Low smoke lubes for rapid fire

[David2011]

What lubes have the lowest smoke for handgun loads? My biggest problem is with .40 S&W loads shooting a 180 grain boolit at about 940 fps using Titegroup. Sometimes the smoke is so thick it obscures the targets when shooting really fast (2 rounds/ second or faster; easy to do on some IPSC and steel plate stages.) I've been using Jake's Purple Ceresin which does a good job other than the smoke. The smoke is especially brutal if facing the sun or shooting on a lighted range at night. In those conditions the smoke is a problem even at slow rates of fire. I'm currently trying Jakes's Scarlet Ceresin which is a little harder but so far I can't tell that it smokes any less.

Any success stories for reducing smoke in light .45ACP loads? My usual load is a 200 gr SWC at about 650 fps using Winchester Super Target for steel plate matches using the same lubes as above. I need to speed that load up a bit to reduce the carbon fouling in the chamber. It's not developing enough pressure to seal the case against the chamber wall.

All suggestions appreciated!
David

[Edubya]

I think that it might be as much the TG as the lube. I dunno all of the technical reasons for it but I noticed a lot less smoke and a smooth stroke using AA#2.
Good luck,
EW

PS: I use Lar's Carnuba Red

[geargnasher]

David, this is an ongoing quest for many. I'm just happy if I can get my .45 to shoot straight and not lead like crazy. Smoke is a secondary consideration for me, but I have noticed a lot less of it using Titegroup and LLA/JPW/MS tumble lube.

I've shot about everything there is through my Kimber, including 12 different cast boolit designs, still haven't found perfection, but I can tell you that Lyman stick Alox, Barry Darr, NRA, Emmert's, Felix, LBT Hard, Carnauba Red, Orange Magic, Lyman Moly, and Rooster jacket all smoke, and the first three were the worst. Junior's PCFL also left a very effective smoke screen that hung in the air like fog. Straight LLA smokes some, but not too bad if mixed like I mentioned above.

Universal is a clean powder, and many folks recommend W231 for the .45 acp, but I haven't tried that one. I like Universal for my 5" 1911, but my Kimber 4" gets about the equivalent velocities with Titegroup and a lot less fire out the barrel in low-light.

Gear

[eveready]

Give Solo 1000 a try with your light loads and cast. Titegroup needs to be loaded hot to cut down on the smoke.

[David2011]

I've read enough of both of your postings that I respect your opinioins. I'll experiment with powders. I've just assumed it was the lube. The .40 is developing enough pressure to burn cleanly but it could burn cleanly and still produce smoke. The .45 with WST burns somewhat dirty but isn't nearly as dirty as Universal Clays. Maybe I'll pick up some Universal. I have a bunch of 231 but never loaded .40 or .45ACP with it. The Universal Clays has a reputation for being very clean but apparently that's only at higher pressures. It actually coated my right forearm with unburned powder over the course of a steel plate match- looked like I had black pepper all over my arm. I'll try the lubes I have with different powders. If I go changing powder and lube at the same time I won't know what's helping and what's hurting.

David

[David2011]

Eveready,

I'm shooting a 180 gr lead truncated cone at about 950 fps. How hot does it need to be? That's a power factor of 171 already. Does TG need ~real~ high pressure to burn cleanly? I did notice when I loaded down to try my .40 on steel plates that it smoked horribly. I really don't want to increase the velocity (and punishment) much above 950 fps. Maybe I should size to .401 instead of .400 to increase pressure. I had Magma make me a .400 sizing die because the .401 wouldn't pass the Dillon case gage.

I'm only shooting light loads in my steel plate .45. It may never really burn cleanly.

Y'all got me thinking about options already. Thanks!

David

[cajun shooter]

David, I shoot CAS and it is a speed game. I also shoot nothing but BP but I load for a friend who has nothing of his own. He shoots 38 spl and I have found that Clays, just plain Clays not the Universal with Carnuba Red is darn near smoke free. One of the other shooters who is stuck on the old NRA 50/50 ask me how I was loading those rounds as they have no smoke. Later David

[870TC]

Just tried Lar's Commercial Red, very low smoke. .45 acp 185 gr. SWC, 4.2 gr. Clays. Its not listed on the website yet but is available in all stick types.

[yondering]

The .45 with WST burns somewhat dirty but isn't nearly as dirty as Universal Clays. Maybe I'll pick up some Universal.

FYI, "Universal" is Universal Clays. Some people, myself included, just call it Universal, to avoid confusion with Clays, which of course is different.

[KYCaster]

I've read enough of both of your postings that I respect your opinioins. I'll experiment with powders. I've just assumed it was the lube. The .40 is developing enough pressure to burn cleanly but it could burn cleanly and still produce smoke. The .45 with WST burns somewhat dirty but isn't nearly as dirty as Universal Clays. Maybe I'll pick up some Universal. I have a bunch of 231 but never loaded .40 or .45ACP with it. The Universal Clays has a reputation for being very clean but apparently that's only at higher pressures. It actually coated my right forearm with unburned powder over the course of a steel plate match- looked like I had black pepper all over my arm. I'll try the lubes I have with different powders. If I go changing powder and lube at the same time I won't know what's helping and what's hurting.

