41 magnum vs 10 mm auto

[Sandspider500]

[M-Tecs]

There are a few fools careful enough to create things like 460 Rowland without hurting themselves. You'd be a fool to try to shoot 460 Rowland without the compensator.

The barrel or chamber on a semiauto handgun is never the first thing to fail. It's the slide moving too fast. That can cause failures to extract as well as damage the gun over time, possibly enough to release the slide. Or it's the brass blowing out and resulting in k'B and rapid disassembly of the gun.

I'm too lazy to hot rod. I don't want to separate and inspect brass that closely.

Do you have any firsthand experience with the 460 Rowland?

If you hang around indoor ranges enough you will see squibs and overcharges and yes the barrels do fail first.

The Rowland in a 1911 has been offered by at least five companies I am aware of. 460 Rowland, Wilson, Clark and two others I don't remember the names of. At least one of them was making them without comps. I've also seen one that used a 6" barrel in a 5" slide. The barrel had ports cut into it but no comp. The no comp 1911 460's are using a 28 pound recoil springs, extra power firing pin springs, flat bottom firing pin stops and a 32-pound hammer springs. Not saying I advocate this but others are doing it successfully. I only know a couple others that are shooting a 460 Rowland. We all view it like a S&W 19/66 with 357 Mags.

Like any semi-auto this a balanced system. History shows they can be done successfully without comps. Yes, the manufacture state not to fire their system without comps. That might be the correct answer for their system or it could be not much more that the proprietary comp is the only item that can't be sourced elsewhere.

Back to the OP's question.

From a practical point of view, what is the primary difference, if any, between the ballistic performance of a 41 Magnum and a 10mm revolver? Obviously the 10mm would have to use moon clips and would fire a slightly smaller diameter bullet but... Beyond that is there any significant difference between these two?

That depends on application. If you need the additional perform the 41 Mag has an edge. If you don't need the additional performance not much difference.

[gloob]

No, I don't. But see mnewcomb's post. He explained this in excruciating detail. Even while staying under SAAMI pressure, you can reach the limit of slide velocity and have to add a comp for other issues well before the barrel fails.

I will stand corrected by mnewcomb, though. He has slightly bested 10mm power levels without even exceeding normal 45 ACP SAAMI pressure with cast 45 bullets and only a heavier spring. And still using 200+ grain bullets.

But you could do that in 10mm, too. I shoot cast bullets in 10mm, but I don't know. I stopped when I reached max load data. Book says the pressure is still way below max. They put that max number there to limit recoil, so the guns sold to people as 10mm will definitely function reliably and safely.

Even though they're under SAAMI pressure for standard pressure 45ACP, mnewcomb would does not advise shooting his loads in a stock 45ACP gun, unless you go higher on the recoil spring and maybe even the hammer spring, too. I don't know what else is involved with "full Super" setup. An ammo manufacturer couldn't sell these to people as 45ACP, even though they are below SAAMI pressure! They will still potentially have reliability issues or damage guns and potentially people who might shoot it out of a stock 45ACP gun.

If you go load cast bullets, out of otherwise identical stock guns in 10mm vs 45ACP, and load beyond the book as far as the gun will function well, you would have basically the same recoil limit. And you will likely reach this limit of recoil/slide-velocity before you reach the SAAMI pressure limit in both cases. So for a given 200 grain bullet, you would have close to equivalent velocity. The 45 boolit will be fatter and shorter and maybe work better on some things. The 10mm will have better BC for longer range shooting and deeper penetration if that matters. But the manufacturers of these guns don't necessarily make them exactly the same. The 10mm versions are often designed to function at higher recoil levels right out of the box, with heavier slides or springs than the 45ACP variant! A 45ACP setup like that might not function reliably with the lower velocity ammo from the gunshop.

So unless you have a reason to shoot extra heavy bullets (at way lower energy levels than possible with 230 or less), the 45ACP doesn't have a power advantage in a normal sized, non-compensated handgun, even if you reload beyond the book to do it. It has smaller mag capacity, no matter what else you want to do.

[mnewcomb59]

When you use slow powders and you switch from jacketed to lead in the 45 you gain a lot of velocity. Especially if you are comparing a 230 WFN to a 230 XTP. Switch from the deep seated XTP to a shallow seated 230 lead and pressures go down and velocity goes up 100 fps. Seat that 230 lead down as deep as the 230 XTP seats to get the same pressure, such as the lee 230 TC, and you gain 150 fps.

