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Thread: What is this Lube?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    What is this Lube?

    I have been made aware of a company in Louisiana that sells cast bullets that are not lubed in a traditional manner. As sold they are green in color. As I understand the process, after the bullets are cast they are dipped in a "proprietary compound"
    that is then baked on. After the bullets are cooled they are sized and ready for use. Here's a link to their website. http://www.bayoubullets.net/
    There is a demonstration video and there is very little smoke and they claim no leading.
    What is this lube? Anybody know? Sounds interesting. I wonder if it is available?

  2. #2
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    I wonder if Robars Np3 coating wouldnt do the same thing if you could get ahold of it.
    Cast Bullet info
    http://www.castpics.net/

    Reloading Data Project - (in retirement)
    http://sourceforge.net/projects/reloadersrfrnce/

  3. #3
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    it's not a lube it's a coating.
    it's used in australia and other countries and is just starting to take hold here.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    the more i find out about shootin boolits, the more it contradicts everything i ever learned about shooting jaxketed.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master Russel Nash's Avatar
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    It appears we have two threads that I am in that are kinda spiraling around each other.

    Yeah, Bayou Bullets. That is owned by Jerry Miculek's brother, Donnie.

    I talked to Donnie over the phone a few months ago because I was running into hiccups trying to coat my home cast boolits with this Sandstrom 27A liquid. It is some sort of moly coating.

    He gave me some hints/tips.

    And at the time he wasn't aware of the Sandstrom 27A liquid.

    The Sandstrom folks way back when I ordered a quart confirmed that some of the other moly coating bullet manufacturers (possibly Precision, Black Bullets Int'l, and/or Bear Creek bullets) were using their 27 A liquid.

    I am inclined to think that the less smoke you see in that video is a result of using some powder like Winchester Super Target or Solo1000, not necessarily because of the proprietary coating.

    This past summer I did an experiment where I shot UNlubed cast boolits out of 1911's. They still smoked. And that was with either Clays or Titegroup powder... probably Clays.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    Yeah, RN, it also contain antimony trioxide. That one is the dangerous one, and combined with the MEK to keep it wet it makes it especially questionable for "home" use. Be careful and treat it as fumes coming off of the pot. ... felix
    felix

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    The coating that Donnie is using is stated by him not to have any moly in it.
    This according to a thread on a local forum here. Below are two direct quotes from that thread.



    (Just exactly what this stuff is, he won't say. I asked, and was told 'Its a proprietary coating'. Which is innovator talk for "None of your business".)



    (Moly-coated bullets have been around for years. But the graphite-based molybdenum compounds are, if anything, even messier than conventional lubricant. Donnie emphatically stated that there is NO moly of any sort in his coating. I can believe it.)

  7. #7
    Boolit Master HI-TEK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runfiverun View Post
    it's not a lube it's a coating.
    it's used in australia and other countries and is just starting to take hold here.
    The Coating as used by Bayou, is both a coating and lubricant as one product.
    When the alloy is coated, and coating baked, then sized, the resulting film self lubricates and separates metals, and requires no other lube.
    It is not affected at heat at 190-200C aside from getting harder and more slippery.
    It differentiates from all other coatings and lubes that the cotaing has ability to self react to firing conditions and cope with hydraulic deformations without leaving any deposits.
    The coating does not contain any heavy metals, that are contained in many other lube systems.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master HI-TEK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by high standard 40 View Post
    The coating that Donnie is using is stated by him not to have any moly in it.
    This according to a thread on a local forum here. Below are two direct quotes from that thread.



    (Just exactly what this stuff is, he won't say. I asked, and was told 'Its a proprietary coating'. Which is innovator talk for "None of your business".)



    (Moly-coated bullets have been around for years. But the graphite-based molybdenum compounds are, if anything, even messier than conventional lubricant. Donnie emphatically stated that there is NO moly of any sort in his coating. I can believe it.)
    Generally all lubes and coatings can be considered messy. I suppose that the messiness factor will depend on how a set up is established to aplly these lubes, and, if the final results meet users requirements.

