If he didn't flare them, could he have shaved a lot of lead and killed neck tension that way?
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If he didn't flare them, could he have shaved a lot of lead and killed neck tension that way?
Ricochet, the carbide sizing ring on the Lee FCD is only a bandaid fix. If your boolits were sized correctly, they wouldn't need to be sized down by the crimp die, would they? Have you tried running a few oversized rounds through the FCD without applying a crimp, and compared neck tension before and after?Originally Posted by Ricochet
Removing the carbide sizing ring, as EMC45 stated, will make it a good crimp die.
Gentlemen,
I really appreciate your posts and have learned much from them. I readily and humbly admit that although I have reloaded and shot for decades I have much to learn and always want to be teachable. For those of you who roll crimp the 45 ACP, do you use a heavy roll crimp and rely on the boolit touching the leade to limit the forward motion of the round (headspace)? If not, how do you assure proper headspace? I have loaded many 45 ACPs with a very slight roll crimp (enough to get rid of the flare), but never a heavy roll crimp. I have never had a problem with bullet pull (tension between the case and boolit) or setback during cycling, etc., though.
Bullet Magnet,
Are you absolutely sure that the mishap was not due to a double charge, or at least an overcharge? That would seem to me to be the most likely cause (this is not a criticism of your competency) and this would not be first time such a thing has happened.
thats a new one on me....roll crimp causing excessive head space....hmmmmmmmm
headspace IS A CHARACTERISTIC OF A GUNS CHAMBER, not its ammo.
claim as much as they might most semis fire from the extractor,,,not the chamber mouth. we have seen one example here of that...other than my own custom 9mm.
ho hummmm
a 45acp should not be roll crimped, revolver ammo is roll crimped, and semiauto taper crimped.
mike in co
only accurate rifles are interesting
Mike,
I am not quite sure what you are getting at.
I believe what he is getting at is that in most semi auto 45acp pistols that their are not cases that even meet the trim length of .898 so the pistol really fires off either the bullet seating in the leade in or rifling or the extractors holding the case, or the cartridge seating so deep it's head space albeit wrongly and the overly long firing pin of the 1911 will still reach and set the primer off.
NRA said they found a good roll crimp on the ACP was the most accurate over taper crimped ones and further more said that don't roll crimp them more then .020 inch....and that the 45 acp round cannot be rolled crimped for the semi auto pistols, mainly the 1911, is a fallacy.
Joe
Joe,
I can only tell you what my reloading manuals say on this subject and that is not to roll crimp the 45 ACP, as it is a rimless, taperless case designed to headspace on the mouth. That advice and instruction is found in many different reloading manuals. Are you suggesting they are wrong?
What Joe's saying is despite the fact that the gun usually headspaces on the case mouth, you can bypass that and headspace on the bullet.....and then headspacing on the case mouth doesn't matter, and a roll crimp will do no harm.
Which is exactly right.
See my comments on extractor versus case mouth headspacing on page two. It's pretty easy to insert a case into the slide and let the front of the case rim "hang" on the extractor and look at it from below. Measure the clearance between the base of the case and the breechface. Since the primer is usually several thousandths below flush, that's the difference in distance the firing pin has to travel to strike the primer.
I can insert a 0.048" hex key between the base of the cartridge and the breechface with a little resistance. Given that the cartridge will be driven forward and canted a bit when struck by the firing pin, the headspace dimension will approximate that.
To determine whether your particular case is headspacing on the case mouth or not, insert it into the chamber while the barrel's in the slide and lock it up. Measure or judge the clearance between front of case rim and extractor after so doing. If there's a gap, the round's headspacing on the case mouth.
Last edited by 35remington; 12-08-2009 at 03:37 PM.
35, from what some members have told me here it that the extractor, with it's clearance, added to how much the extractor will move forward in it's hole, that in actuality the round does bottom out in the chamber and only the 1911's long protruding firing pin saves the day. In other words some say the extractor doesn't grab the case. So that leaves us to bullet spacing, long firing pin.
Joe
35remington,
I can understand and visualize what you describe in your posts and do agree with you. With boolits such as a 230 grain round nose, I can see where headspace could be accomplished by adjusting the overall cartridge length so that the boolit contacts the leade. This assumes that the leade of the gun in question has been cut to allow this before overall length becomes too long for the magazine and feeding.
I would like to address the assertion that because most, if not all, 45 ACP cases are below the maximum overall case length, the case must not therefore headspace on the rim of the mouth. This would seem to assume that all chambers are cut to maximum length, or near maximum length. What is the specification and tolerance for 45 ACP chambers? How tight is the headspace tolerance for the 45 ACP? Perhaps a gunsmith could comment on this.
Last edited by 1874Sharps; 12-08-2009 at 03:25 PM.
Yes and they are wrong....just like the early history books said the world was flat. Maybe some of the pro 1911 shooters here will chime in. I can show you some holes shot with my two 1911's that I roll crimp. Read the NRA book.
Joe
You are seldom allowed any mistakes when reloading and not crimping is a mistake! It's not the gun's fault and it's not the cast boolit's fault, it's your buddy's fault for not crimping. Period. Perhaps the finished diameter of the cast bullet was slightly smaller than whatever jacketed bullet you've used or perhaps he simply reached the point via powder increases where recoil overcame neck tension but whatever, it's certainly his fault for not crimping and now he knows first hand what a decrease in case volume because of a bullet seated too deep can do. The primer being blown out of an elongated pocket tells the tale of extreme pressure.....Live and learn...(the hard way in this case!) Dennis
The primer was blown out and the pocket elongated.