Most manuals stop their lead bullet data at velocities that won't beat up a 1911. They don't stop because of pressure.

You guys gotta check out Western 8.0! It has some crazy acp loads with a wide variety of bullet weights and powders. It has so many powders and loads for lots of calibers. How about standard pressure 300 gr 45 LC with every single powder? What about 395 grain 45 LC standard pressure and +P? How about 38 special from 110 grains up to 230 grains (where it gives the ACP a run for its money!)?

[gloob]

Most manuals stop their lead bullet data at velocities that won't beat up a 1911. They don't stop because of pressure.

You are exactly right. The max lead bullet data with appropriate powder stops because the slide velocity will cause problems with some stock 45ACP semiauto handguns. The pressure won't be the the issue. In addition to the wear issue you noted and the mag springs not being able to keep up in your guns (1911's?), you may get failures to extract in some handgun designs. The bullet leaves the barrel and pressures have dropped, but the slide moved so fast that the case is still stuck to the chamber when extraction is supposed to occur. The brass takes a little longer to contract and peel away from the chamber, even after pressure drops to safe levels.

So I have already said this. I agree. If you reload adventurously but still safely, you could say 10mm and 45ACP are pretty equivalent given stock sized handguns, other than BC and sectional density and capacity. I think 10mm is better for the BC and mag capacity reasons. And definitely easier to get higher power if you want to just stick to your average reloading manual max data.

There may be more reliable pressure data for 45ACP at higher velocities than normal, due to calibers like 45 Super and more people pushing the limits and sharing data. And you might get there easier with cast bullets without fouling, due to larger diameter and lower pressure to get there. I use gas checks for my 10mm, and I never had to do that with 45ACP.

You can potentially exceed 10mm power with lead bullets, maybe. But only once you start adding compensators or larger guns. And you can greatly exceed 10mm power with jacketed, too, in these larger guns, if you don't consider using thicker Super brass and higher SAAMI pressures as cheating. The 45ACP case is bigger than it needs to be for what it originally did. The 10mm isn't. The extra length is necessary over 40SW, unlike how they made the 357 case slightly longer MOSTLY so you wouldn't accidentally put it in a 38 special revolver. The 357 case is only significantly faster to a 357 reloader when shot in longer barrels than say 4-6 inches.

[mnewcomb59]

Yeah I think the comp kills the handiness and form factor, plus you need a new holster in some cases. And it makes it so much louder. I don't want to use the compensator, that's why my top loads don't go past low end Super velocity. Since I'm not getting into Super pressures I just run regular ACP brass. My barrel is throated so I can load most bullets longer to mag length which reduces pressures further. Why shoot a 30k PSI load at 1.18" from the book when you can load the same bullet out to 1.24" and get the same velocity at 22k PSI.

In my unsupported barrel I quit when there is just the barest hint of a bulge near the case web (which you will see on most factory +p ammo), and usually I quit before I reach that point because of recoil and slide velocity. I think I got the Lee 200-RF up to about 1300 fps with Power Pistol before I saw pressure when I loaded it out to 1.24" but accuracy was lower than the 1200 fps load and was starting to outrun my Wolff extra power magazine spring. I can run the 265s at around 1000 fps, 230s at 1080 fps and 200s at 1150 fps all under 23k PSI. The trick is the throated barrel that gives you a longer OAL and more case capacity when using flat nose or HP bullets. I don't always shoot loads that powerful but I will tell you for sure that I never shoot light loads in the 45. That's what 9s and 38s are for. The lightest loads I shoot out of this 1911 are 200gr at 1050 fps and a 265 at 850 fps. I won a few bullseye matches with lighter springs and the 200-RF at 800 fps, but I felt like I was wasting lead and primers.

My usual workup process is to pick an ACP jacketed load, sub in powder coated bullet with similar shape and seating depth, then work up and see how much extra velocity the lead gets me. Lets say a load should get 1000 with a 200 gr JHP at 1.18" and with a powder coated 200 FN seated to the same seating depth (OAL may vary) it goes 1100. Then I will increase OAL because my gun is throated, work back up to the 1100 fps, and since case volume is now much greater and pressures are lower, I know I can increase the charge and additional .3-.8 gr before hitting max pressure for another 75 fps or so.

