Direction of wrap...

[montana_charlie]

This ensures a way to have the patch 'tightened' as it travels down the bore.

Your bullets are wrapped CCW. Which way does your rifling turn?
CM

[RMulhern]

Charlie

Call it what you will but by 'tightened'.....I MEAN that the outside angle of the patch is 'tightened' by being held in place by the direction of rotation! The DOR is right hand! I'm not worried about the under-lying wraps because after wet wrapping I can assure you they're tight but....I don't want the exterior angle to be folded back! Just my own little personal quirk!!

[Woodtroll]

Charlie,

Photographic proof beats conjecture any day, and I appreciate you posting these pictures. I guess I can't shoot well enough to tell the difference, or maybe for some reason my gun and loads don't react the same way, but I honestly cannot tell the difference. I do sometimes get flyers that are wider than expected, though not very often; perhaps it may be due to intemittent wrinkling (?). Now that I've found a decent combination, I will give CCW wrapping a try and see if that eliminates the flyers. I had thought it was just me, but you never know...

I hope you did not take my input as argumentative. I was just throwing out my logic behind why I thought the patch would tighten CW, to see if it made sense to anyone else. The other part of the question, though, is what happens after the bullet has fully entered the bore, and then the gas is driving the bullet and torquing the patch; perhaps then it makes a difference?

Always so much to learn, especially if like a child you want to know, "Why?".

Thanks, y'all!
Regan

[montana_charlie]

The DOR is right hand!

A few of your bullets in the wooden block show the seam clearly enough to know which direction you are wrapping.
Since you are loading for a barrel with a right hand twist, you are following the same practice that I have been promoting in this thread.

Your method, added to my photos, reinforces my theory enough to keep me convinced...until some other quirk jumps into my fickle brain.

I hope you did not take my input as argumentative.

Well...maybe I did, and maybe I didn't.
But, you'll hav'ta work harder than that ta make me mad...
...Pilgrim.

CM

[303Guy]

Some confusion is arising in my mind. Not hard to achieve but .....

This is a right hand rifling direction, errr... right? OK, no question, it is a right hand twist. My Lee Enfield has a L/H twist, again no question.

I wrap in the direction shown by RMulhern - for my L/H twist Brit! See my confusion?

R/H twist.

I would have called the direction of wrap L/H or counter-clockwise - clockwise being R/H.


This is my L/H wrapped 25-303 for a L/H twist rifling.



I am rolling the casting in the opposite direction to what the rifling will do so that the wrap trailing edge will be in the direction the rifling drives the boolit.

What am I missing here?

[Nrut]

The boolit in the photo below is being wrapped CW, looking at from the base.. Yes?
I look down my bore from the breech end and I see that the twist is CW... OK?
So I wrap my boolit just like the one in the photo and when the boolit travels down the bore the patch "tightens" if that is possible...
Also the outside seam of the patch is the "trailing edge"..

How simple is that ?



Easy rule: Patch your boolit in the same direction as your twist "if" you think that is important to accuracy and the only way to find out if it is important is to test it..

[Nrut]

Your bullets are wrapped CCW. Which way does your rifling turn?
CM

montana_charlie
Looking from the base RMulhren is wrapping his boolit clockwise not CCW... Correct?

[rhead]

Until you try both in your rifle with you wrapping them using your paper you will be guessing and still will not know.

M C is right in most of the cases where it makes any difference. I lack sufficient data to say a percentage but would suppose (from my own experience) that it would be well over half. I can also state that there are some exceptions.

[montana_charlie]

montana_charlie
Looking from the base RMulhren is wrapping his boolit clockwise not CCW... Correct?

Rick's bullet rolls clockwise as it moves up the patch...so the patch is wound on in a counterclockwise spiral, when viewed from the base.
After twenty bullets are patched and dried, the bullets are motionless. So, the bullets are neither CW nor CCW. They're just 'round'.

But the patches (even though motionless) still have a counterclockwise spiral...so they are CCW patches.

Since his bullet will spin clockwise when it is fired, the angled end of the patch will be trailing the rotation...not leading into it.

That statement gives me an idea.
Let's just say that when you are applying the patch, the bullet should roll along on the paper in the same direction the rifling will make it spin when fired.

That way, those among us who have grown up with digital timepieces...who have to resort to a dictionary to explain CW and CCW...can just monkey see - monkey do to get their patches on in the right direction.

That description will also result in a CW patch for the left twist rifle.

CM

[montana_charlie]

Some confusion is arising in my mind. Not hard to achieve but .....

This is a right hand rifling direction, errr... right? OK, no question, it is a right hand twist. My Lee Enfield has a L/H twist, again no question.

I wrap in the direction shown by RMulhern - for my L/H twist Brit! See my confusion?

R/H twist.

I would have called the direction of wrap L/H or counter-clockwise - clockwise being R/H.

