Difference in killing power

[45&30-30]

I have been wondering about killing power and bullet design since reading some of the threads in this section recently. If we could let's remove alloy, velocity and weight from the discussion and focus on bullet shape only. The bullets main purpose is for hunting, deer and elk. What will kill better? Would there be much of a difference in those listed? Have you found something different than conventional wisdom? i.e. Big meplat, better killer? Again, main point being bullet design. Real world first hand knowledge if we could. I placed a few Lee bullet design pictures in because they were easy to load and added a few bullet types without pictures assuming most would know what I was talking about. Add what you want to the list for discussion.

In 45, 250 grain bullets:

Keith style bullet (RCBS or Lyman)
No picture.

Lee 452-252-SWC


Lee 452-255-RF


In 308 150 to 180 grain bullet: (Reminder, main emphasis on bullet design)

RCBS 150/180
No picture

Lyman 311440
No picture

Ranch Dog 311-165
No picture

Lee C309-150-F


Lee C309-160-R


Lee C309-170-F


Lee C309-180-R

[MT Gianni]

I am not interested in kills rather in failures. What have you shot game with and lost it, or required a long tracking session follow up to find a boolit failure?

[dualsport]

The only deer I ever shot and lost was with a Speer MagTip fired from a Ruger 77 7x57 Mauser. Somebody else got it, I saw it on the back of a burro later that day. Never again.

[jhalcott]

I have noticed that FLAT nosed bullets seem to leave larger, longer wound channels than ROUND nose bullets. Caliber doesn't matter much. A round nose .44 .240 grain will drive thru a deer as well as a .308 180 grainer. The flat nose just SEEMS to deliver more shock to the animal. This effect is seen on deer ,ground hogs and water bottles out beyond 100 yards. Given the choice, I'll use a FN design for deer hunting or any game I intend to eat. Varmints will be shot with what ever I have on hand! I showed this "terminal affect" to a friend or 2. I used the exact same load in a gun. The first shot was with a round nosed bullet. The 2nd was the SAME load ,but with a bullet Flat nosed by me. At 100 yards a gallon jug of water barely moved when hit with the RN. You could see the water leaking out thru the scope so it WAS hit. The 2nd shot ,FNed by hand, would explode the jug violently. The fn would also drive a bale of wet news paperoff the table , while the RN would merely pass thru.

[hicard]

In the 30 cal I would go with either the Lyman 311041 173 GR FPGC or the RCBS 180 GR FPGC. Your 1st two pictured 45 cal handgun choices look good to me.

[TDC]

45&30-30

There are so many variables that can contribute to a dependable "kill" that it boggles the mind.

I, like many others, can quickly tell how truly experienced posters are on this subject by the way they often address this issue. So many people attempt to "sell" others on what they use based on their experiences with one or two hunting experiences. One or two "kills" are certainly worthy of an opinion but are far from providing a definitive and reliable answer to that age old question - "what will kill them dead in their tracks - every time?"..

I've killed 5 large bull elk and 4 Black Bear and been present when many more have been shot. I've killed more deer than I can recall over the years as well as many other predators and game animals of all type. All I can say is they all reacted so differently after being shot that no one with accuracy can predict a consistent result or reaction. Do I think I'm an expert? -- heck no!! Do I think I ever will be? Heck no!!

Since you limit this thread to boolit shape only you eliminate 1000 other variables that simply must be added to the equation. There ain't no such thing a boolit design alone that kills them deader.

The two issues I often read about that I find not supportable, at least for me, are the concept a cast boolit must make both an entry and an exit wound. The idea is that two holes will allow the animal to bleed out quicker. That's true, but only if the animal isn't on a flat out run, heavily charged with adrenalin, and its slipping skin doesn't cover those wounds, especially on thick skinned game like elk and bear. Of course the animal will bleed out internally, but it negates the idea an entry and exit wound must be considered the "ideal".

I, on the other hand, want my boolits to expend all their energy inside the animal if they can. That brings me to the second issue that, for me at least, I've found to be another myth... what some people claim is the ineffectiveness of cast hollow points..

I've used cast hollow points almost exclusively and can accurately say they have given me well over 60% "dead on their feet" kills on big, thick skinned game. I've used .41 Mags for deer and coyote sized predators and .44 Mags for bear and elk for more years than I like to remember, all with custom hollow point cast boolits with the proper alloys and proper placement.