David

David, "clean burning" seems to mean different things to different people. There are two different situations here....powders that leave little or no unburned flakes and powders that leave less ash after combustion.

As you've noticed, Universal doesn't always burn completely at lower pressures, but when it does burn completely it leaves very little residue behind. At the opposite end of the spectrum, W231 nearly always burns completely, but always leaves behind a sticky residue that can quickly build up to the point it can interfere with your gun's operation.

The good news, , is that neither of these situations seems to have anything to do with the smoke you're trying to eliminate.

The smoke phenomenon seems to affect some people much more than others...if you think it's a problem then it is a problem. I decided long ago just to consider it another match day condition to deal with...cold, wind, rain, heat, fatigue, smoke....all the same. In 25+ years of IPSC competition I can recall two, maybe three outdoor matches where smoke was a factor.

It seems to me that atmospheric conditions have more to do with the ammount of smoke than the powder in the load. Dew point and light appear to be the biggest factors, that's why shooting indoors is so often a problem. Properly opperating ventilation systems change the barometric pressure, temp and relative humidity. That combined with generally poor lighting make indoor shooting a nightmare for me.

Jerry

P.S......Not really relavent to the discussion, but....quite a few years ago I shot a weekly(weakly) IPSC style match at an indoor range that has since closed. Their ventilation system moved lots of air but didn't provide any heat, so the net effect was to reduce the temp in the range and increase the barometric pressure. Smoke was a fact of life at those matches.

I had come into possession of four lbs. of Scott Solo 1000 powder at the time so that was what I was loading in 45ACP. The smoke I generated was sometimes overwhelming and the other shooters started complaining about the smell. The place smelled like a barnyard when I was done.

We decided that since the powder was manufactured in Scotland that the nitrocellulose content didn't come from wood fiber because all the trees in Scotland were cut centuries ago to feed England's iron smelters. The only available source of nitrocellulose had to be the byproduct of sheep production....thus the barnyard smell. Made sense at the time.

While I'm hijacking your thread....I mentioned earlier that the range has since closed. When the owners installed the bullet traps, they also laid 1/2 in plywood on the floor...don't ask me why. After eight years or so in opperation, somebody shooting a BP revolver managed to ignite all the unburned powder that had accumulated in the cracks in the plywood floor. It wasn't a pretty sight and the local volunteer fire dept was not amused. I still miss the place.

[Ricochet]

LOL, they should call that stuff Scot Sheep Shot.

I've got some Nitro 100 I use in 7.62 Nagant, .45 ACP, .38 and .44 Specials, but I've never noticed any unusual smoke or odors from it.

For the record, I've seen a press release where Scot claimed their nitrocellulose was made from Egyptian cotton. That was quite a while back, though, when they came out with a 4350 clone, I think called 4351.

[David2011]

Yondering,

Guess I was thinking of International Clays. Hogdon also makes Clays and Universal Clays. No, not confusing at all. . .

David

[David2011]

Jerry,

Maybe I should have started one thread for my .40 smoking and another for the .45 and its incomplete combustion. I think the .45 problems will go away by increasing the temp and pressure by using a little more powder and maybe sizing to .452 instead of .451. I'm not really worried about it but want to keep the recoil very low for the fast action of steel plate shooting. To me dirty means fouling of the chamber and action. I definitely get thick gunk on the ramp and rails in the front of the magazine area. I also get the unburned flakes on me.

The .40 is purely a smoke problem. I avoid shooting indoors at every opportunity. I would rather shoot outdoors in the rain and cold as long as I had a roof than to shoot indoors and stay warm- and I HATE being cold! The only time smoke is a real problem in the .40 is if there is an array of 3 or 4 targets that are touching and it's a 'shoot while standing still' situation. By the 4th or 5th shot the smoke starts getting thick unless there's a good stiff breeze. If I use it for steel matches that's pretty much the same as the close IPSC arrays. I'll play with powders and give a report.

David

[happy7]

I can't help on the 40, but on the 45, for me, 3.6 grains of Clays under a Lee 230 1R bullet at 1.262 OAL is low powered, very accurate and clean enough. I usually use LLA just because the bullets out of my mold do not need sizing and so it only takes like five minutes of work compared to running a grand of them through the lubesizer. With the LLA, you do not need much. I suspect that if you goop a bunch on there it would smoke more. Just a thin varnish coat is all you need.

[geargnasher]

Jerry,

Maybe I should have started one thread for my .40 smoking and another for the .45 and its incomplete combustion. I think the .45 problems will go away by increasing the temp and pressure by using a little more powder and maybe sizing to .452 instead of .451. I'm not really worried about it but want to keep the recoil very low for the fast action of steel plate shooting. To me dirty means fouling of the chamber and action. I definitely get thick gunk on the ramp and rails in the front of the magazine area. I also get the unburned flakes on me.

