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Thread: 41 magnum vs 10 mm auto

  1. #81
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    There is no cylinder gap in the semi-auto so let's just go where the other post took us - and it was wrong. Put the .357 in a Coonan and you get even more juice as there is no cylinder gap. Look, the 10mm is a fine choice, let's just keep it real. The .357 has more energy, better sectional density, and better penetration. More gun.
    Last edited by jmort; 10-01-2012 at 12:48 AM.

  2. #82
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    The original post posed the question about the ballistics of a 10mm versus a 41 magnum. That is easily answered. And has been. . .

    He did not ask about gun weights he asked about ballistics for caliber. But there is NOTHING specifically about sight radius, relative weight, number of rounds, or speed of employment. Why? BECASE HE GOES ON TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT HE IS REFERRING TO BOTH ROUNDS BEING FIRED FROM A REVOLVER. His post title must be read to mean "the 10mm auto" as the 10mm semi-automatic ROUND.

    "From a practical point of view, what is the primary difference, if any, between the ballistic performance of a 41 Magnum and a 10mm revolver? Obviously the 10mm would have to use moon clips and would fire a slightly smaller diameter bullet but... Beyond that is there any significant difference between these two?"

    Hell, I even pointed out the RH and the FA353 were lowly .357 magnums that would easily surpass the 10mm ballistics. Larger bullet, larger meplat, better SD. Load the strongest 10mm pistol up to its top level; and then chop the barrels and do the same with those two. No contest.

    I was subsequently informed of a fellow who has put well over 1k 255 gr. bullets downrange from his RH. The FA353 is even more of a hammer. But these are not run-of-the-mill .357s. They are EXCEEDINGLY well built revolvers. and easily able to stand far greater pressures. I believe Taffin stated that the FA353 would outrun the cartridge. Ipse dixit is not my thing but in this case believe it.
    Last edited by Gibson; 10-01-2012 at 01:28 AM.

  3. #83
    Boolit Master Any Cal.'s Avatar
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    Good point... so what barrel length revo, and what is it going to be used for? Lots of reasons to run cheaper pistol rounds over a nearly obselete mid bore magnum...


  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Any Cal. View Post
    Good point... so what barrel length revo, and what is it going to be used for? Lots of reasons to run cheaper pistol rounds over a nearly obselete mid bore magnum...

    No idea, amigo. Not my thread

    I have a Beretta 92FS Centurion (light rail; 20 round mec-gar), A CZ83, a Colt MK IV Series 70 Government Model .45 ACP, and a Glock G20SF 10mm. Not too many pistols (writ small). . .

    But. . .

    I load up the BFR 500 mag and stroll my purview with "the calm confidence of a Christian [holding] four aces".

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmortimer View Post
    "The auto has proven itself vastly more reliable than the lightweight auto."

    Good thing those Glocks never Kaboom and an FTF will be "vastly" less of a problem in a semi-auto. Seriously though, where you are 700 to 750 ft lbs of energy should be enough.
    I meant to type "lightweight revolver" but you quoted me before I went back and fixed my mistake.

    I can only comment on MY G20 and MY 329PD. My Glock hasn't broken yet but my revolver was completely unreliable. I realize that's an anomaly but it's my experience.
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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Any Cal. View Post
    4" Mtn gun is similar size to 6" G20, barrel length is measured differently so can not be compared straight across. 20 also weighs1/2lb or so less.
    Yep, that's what I was getting at. Practical limitations on what you can carry are based on the actual size of the gun. If you want to quote ballistics from a 4" Mtn Gun, my 6" G20 will push a 180gr cast a bit over that 1400fps quoted for the 357; and that's actual chronograph numbers, not advertising. It will also do it with less recoil and less muzzle blast. Seems like an advantage to me?

    Not to mention, none of my 357's ever gave me advertised velocity numbers, they were all a good bit slower.

    If you look at small guns (not the point of the thread, I know), the 357 is about equal to the 40 S&W. A good comparison is my Kahr CW40 and SP101 2-1/4". Both guns are very close to the same size. With book max loads, the SP101 pushes a 158gr cast to 1100 fps. The CW40 pushes a 165gr to 1100 fps. My buddies 4" Model 65 adds a bit less than 200 fps to that number, putting it well behind the Glock 20 10mm, again in a similar sized package.
    Last edited by yondering; 10-02-2012 at 12:17 AM.

  7. #87
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    ^ And a 6" GP 100 will do even more and so on and so on. You 10mm guys are tough. BTW, I will take the Buffalo Bore numbers to the bank even over someone's "actual chronograph numbers." Revolvers have a cylinder gap and the semi-autos use "different/unfair" barrel lengths. Again, Put the .357 in a Coonan and it goes even faster. I was just responding to the often repeated myth that 4" revolvers can't keep up with the 10mm and that only in longer barrels will the .357 shine. It shines on and on. I would like to have a 10mm.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmortimer View Post
    I would like to have a 10mm.
    I would like to have a high capacity one that doesn't require that you spend $135 to buy an aftermarket barrel that lets you reuse your brass. I was very disappointed to discover that my new 20SF bulges brass with full power loads just as badly as my old one from the mid-90's does. I'm now going to have to spring for a Lone Wolf or Storm Lake barrel to get more than one firing out of a case. Of course, I suppose if a mad bear was clawing my face off I don't guess that would be high on my list of priorities, but my fear is that one of those bulging cases might just let go at the worst possible time.