I would say 10mm and 45 ACP have roughly equal data availability - that is to say you have to look through lots of modern sources to find what you are looking for. Some 10mm data is only loaded to 30k psi in some of my manuals, and some other manuals it is loaded to 35k psi. You have to focus on the slow powder loads and check about 4 different sources before you start to find some "full power" looking data. Alliant, Hodgdon and Western all list a bunch of warm 40 data and you gotta dig to find the hot 10mm with slow powders. Same thing for 45 ACP - you gotta check lots of newer sources. Alliant is really proud of their new Sport Pistol and BE-86 and they have lots of lead bullet loads listed within the past year or two. Western 8.0 has lots of full power ACP but mostly all jacketed, so you really don't see how fast the lead bullets would go. The 45 might have an advantage if you were going off the reservation to use Super data as a sanity check. It seems that pressures build in a linear fashion from 20-30k in the load data as you go from ACP to Super. 10mm your best sanity check is GlockTalk lol and seeing what those crazy guys have loaded with 800-X and cast bullets, which is a little less reliable.

For a real sanity check, on GlockTalk they talk about 45 Super and 45 SUPER. The all-caps is Rowland pressures and load data that they run out of comped Glocks with two magazine springs in each magazine. 265s at 1300 fps

[gloob]

I don't like extra loudness, either. Worse yet is the ported shotgun.

I wonder if you couldn't still shoot these 45 "SUPER" loads with a little heavier "compensated barrel" with no holes in comp. Obviously with more muzzle flip and felt recoil.

Or just add some more weight to the slide. Most people would just pony for a custom slide. I have more than once imagined milling the sides of a slide flat and just brazing on another layer of steel. And I've never gone past book loads. That's just how I think.

I like your style, though, on the 45 sorta-Super. I spent a lot of time trying to find a cheap 40SW barrel for my 10mm, so I could do something similar. Lengthen the leade and load 40SW cases as long as possible for 180 grain bullets. But I gave up due to the cost.

It was cheaper for me to buy some 10mm cases... and keep shooting 45ACP more than 10mm! Seems like you found the more practical way for a reloader to get full 10mm+ power with common 45ACP cases.

(Yeah, I know you can shoot 40SW out of a 10mm barrel, as is. Try it with cast bullet, though. Then wonder why they smoke so much.)

[M-Tecs]

You have your answer here. I do find it interesting that long slides don't need a comp? Is it the extra mass or the fact that threaded long slide barrels" 1911 threaded barrels are not very common?

[M-Tecs]

[mnewcomb59]

I have seen the guide rods that are basically a coil over strut and have wondered how they would do. I know cheap OEM shocks on pickups don't last too long. I wonder how long till you blow the shock and that slide starts beating the gun. Gotta say it looks impressive though. That looked like about a 12# recoil spring. I have daydreamed about a lead plate that goes in the red dot cutouts on the slides, and I have also thought about stick on wheel weights on the slide lol. But if bubba's gotta put stick on wheel weights on his 1911 slide to keep it under control I wouldn't wanna be too close to him on the firing line.

[gwpercle]

The Difference ...The 41 magnum has a rim...
... and my avatar is a 41 magnum... it suits me , I like it !
Gary

[gloob]

I wonder how long till you blow the shock and that slide starts beating the gun.

Spring wore out on my baby glock real quick. Dual spring but no strut. I was shooting the cheapest ammo from the store, which happened to be S&B 40SW ball ammo. Harsh recoil but I just manned up. Maybe 4-5 boxes of shooting solely this ammo over a few shooting sessions. Then I tried to shoot some reloads that were slightly too hot (book load for cast but using plated bullets, but shot fine out of my other 40), and I got the harshest recoil impulse and failures to extract. I bought a new recoil spring for the Glock and the old one was already worn out, failing to get the slide into full battery on a round when pointed up.

If by strut, there's a gas piston in there? I'd trust that to last better than an overworked spring. If it works once, it'll last until it lasts. And I guess you'll know the instant it fails. The spring being over-tweaked repeatedly can get weaker each time.

[M-Tecs]

I have seen the guide rods that are basically a coil over strut and have wondered how they would do. I know cheap OEM shocks on pickups don't last too long. I wonder how long till you blow the shock and that slide starts beating the gun. Gotta say it looks impressive though. That looked like about a 12# recoil spring. I have daydreamed about a lead plate that goes in the red dot cutouts on the slides, and I have also thought about stick on wheel weights on the slide lol. But if bubba's gotta put stick on wheel weights on his 1911 slide to keep it under control I wouldn't wanna be too close to him on the firing line.

It's a simple air brake with no seals too go bad. It's not as new design. It's used a fair amount in various types of rifle and shotgun buffer assemblies.




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