This year I'm replacing my great Mod. 29-2 S&W 44 mag with a S&W 500 for elk and larger game. Many of us who shoot 50 cal are about to receive a new Cramer type mould that will be capable of providing 4 different hollow point cavity sizes for a wide range of versatility to use with different game. It will be the ideal bullet diameter for experimentation with various HP sizes shot at higher velocity and be able to determine how they perform using different alloys.

One concept for hunting with cast boolits I know you can always believe in, for rifle or handguns, is.... bigger is always better...

JMHO

[45&30-30]

I like where this has gone and appreciate the posts and personal experiences that were added. MT Gianni brings up a good point and maybe the way this should be looked at.

[BoolitBill]

I agree with TDC that bigger is always better, but even then the tenacity of some game will amaze you. I have shot only two deer with cast boolits so far. One doe was shot through both lungs and ran about one hundred yards before lying down. I tracked her blood trail and walked up on her. She jumped up and began to cross a small creek, I had to shoot her again to drop her. The second one was a small buck shot head on in the chest. He dropped like a rock. When gutting him I found the boolit had angled up into his spine. Both were 405 grain 45-70 boolits. I am glad to have shot the doe first as it taught me not to take anything for granted and to keep my tracking skills sharp. If I had shot the buck first I would have believed that my 45-70 was some magic death ray. That doe taught me that even though I think a big bullet is a great hunting tool, She wasn't that impressed with it.

[357maximum]

I KNOW any moderately meplated boolit of SWC, RNFP, or TCFP design with proper PLACEMENT will work alot better than a THEORETICALLY SUPERIOR design in the wrong spot.

I have kilt no large game with any exact boolits you list. I have killed all my deer with either cast SWC, RNFP,TCFP or hollowpint versions of same. They all worked so similar I could see no difference. The cast HP's when pushed too hard have been my only "dissapointment". It had nothing to do with how well it killed. It was the damage inflicted to the meat on the shoulder that I deemed it a "failure"

Those lee "R" noses in the rifle pics would give me severe hesitation therefore I will likely never use one. It is my opinion that it is impossible to further the discussion of those lee roundnosed boolits without talking about the alloy and the velocity if they were going to be used for hunting large game. So I have nothing further to add on them.

[1Shirt]

Good thread Boolitbill, tend to agree with it. Regardless of all other factors, am a firm believer in anchor shots on deer or anything bigger. For me, and I don't take running shots, I want to take a shoulder shot, even if there is some meat loss. In cast, I agree that either wide flat nose or wide flat nose HP's are potentialy the best killers. Biggest I have ever taken weight wise was about a 350 lb Russian Bore with 405 gr Ohas with softened nose, in 45-70, over 26 gr of 2400. Blt did not exit, but after recoil, I had 4 legs in the air and dead hog. Round nose and spire pt blts are fine for target, but are not the ticket for game with cast. I would also not try a shot with cast in anything for a game animal at much over 100 yds, and would have preferance to have it 50 yds or less. Just my thoughts.
1Shirt!

[Lead Fred]

Garrett has a few good articles here

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/Penetration.htm

I use the 150f for the flat nose, in the lever

Was thinking of getting the 200 FN for the 06

[NHlever]

The only cast boolit failure I've had was on a porcupine. They are tough, and don't have much of a nervous system though they certainly can't compare to an elk, or boar. I shot one with a 38 Special RN at close range with good placement. He flinched a bit, and took a few steps, and started eating again though he was probably dead, or soon to be. I had to shoot him in the head to bring him down. That was also the last critter I have ever shot with a RN cast boolit. I have since shot quite a few critters with SWC, and full wadcutter boolits, and have had much better results. I haven't tried HP boolits. I've carried the WFN types, but so far haven't shot any game with them.

[runfiverun]

the lee 45-255 is similar to the lyman 452664 i use for deer hunting, it does fine. i don't like to track.

[outdoorfan]

The only cast boolit failure I've had was on a porcupine. They are tough, and don't have much of a nervous system though they certainly can't compare to an elk, or boar. I shot one with a 38 Special RN at close range with good placement. He flinched a bit, and took a few steps, and started eating again though he was probably dead, or soon to be. I had to shoot him in the head to bring him down. That was also the last critter I have ever shot with a RN cast boolit. I have since shot quite a few critters with SWC, and full wadcutter boolits, and have had much better results. I haven't tried HP boolits. I've carried the WFN types, but so far haven't shot any game with them.

I once opened fire on a porcupine (low in a tree) with my .44 and 240 grain xtp's at 1,500 fps. On the fifth shot it finally let go.