    I actually do have a 10mm that fully supports cases, but it was made by Smith & Wesson and they don't sell them anymore. It's also steel-framed (heavy) and only holds nine rounds. I would love to see an M&P in 10mm on the 45 platform.
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  9. #89
    Boolit Master yondering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmortimer View Post
    I was just responding to the often repeated myth that 4" revolvers can't keep up with the 10mm
    How is that a myth? It may not be true in every case, but it certainly is in the guns I've measured, like I just said above. Claiming that the auto's barrel length is "unfair" is silly; I specifically compared the same size gun. Most 357's are revolvers, and most 10mm's are autos; I don't see how oddball stuff like the Coonan matters here?

    You say you'd rather believe advertised ballistics than actual chronograph numbers, and it sounds like you don't even have a 10mm; your comments don't sound very credible to me.

    Comparing a 4" 357 revolver to a service pistol sized 10mm and book maximum loads in both; the 10mm delivers more power, with less recoil and less muzzle blast. In everything I've shot, anyway. That doesn't mean the revolver isn't a good choice for some people, but the 10mm does have some clear advantages.

    To add a little more for discussion - and this is just a single sample, to be clear - the 4" Tracker my buddy owned in 41 Magnum was barely the ballistic equal of my Glock 20 and my 1911 (10mm's). All of these pushed the same 220gr hard cast bullet (sized down to .401" for the 10mm's) to just under 1200 fps. Yeah, the 41 should have been faster, but it wasn't, and that load was slightly over published data with H110. And, the 41 Magnum was heavier, roughly equal dimensions, and had a lot more recoil and blast, for exactly the same ballistics.

    What it boils down to, for me at least, is the 10mm vs 357 or 41 mag question is really about semi-auto vs revolver choice, not the cartridge itself. All can be argued to be close enough to not matter (unless you're talking long barreled revolvers), so it depends what kind of gun you want to carry.
    Last edited by yondering; 10-03-2012 at 01:20 AM.

  10. #90
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    I will say it again as it needs to sink in:
    No, sorry - book loads or not, I will stick with Buffalo Bore data.
    Since Buffalo Bore has proven to be accurate in their data I go by what they list:

    10mm 220 gr. Hard Cast - FN (1200 fps/ME 703 ft. lbs.)
    1. 1140 fps - Glock model 20 4.6 inch barrel
    2. 1175 fps - Colt Delta Elite 5 inch barrel
    3. 1201 fps - Para Ordinance 1911 with Nowlin 5 inch barrel

    10mm 180 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point (1,350fps/M.E. 728 ft. lbs.
    1. 1311 fps - Glock model 20 4.6 inch barrel
    2. 1337 fps - Colt Delta Elite 5 inch barrel
    3. 1351 fps - Para Ordinance 1911 with Nowlin 5 inch barrel

    Heavy 357 Magnum Ammo - 180 gr. Hard Cast LFN-GC (1,400fps/M.E. 783 ft. lbs.)
    4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun
    a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1375 fps
    5 inch S&W model 27
    a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast =1398 fps

    .357 more gun, more energy, better sectional density, better penetration with same length barrels and as you can see a shorter S&W MT. Gun with 4" barrel is more gun than the longer barrel 10mm.

  11. #91
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    Deleted.
    Last edited by Gibson; 10-03-2012 at 04:01 AM.

  12. #92
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    .22, .357 or 10mm (depending on platform preference) .44Mag. Pick the weight you are scared enough to carry, and then you will know which caliber you are taking. Hmmm, am I 20, 32, or 48oz scared? Or for the .500 guys, am I 5.2lbs of scared to go out today? Not a knock on you gibson, those are the calibers I like at this moment...

    It is never only about ballistics, it is also platform, size, and weight.

    It isn't just black and white paper ballistics, either. IF a .357 was the same size and weight as a G20, and would do 180@1400 vs. the 10 doing 230@1100, which would be better? Same s.d., but one has the weight and size advantage, while the other has more velocity. What if the g20 was limited to 10 rd mags, would it change anything? Would the activity or weather conditions change your answer? (rhetorical questions, really, but make the point, I think.)

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Any Cal. View Post
    .22, .357 or 10mm (depending on platform preference) .44Mag. Pick the weight you are scared enough to carry, and then you will know which caliber you are taking. Hmmm, am I 20, 32, or 48oz scared? Or for the .500 guys, am I 5.2lbs of scared to go out today? Not a knock on you gibson, those are the calibers I like at this moment...