The .40 is purely a smoke problem. I avoid shooting indoors at every opportunity. I would rather shoot outdoors in the rain and cold as long as I had a roof than to shoot indoors and stay warm- and I HATE being cold! The only time smoke is a real problem in the .40 is if there is an array of 3 or 4 targets that are touching and it's a 'shoot while standing still' situation. By the 4th or 5th shot the smoke starts getting thick unless there's a good stiff breeze. If I use it for steel matches that's pretty much the same as the close IPSC arrays. I'll play with powders and give a report.

David

David, since you and I are both hijacking your thread , it might bear mentioning that I don't shoot loads nearly as light as you do in the .45, and that might explain why I haven't really has issues with smoke or unburned powder. I forget some folks shoot a lot higher volume than I do and desire more comfortable, easier to control loads with lighter boolits.

I think you will find that Clays or Titewad loaded light with Rooster Jacket tumble lube might be the hot ticket for low-smoke competition, provided you aren't required to meet certain minimum energy standards for your caliber. My competition experience is limited to IDPA and we were required to shoot "full power" ammunition, but I've had good success with plinking-velocity .38 Special with Titewad and Rooster Jacket in the past.

Gear

[Mk42gunner]

David,

It has been several years since I had a .40 S&W, but I had good luck using Green Dot with commercial cast 155 and 175 SWC. I don't have records of what the loads were, but you would need to verify them anyway.

Green Dot worked well enough that I bought an 8 lb Keg through the gun club on base.

My guns were a S&W Model 410 and an EAA Witness Carry Comp. My shooting buddy had several different TZ-75's and a couple of Glocks.


Robert

[David2011]

Geargnasher,

The .40 is for IPSC so those loads are full house. The .45 is just for steel plate so the only power requirements are that the boolit has to make it all the way to the target and it has to be able to cycle the action. The .22lr boolits seem to get to the plate in about 1/3 the time of mine. It took a lot of work to the gun and load development to find something that would go for 200 rounds without getting the gun too dirty to function. Maybe I worked too hard at it. I know a little more pressure will make it much cleaner but I don't want to give up any time. My average times are just .06 sec avg from moving to Master. In steel recoil is slow. Maybe I should build a 9mm steel gun and sling 125 grain boolits at the targets. That would solve all the problems. --Or put a red dot on my Ruger .22. . .

David

[fredj338]

What lubes have the lowest smoke for handgun loads? My biggest problem is with .40 S&W loads shooting a 180 grain boolit at about 940 fps using Titegroup. Sometimes the smoke is so thick it obscures the targets when shooting really fast (2 rounds/ second or faster; easy to do on some IPSC and steel plate stages.) I've been using Jake's Purple Ceresin which does a good job other than the smoke. The smoke is especially brutal if facing the sun or shooting on a lighted range at night. In those conditions the smoke is a problem even at slow rates of fire. I'm currently trying Jakes's Scarlet Ceresin which is a little harder but so far I can't tell that it smokes any less.

Any success stories for reducing smoke in light .45ACP loads? My usual load is a 200 gr SWC at about 650 fps using Winchester Super Target for steel plate matches using the same lubes as above. I need to speed that load up a bit to reduce the carbon fouling in the chamber. It's not developing enough pressure to seal the case against the chamber wall.

All suggestions appreciated!
David

Yes, on the 45acp, up your charge wt on WST. I shoot a lot of it in 45acp, best powder I have shot for accuracy in the 45acp w/ lead or jacketed bullets. You'll find closer to 800fps about right.
As to smoking w/ TG & lead bullets, a lot is the TG. It burns very, very hot & some think cooks off the lube. Try switching to a diff. powder. For the 40 & 175-180gr lead bullets, I have found nothing better than WSF right now. Easily makes 1000fps pressure wise & the most accurate powder I have tried in the 40. Smoke is stil there, but nothing like W231 or TG.

[eveready]

KYCASTER & Ricochet
Solo 1000 hasn't been made in Scotland since 2003. Western Powders now distributes it. It is presently being made in Spain and has been reformulated to shoot cleaner with less smoke. There are several posts on Brian Enos's forum by IPSC shooters stating how good it now is.

[Russel Nash]

Having shot boolits that weren't lubed at all, my conclusion is that the smoke is from the interaction of a cast boolit and the powder.

Without any lube on the boolits, they still smoked really bad with Titegroup/Clays powder.

slight thread drift ahead...

1. Why are you shooting a .45 single stack gun just putt putting along instead of your STI/SVI gamer/race gun in .40 at major PF that you shoot for the USPSA matches?

2. How are you arriving at "master" class times for steel challenge/speed plates matches?

I was under the impression that the for real bona fide Steel Challenge wasn't going to introduce classifications since USPSA bought it?

I put a C-more on my advantage arms conversion for my 1911, and it just runs and runs and runs.

The advantage to that is I don't have to stand at the Dillon progressive for an hour or so cranking out ammo. Plus, I get to save my primers for the USPSA "paper" matches.