[scrockett]

45&30-30, my experiences with cast boolits have been on deer,small coastal blacktail and sierra foothill blacktail/larger. In my youth the task of filling grandparents & two old uncles tags fell to me, and being bloodthirsty in those years and with parents ranch on the coast and grandparents ranch in the foothills I got to see a little of what worked and what didn't. 31141 in the 30-30 was very effective with shoulder anchor shots, but made for long tracking with high farther back lung and rib hits. 358315 HP in single loaded 357 mag / 310 cadet martini was VERY effective on shoulder shots and pretty good with any lung hit, deer usually down within 10-50 yards. All boolits in those years were cast pretty soft, 16-1 & 20-1 and loads were with 2400 & 4895, thats all we had,seems like some good hunting land but no $$. What more could a kid ask for!!!

[45&30-30]

scrockett,

Thank you for sharing that information. If I read what you said correctly it seems you have considerable experience with the 308 sized cast bullet on deer. I am interested to know if the deer hit with the 31141 in the heart/lung area, what did you notice about the tissue damage to the lungs. Was there little damage radiating from the path of the bullet through the lungs or did you see the jellified blood and tissue common in high velocity rounds impacting that area? I would suspect the former, but don't know. On shoulder shots did you notice a lot of blood shot meat radiating from the wound channel or was there only localized damage around the bullets path?

Anyone who has any experience on this in similiar shaped cast bullets in 308 would be appreciated to. My reason for asking is I am curious to the amount of damage caused by these smaller diameter large meplat bullets in deer. I have read a few recent threads but in the spirit of what TDC said, a few examples aren't conclusive to a specific cast bullets effectiveness.

My only experience with cast on game is a 255K WWWD at 190 grains on a neck shot. The bullet entered broke the spine and as I remember destroyed everything in a 1 1/2 inch radius around the bullets path. I do not recall a lot of blood shot. The shot was 25 yards and velocity at muzzle was 1300fps. But this was a large caliber and meplat and is consistent with what everyone has said.

[scrockett]

45&30-30
From my remembrances of 50 years back most of the lung area hits were very clean healthy looking lung tissue with minimal to no gelling appearance like when I cleaned a deer shot with 300 savage or -06. My mom was a stickler for ABSOLUTELY NO WASTE and she was always happy when deer were killed with my "stove top bullets". Minimal bloodshot area on through shoulder shots, only bloodshot areas were usually at the entry under the skin for an area maybe 2-3 inches in diameter. Penetration was always very impressive, I remember one very large/ 200lbs+ sierra buck shot in late October, range about 25-30 yards facing me, hit low in left front point of shoulder/chest with 31141/& slide setting of 12 on old B&M measure with 2400, about 20 grs. bullet broke couple ribs on entry and left quarter size hole through liver and finally stopped against right rear hip joint, only bullet I can remember recovering and just slightly swelled out at the nose and back to front drive band. Buck was very sick, turned and ran down hill 80-100yds and hid in some brush/ layed down. I waited about 1/2 hour and followed slow and easy, he was in his bed, raised head & shot him in neck from about 20 feet. Went back to grandparents house after field dressing and got horse to drag him out of that canyon and back to house. Killed two big feral hogs that winter during Christmas vacation with same load, shoulder shots on both with small entry and dime to quarter size exit,both hogs folded within 50 yds. Only bleeding I remember was almost always on exit wound with very little bleeding if deer were hit very high. A really good rat terrier always made finding them easy, little dog raised me and taught me to hunt it seemed.

[45&30-30]

scrockett, great information, superbly presented. Thank you.

[pls1911]

Either of the .45 bullets will do fine, as they have for me on big tough pigs, within reasonable range..(<50 yards, shoulder shot)
Any of the FN choices will do better at any range, I prefer the ranch dog for the meplat...it simply slaps poop out of whatever it touches. But having said that, I've had near equal results from the RCBS 180 and the Lyman 173 as well...
Shoulder shot drops 'em in their tracks every time with any bullet mentioned.
Do your part, place the bullet where it should be, and you'll be very pleased.

[FWAddit]

I'll address MT Gianni's question about what doesn't work: pointed bullets

I keep a gun handy at the back door to rid the garden of rabbits that come to defoliate my peas. For a while I used a bolt action .30-30 shooting Lyman 311334 at about 1600 fps. The bullet weighs about 190 grains and has a sharp point. Rabbits ran farther after being hit through the lungs by it than by a .22 long rifle--usually 20 yards or more. The pointed bullets just sneaked through the body, prying flesh and blood vessels aside instead of delivering a shock to the system.

In contrast, 158-gr. semi-wadcutters from my .35 Remington at about the same speed just devastate rabbits.