a decent go.This thread is 17 pages long,16 without getting offensive,lets keep it that way. Pat

[geargnasher]

Bob (45/2.1), like you say, most folks here don't want to take risks they feel are beyond their safety limits. These same people have their safety limits established by other folks thought to be experts by them. Therefore, your by-line is most appropriate here, and I will take your present warning to NOT lay down a blow-by-blow description for reloading a particular gun. ... felix

Felix, I agree with 45 2.1 also on this, but up until now there wasn't anyone competent, equipped, knowledgeable, or willing enough to undertake some "amateur" internal ballistic measurements and share the results which could establish some safety limits. I'm hoping that Larry's tests gan give some of that "UNDERSTANDING" to this issue so the rest of us can add a measure of safety to our own experimentation.

For example, I want to know some details about why Joe shoots 31 grains of AA4350 and gets 2200 fps and itty, bitty groups and Larry shoots the same load with different brass, a more free-flowing filler, and gets 1965 and gets minute of 5-gallon bucket. Joe said his method "is a pressure raiser, for sure" and he pointed out more than once how he is getting way over book velocities for a given charge of powder. That's the point many of us began to figure out what they were doing, and no doubt it's dangerous if you don't know what you're doing. But who does with this stuff? Many of us here are trying to figure out safe ways to approach this, trying to understand what's going on so we can manage the monster safely without having to strap our test rifles to the bench under a flak vest and pull the trigger with a 20' string. (although that would probably be a really good idea in some cases).

Gear

[StarMetal]

Felix, I agree with 45 2.1 also on this, but up until now there wasn't anyone competent, equipped, knowledgeable, or willing enough to undertake some "amateur" internal ballistic measurements and share the results which could establish some safety limits. I'm hoping that Larry's tests gan give some of that "UNDERSTANDING" to this issue so the rest of us can add a measure of safety to our own experimentation.

For example, I want to know some details about why Joe shoots 31 grains of AA4350 and gets 2200 fps and itty, bitty groups and Larry shoots the same load with different brass, a more free-flowing filler, and gets 1965 and gets minute of 5-gallon bucket. Joe said his method "is a pressure raiser, for sure" and he pointed out more than once how he is getting way over book velocities for a given charge of powder. That's the point many of us began to figure out what they were doing, and no doubt it's dangerous if you don't know what you're doing. But who does with this stuff? Many of us here are trying to figure out safe ways to approach this, trying to understand what's going on so we can manage the monster safely without having to strap our test rifles to the bench under a flak vest and pull the trigger with a 20' string. (although that would probably be a really good idea in some cases).

Gear

I can tell you I wouldn't have shot some of the load Larry shot with the 4350 as high as they were. Luckily he had the wrong filler which didn't raise the pressure as much as the right stuff. Knowing I had the wrong buffer, which he did, I'd pulled the loads, remelted the bullets, re use the primers, and if you know how (as I do) salvage the powder even if it does have the filler on top of it.

One thing I was thinking I believe Larry did his testing and it was 40 degrees. My load development was done in much much hotter temperatures. That will make a noticeable difference.

Joe

[45 2.1]

For example, I want to know some details about why Joe shoots 31 grains of AA4350 and gets 2200 fps and itty, bitty groups and Larry shoots the same load with different brass, a more free-flowing filler wrong filler which acts differently, review post #205 on page 11 for reference, and gets 1965 and gets minute of 5-gallon bucket. Its all in knowing how to do it right. Joe said his method "is a pressure raiser, for sure" You can hear the difference for a very small powder change when you're at the right place. and he pointed out more than once how he is getting way over book velocities for a given charge of powder. That's the point many of us began to figure out what they were doing, and no doubt it's dangerous if you don't know what you're doing. The dangerous part is an under or overload with the powder of choice. Determining what the proper range is takes some experience. But who does with this stuff? Several very private people who won't discuss their tests except with like minded individuals who avoid established groups and the internet sites like a plague. Many of us here are trying to figure out safe ways to approach this, trying to understand what's going on so we can manage the monster safely without having to strap our test rifles to the bench under a flak vest and pull the trigger with a 20' string. (although that would probably be a really good idea in some cases). Joe can be quite bothersome at times ........... during the entire learning how to do this he contacted me a lot....told me what he did with what and showed me group pictures, then wanted to know what to do next. Most of the time he didn't follow directions or did it his own way (thats what Larry is doing now). After wearing down some and not getting results, he actually started following directions correctly and did what he was told to do...........then he got some nice results which he posted.

[scrapcan]

Larry, Bob and Joe,

Ok from reading it sounds like a different boolit and maybe reformed military cases would help Larry.

Larry if you want some lake city 06 brass and a loaner mould six cavity swede mould give me a holler. The mould is the the group buy mould that garandrus ran. For the sake of testing I would send the mould your way as a loaner.

[felix]

Pat-I, you know the general rule about fillers in that they cannot be allowed to result in a plug which would provide significant resistance on their own merits. Ideally you would need a plastic that would melt (flow) at the exact moment of "perfect" pressure, which depends upon the obvious mechanical factors, such as neck angle and boolit inertia taken together. ... felix