You appear to understand CCW (LH) and CW (RH) adequately when referencing the direction of the paper wrap. If you will reverse the direction of wrapping your bullets (to accomodate a left twist barrel) your confusion will melt away like bullet lube on a hot sprueplate pivot...leaving a hard crust of solid fact.

On the other hand...
I started this thread to advertise the discovery of a cure for a problem. I thought the problem was caused by something else...and had no certain idea of what that 'something else' might be.
I reversed my wrap due to some logical thinking...not in an attempt to cure anything. The discovery was purely serendipitous.

So, keep one thing in mind, 303.
If you don't suffer from the disease...you don't really need the vaccine.

CM

[303Guy]

Thanks folks. The disease I suffer from is confusion!

Even moreso now that it's been 'cleared up'.

I do sometimes dry wrap so the possibility of unwrapping at throat entry is real (I've had it happen) so I gotta get the right (or left?) direction!

I'll work through it till I get my head clear.

[Nrut]

Thanks folks. The disease I suffer from is confusion!

Even moreso now that it's been 'cleared up'.

I do sometimes dry wrap so the possibility of unwrapping at throat entry is real (I've had it happen) so I gotta get the right (or left?) direction!

I'll work through it till I get my head clear.

If you want the outside seam of your patch to be the trailing edge of your boolit as it is traveling down your barrel that's all you need to know (plus twist direction).. I disagree with CM's description as to what is CW and CCW and twist direction but we are coming up with the same end result and that is what is important..

[montana_charlie]

I disagree with CM's description as to what is CW and CCW and twist direction but we are coming up with the same end result and that is what is important..

Well, if you don't want to fight it out, I'll just have to let you believe what you feel comfortable with.

I was out today chopping snow. The plan was to cut a 'bed' to set up my portable target stand so I can fire the group that Lead Pot asked for...and capture the bullets in the drift, as well.

Being in a spot where I don't usually punch tarhets, I had to establish the 100 yard distance. That means I got a chance to actually use my new rangefinder...and I really like the way it works.

Too damn cold today to mess with 'damp patches', but everything's set for the first decent day...

CM

[Woodtroll]

Well...maybe I did, and maybe I didn't.
But, you'll hav'ta work harder than that ta make me mad...
...Pilgrim.

CM

Well, at least I am glad I didn't make you mad!

I hope everyone here has a great New Year! Y'all take care,
Regan

[RMulhern]

montana_charlie
Looking from the base RMulhren is wrapping his boolit clockwise not CCW... Correct?

Nrut

Let's put it this way! When I apply a patch....the bullet..nose left side....is being rolled away from me or...in a CLOCK-WISE direction...however the patch is going on in a COUNTER-CLOCKWISE direction! My 'quirk' is....that I do this to have the trailing edge of the patch being rolled into the twist rather than away from whereby in my opinion....there is likely-hood that the trailing edge could be curled back thereby causing a kink within the patch!

[docone31]

I wrap the same way in my rollers.
With my smokeless rifles, it does not seem to matter what direction I wrap in.
I have left hand rifleing in my Smelly, I wrap for right hand, with my Mauser, I have right hand rifleing, I wrap right hand.
It is a toss up which fires the best, on what day.
Same powder charge also.

[303Guy]

...however the patch is going on in a COUNTER-CLOCKWISE direction!

I had finally figured this out! Yup, so I am in fact doing it correctly for my rifle for dry wrapping!

[montana_charlie]

Charlie if I didn't see the ring from your case mouth I would have said that you breach seated those bullets.
I blew the photo up to 600% and the alloy and everything looks very good.
Now shoot a group and post that.

Kurt

Here you go, Kurt.
I only had four, and lost one in the snow.

Wind was 15 to 20 from 10 o'clock, and it was chilly...uncomfortable to shoot in. So I probably hurried a bit, but I tried to hold steady enough to make a group.
It was fired at 100 yards.



This is the 1000 yd. target, scaled down for 100 yards.
The black is 4.4 inches wide.
I usually shoot with the wind coming from the opposite direction, and forgot I had all that right windage cranked on.
Would've been mad if I had fallen clear off the side of the target...

Oh, yeah! I had the target set in front of the snowbank to catch the bullets. They smacked into each other so bad, they aren't worth taking a picture...but the shanks look clean.
CM

[longbow]

303Guy:

I know why you are confused... your toilets flush in the wrong direction down there!

Yeah, I know that wasn't much help. True but not much help.

Longbow

[6.5 mike]

Montana charlie & RMulhen, i've been following this thread from the start & you have answered a question that I had. From time to time I would get flyers in my pp'ed groups that I couldn't account for with my hiwall & sharps. They were never really wild just out when it seemed the shot broke good. I'll have to try wrapping some the way your saying & see if this removes them, thanks for the info & a great post.
303 guy, driving on the wrong side of the road doesn't help either.