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Thread: Id Ideal Mold

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    Id Ideal Mold

    Hi: I'm a new member with a question, I came across an old mold, stamped on the side it reads IDEAL MIDDLEFIELD CONN. then there the # 38 with what appears to be a small star behind it, after that is what appears to be two one's connected by a line to make the letter capital H, under that is the name HARVEY and the #453.
    Any help would be appreciated, thanks BOB

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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    PAHoghunter,

    If the cavity has a narrow square bottom driving band and a kind of central peak in the base, your mold should be the casting version of the Jim Harvey Jugular bullet for the .38 Spl/.357 Magnum. You put a zinc washer in the narrow bottom band and cast pure lead into the cavity. The lead would flow through the washer into the peak in the base, locking the washer to the bullet. The zinc washer would scrape the lead out of the bore or lubricate it or something; anyway, allegedly no lubricant was necessary, and the effect of the pure lead at the usual blistering velocities claimed by designers in the '50's was supposed to be devastating. This design was more commonly swaged around the washer in a die set (believe it was C-H that supplied the dies and a press) but Lyman at the time was interested in keeping up with new developments and offered the molds as an alternative to those that didn't want to get into swaging.

    I have the .44 version of your mold, if that's what it is. Kind of a short semi-wadcutter. I heard somewhere that you could get the zinc washers from Corbin, but I also remember reading an essay by Dave Corbin on how this Harvey system didn't live up to its promise with most users. Haven't tried getting any washers and trying them, but someday I'll give them a try.

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy
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    ID mold

    That description pretty much describes my mold, sound like its a lot of work. Thanks for the information. BOB

  4. #4
    Boolit Master and Generous Donator
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    Bob, Dave:

    That sounds like a zinc washer base mould marketed by Jim Harvey under the "Prot-X-Bore" name; the "Jacketed Jugular" designs were cores for the half-jacket version - something like a very deep gas check. Lyman, Hensley and Gibbs and probably other mould makers made these for Harvey; I've seen them stamped with his name and "Lakeville, Conn." address, but Lyman, at least, also sold them direct on their own. As I understand it, they worked only if the washers were EXACTLY matched to groove diameter. It's an old idea and goes at least back to the Civil War and the "Williams" bore scraper bullets packaged one to every fifteen or so Minie' balls. But these, and some modern variants of the idea, used cupped washers that would spread out under pressure to fill the rifling grooves. They all relied on the fact that zinc is (a) quite a bit harder than lead, and (b) that lead doesn't bond to zinc, so once the bore has a "wash" of zinc, leading is largely prevented. Yes, it IS a lot of work to cast these.

    Bob: If you don't want to keep that mould, name a price and PM me. I'm interested in the odd-ball Lyman moulds.
    Doug
    Last edited by floodgate; 05-22-2006 at 01:21 AM.
    NOV SHMOZ KA POP?

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy
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    I have a couple of the "Jacketed Juglar" designs, but never knew anything about them, including the title. Do you know if they are designed to run through a sizer/luber after seating the cores? Or glued in or any other special treatment, other than seating them? I've not cast any yet, but will someday.

    Thank you

    Quote Originally Posted by floodgate
    the "Jacketed Jugular" designs were cores for the half-jacket version - something like a very deep gas check.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master and Generous Donator
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot_again
    I have a couple of the "Jacketed Juglar" designs, but never knew anything about them, including the title. Do you know if they are designed to run through a sizer/luber after seating the cores? Or glued in or any other special treatment, other than seating them? I've not cast any yet, but will someday.

    Thank you
    gutshot:

    No, I don't know how they were supposed to go together. I've been looking (UN-Paid Advt.!!!) for any literature on the Harvey / Lakeville Arms Co. designs (other than the brief and somewhat confusing paragraph in the 1958 First Edition Lyman "Handbook of Cast Bullets"), showing what-all they offered, how they were to be used, etc., etc. For example, I have a Lyman / Ideal 4-cavity mould numbered 312521 (in the "custom" xxx5xx cherry number range they used for these, but un-mentioned in any Lyman literature I have - and I have a LOT!),stamped with the "Harvey / PROT-X-BORE" copyright logo, which casts what must be .38 RN cores for a FULL-jacket (not HALF-jacket) bullet; but WHY RN, and why a special .38 core when Lyman already had the adjustable single-cavity .38 core moulds in stock? (Illus. below.)

    Any Harvey experts out there?

    floodgate:

    PS: Jim Harvey was last seen sometime in the '60's, headed into the brush in Alaska with his .44 Magnum, in search of a bear. It is presumed he found one! Or vice-versa!! There's a scene in one of Shakespeare's plays that closes with the stage direction: "Exit, pursued by bear." Hmmm....
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    Last edited by floodgate; 05-22-2006 at 07:39 PM.
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  7. #7
    Boolit Master

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    Eek, just saw this. Is my face red! Of course, you are right, Floodgate, the zinc washer bullet was the Pro-Tex-Bore and the partial jacketed ones were Jugulars. Don't know if my memory is getting worse or if I still remember everything, only it's all getting mixed together like clothes in the washer.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master Glen's Avatar
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    Floodgate -- there is a write-up on the Harvey bullet in the 18th edition of Handloader's Digest (2003). There are a few mistakes in the piece, but it is for the most part a pretty good summary of the topic.
    Glen

  9. #9
    Boolit Master At Heavens Range 2008 Swagerman's Avatar
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    Zinc washers are still available from C-H 4-D .com ask Dave about them.


    Jim

  10. #10
    Boolit Master and Generous Donator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glen
    Floodgate -- there is a write-up on the Harvey bullet in the 18th edition of Handloader's Digest (2003). There are a few mistakes in the piece, but it is for the most part a pretty good summary of the topic.
    Glen:

    I've got that one and read it when it came out; but I want more complete info and - especially - any original Harvey literature, catalogs, brochures, instructions, etc. He did a lot of experimenting. The Lyman 1st and 2nd Edition Cast Bullet books have quite a bit of info, but it is not complete, and some is downright contradictory. Like, they list - in diffeent places - zinc-washer bullets #355500 and #358500 that are different bullets, with different weights, despite having the same cherry number. I'd be interested in any of the Harvey / Lyman moulds anyone here has and doesn't use, and is willing to part with; but right now, I'm more interested in any original Harvey "paper".

    Doug
    Last edited by floodgate; 06-02-2006 at 02:37 PM.
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check