I know that everyone says "I am experienced." and "I know what I am doing." But in this category, I think both of us can say it truthfully.
We have each loaded literally 10+ thousand rounds with jacketed rifle and pistol bullets. My buddies and I got into the hobby to make more accurate ammunition for rifles. It also helped control the costs associated with itchy trigger fingers with our hand guns. We have both been loading for years without issue. (Until now that is...
)
Having said that, we are absolute noobs to the world of cast boolits. We have only begun experimenting with making our own bullets and working up to a load that will actually cycle. I did quite a bit of reading here before buying my own casting set up. The bullets were made with Lee six chamber dies, sorted wheel weight lead, and hardened using water to cool them according to posts here. Our end product has been quite accurate thus far.
"35, from what some members have told me here it that the extractor, with it's clearance, added to how much the extractor will move forward in it's hole, that in actuality the round does bottom out in the chamber and only the 1911's long protruding firing pin saves the day. In other words some say the extractor doesn't grab the case. So that leaves us to bullet spacing, long firing pin."
Boy, JMB was no dummy when coming up with the 1911 design features, wasn't he?
Joe, agreed, the movement of the extractor forward when the case is struck by the firing pin has to be accounted for as well in any claim that the extractor is headspacing. That's a good point. There's a little bit of "spring" in the headspace equation in any instance the extractor acts as the headspacing surface, which lengthens the headspacing dimension. The extractor is a spring itself, or at least has a spring temper and some slack in its channel in the slide which allows it to move forward a bit.
And yeah, I agree it's often the bullet striking the leade that can and does headspace the round especially when handloaded. In jacketed factory ammo the bullet bearing surface is often far enough back that the case mouth more often comes into play.
Sharps, don't quote me, but the chamber dimensions as I recall must be at a minimum equivalent to the maximum case dimension of .898" and at a maximum of about ten thou greater than that. So that would be in the range of .898" to .908" for allowable chamber depth. Barrel fitting can alter the effective headspace as it's the breech to chamber shoulder dimension that determines headspace length.
So, we've got ten thousandths slack in a long chamber, and let's say 0.020" slack in a short case (most of my cases aren't 0.020" short BTW....most are in the range of six to fourteen thou short). Add some give in the extractor and we've got even more margin. Lengthening the headspace by adding another few thousandths for hood fitting gap and we're still within the range where the case will be headspacing on its mouth.
If some zeeb cut the chamber way too deep on a particular barrel, I can't help that. I'm speaking of the most common situation in most guns.
On topic before I hijack this thread:
Have you given any consideration of using a high bulk powder like Red Dot or some such in 4.5-5.0 grain charges to approximate standard loads? I guarantee you won't miss seeing nine to ten grains of double charged Red Dot in a 45 ACP case, even if you're looking into the case at an angle while it's below the bullet seating station in a progressive.
Not saying a double charge happened here as I certainly don't know for sure and it could be an overly deep seated bullet, but at least you could rest assurred that a double charge isn't possible.
Bucks Owin,
Your post is the exact reason I asked about the primer/primer pocket/case orientation. It definitely appears that the resultant pictures were caused by a high pressure condition to me, but I can only surmise what the cause might have been.
This is a good discussion once again on the inner workings of the 1911.
35...good stuff. We're on the same page.
Joe
the excess headspace is where i keep hearing the "seat the boolit shoulder out about a thumbnail"
it's so the round headspaces on the boolit shoulder and not the case mouth.
if you even think about doing that in my 11's they won't go into battery,in fact my boy's gun won't shoot well at all without the little roll crimp over the front shoulder.
all it needs is a bump in the die.
and no all my brass isn't too long,and they aren't being held back by the extractor either.
You only seat the bullet out to just touch and you must not have a very strong recoil spring.
Joe
DL sports
Yep.
We're not trying to engrave the bullet hard into the rifling; just to get it to bear against the rifling such that the round is headspaced.
Still, there is enough leeway in so doing that the rounds can vary slightly in seating depth, a few thousandths each way, and the gun will function normally and still headspace on the bullet.
Now, it's possible that your gun has such an abrupt throat that seating the bullet out will wedge the bullet into the rifling. My Ruger P97 is like this. It doesn't have a longer leade, as the chamber stops and the rifling is full depth and height almost right away. The taper of the rifling from origin to full height is almost nonexistent, in other words.
It won't accept the amount of full diameter bearing surface out of the case that my 1911's will without jamming the bullet into the rifling so hard that it will pull the bullet when the round's ejected.
Solution for this gun is to seat the bullet a little deeper. In so doing it is still possible to headspace against the bullet and still have positive functioning. This Ruger will still allow some shoulder out of the case, though. Just not as much.
If your gun won't tolerate ANY amount of bullet shoulder out of the case, in my opinion it is not proper. I would have that barrel throated immediately if it were mine, as in my opinion it is not toleranced properly in its leade dimensions and shape.
Again, I apologize for any hijacking.
actually his has a very tight chamber, short too.
dang accurate though,it just needs the crimp and seating done this way to get the most out of it.
funny that his does best with remington brass also, never gave it much thought just worked up his loads.
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