    It is never only about ballistics, it is also platform, size, and weight.

    It isn't just black and white paper ballistics, either. IF a .357 was the same size and weight as a G20, and would do 180@1400 vs. the 10 doing 230@1100, which would be better? Same s.d., but one has the weight and size advantage, while the other has more velocity. What if the g20 was limited to 10 rd mags, would it change anything? Would the activity or weather conditions change your answer? (rhetorical questions, really, but make the point, I think.)
    What I would do is read the original question. It was ABOUT revolvers.

    I own a G20SF, but haven't joined the cult. It's NOT an FA353 nor is it a Ruger RH 357. No how, no way. Chop the barrels to commensurate lengths. . . try to keep up with a 200 grain bullet; then pick up your trigger finger and your 10mm pieces up and get to the ER.

    Bullet base diameter does equal less pressure so the 10mm has a clear advantage but pressure is the name of the game for those two commercially produced revolvers.

    And in no way are the ballistics comparable to the .41 mag. 265 grains bullet weight @ 1350 fps from a 6.5" barrel. . .

    Scared? I'm not familiar with that term.

    The G20 is too light for my liking. My wife can shoot it.

    If I want a light piece I'll go with my SBH in .44 magnum, it has a 4 5/8" barrel but it throws a 310 gr. chunk of lead at 1346 fps. Now, it doesn't have a 74 round magazine or anything, and I cannot conceal it in a matchbook, not is it a high speed of deployment weapon.

    But since "weight" is a sort of relative term, it works for me. And it's just a pathetic old SA. But I can handle it and it's can ride easily in a shoulder rig or on my hip, if I need. OC in western KY= not a problem. But I don't.

    I like big bore handguns.

    It's silly really. Like what you like but this question was clearly focused. It was about revolver round ballistics. It's an old thread that got reanimated. I'll let it fade back into oblivion as I have stated what I think, cogently and coherently, I hope. Adios.

    Re: your 500 mag hyperbole. . . I set off 50 rounds yesterday, FINALLY, after almost 3 weeks off due to a Green River skinner (now it's back to daily practice):

  14. #94
    Boolit Master Any Cal.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gibson View Post
    What I would do is read the original question. It was ABOUT revolvers.]
    Yeah, but that had been beat to death. Plus, between single action .44s, Coonans, and G20s, who was talking about the original subject anyway?

    The original post should have asked what advantages either calber would have had in a revo, rather than which had more power. In that frame, the .44 has more power, so if that is what they were after, the .41 was pointless. Learning the advantages of each caliber would have been far more beneficial.

  15. #95
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    Energetic and opinionated site ya all have here, being a fan of the .357, 10mm, and .41 I'm both chuckling and confused. No serious bears here in the sunshine state, I carry a tupperware 10mm in the back pocket at work and have a cute little 2.5" .357 K frame under the counter while there for 2 legged problems too. Very different creatures by the numbers only I suspect but I'm familiar with both and the expected effects. The .41 is in my opinion excessive for my situation. Big real bears with a handgun? No thank you, I'll take the weight of a rifle, even a 30-30 with light little 170 grain boolits (feels weird spelling it that way).

    Great site by the way with lots of wonderful information, couldn't resist throwing in my opinion as a first post, hope you all forgive me.

    Colombo

  16. #96
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    Most of the threads are not contentious except typical Lee Precision bashing. It's mostly Kumbaya.

  17. #97
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    10mm..............moon clips are cool.

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    Young kid to old vet: "How do I know when it's time to take up arms?"

    Old vet: "Well, you grab your rifle, load 'er up and go outside........ if you're the only one, it ain't time yet!"

  18. #98
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    The 10mm is a great round. Some of my personal loads are
    6in barrel
    A 200 gr cast at 1450.

    184 gr cast at 1610

    192 gr cast at 1510.

    155 gr jacket at 1625

    180 gt jacket and 1470.

    220 cast at 1320.

    If you take cast to cast the 10mm will stomp the 357.

    Jacket to jacket it will beat the 357.

    41 mag and 10mm in exact same barrel length, the 41 will outdo it. But not by much in comparable weights. The 41 advantage comes with heavy bullets.

  19. #99
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    41 mag.

    Quote Originally Posted by ctious View Post
    The 10mm is a great round. Some of my personal loads are
    6in barrel
    A 200 gr cast at 1450.

    184 gr cast at 1610

    192 gr cast at 1510.

    155 gr jacket at 1625

    180 gt jacket and 1470.

    220 cast at 1320.

    If you take cast to cast the 10mm will stomp the 357.

    Jacket to jacket it will beat the 357.

    41 mag and 10mm in exact same barrel length, the 41 will outdo it. But not by much in comparable weights. The 41 advantage comes with heavy bullets.
    All a person has to do is put the 2 cases side by side, no voodoo loading will change it.

  20. #100
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    The 10 mm is not even close to a .41 mag. A 460 Rowland gets close. Keep dreaming.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check