    Proprietary means just that. I do not believe that a designer/manufacturer of a unique material will simply hand over the formulation to any one that asks.
    I simply find it curious, that the minute any one seems to get something right, every one wants the recipe, and hang any proprietary matter considerations.

    The HI-TEK-LUBE coatings do not contain any Moly Disulphide.
    Many do not know, that Moly Disulphide will ignite and burn and generate Sulphurous irritating fumes. In right conditions, Moly Disulphide may form Sulphuric Acid fumes, seen as white clouds with moist air. Because of formation of acidic vapours when Moly is burnt, and, if there is also a possibility of generation of atomised Lead, due to incomplete lubrication, then there may also be a possibility of formation of solubilised Lead salts in gasseous emissions.
    Such acidic fumes generated by burning moly disulphide, are also corrosive to steel materials, and can be considered damaging to the bores of guns.
    This can be considered counter productive for the desired application.

    Moly is an excellent lube but care is needed as to where and how it is used.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master

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    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/arch...p/t-57063.html

    The Moly to sulfuric acid story is a myth. See above link.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master HI-TEK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavenatti View Post
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/arch...p/t-57063.html

    The Moly to sulfuric acid story is a myth. See above link.
    If you think it is myth, then just simply get some moly, and ignite it with a match.
    Smell the fumes if you dare, and then advise what you experience. The Moly is more reactive with fire the smaller the particles.
    With adequate air (Oxygen) and right conditions, (Fire Heat and Oxidisers) the burning of Moly produces Sulfur Dioxide and Moly Oxide which is also black powder residue.
    This black residues in guns are difficult to distinguish from actual Moly Disulphide.
    Please read Material safety data sheet (attached),where it clearly states that material with Thermal decomposition may release toxic and/or hazardous gases.
    What do you think gun powder heat and the temperature produced with powder burning will do to the Moly Disulphide????
    If adequate Moly Disulphide powder is generated as dust, and is ignited with powder burning, then you can get Sulphur Dioxide gasses being produces and well as Molybdenum Oxide dust.
    I would hate to be shooting next to you when that happens.
    I would appreciate your reply after your investigation.

    Material Safety Data Sheet
    BEMOLTM Molybdenum Disulfide Powder
    SECTION I IDENTIFICATION
    Substance: Molybdenum Disulfide
    Trade Names/Synonyms: moly powder, molybdenum disulphide, moly sulfide, MIL/AMS-M-7866 (technical grade); applies to Technical, Technical Fine, Super Fine grades
    EINECS Number: 215-263-9
    CHEMICAL FAMILY: Inorganic salt
    SECTION 2 COMPOSITION INFORMATION
    CAS NUMBER: 1317-33-5
    RTECS NUMBER: QA4697000
    PERCENTAGE: >99%
    SECTION 3 HAZARDS IDENTIFICATION
    HAZARDS IDENTIFICATION
    HMIS(II)RATING (SCALE 0-4) : HEALTH = 1 FIRE = 1 REACTIVITY = 0
    NFPA RATINGS (SCALE 0-4): HEALTH = 1 FIRE = 1 REACTIVITY = 0
    EMERGENCY OUERVIEW: Odorless, black, lustrous powder. No significant target effects reported.
    POTENTIAL HEALTH EFFECTS
    SHORT TERM EXPOSURE: May cause irritation to skin and eyes.
    LONG TERM EFFECTS: No information available on significant adverse effects.
    CARCINOGEN STATUS:OSHA: N/NTP: N/IARC: N
    SECTION 4 FIRST AID
    INHALATION: Possible irritant. FIRST AID: Remove from exposure area to fresh air immediately. Note: if breathing has stopped, perform artificial respiration. Keep person warm and at rest. Get medical attention.
    SKIN CONTACT: Possible irritant. FIRST AID: Remove contaminated clothing and shoes immediately. Wash affected area with soap or mild detergent and large amounts of water until no evidence of powder remains (approx. 15-20 minutes). Get medical attention if aggravation persists.
    EYE CONTACT: Possible irritant. FIRST AID: Wash eyes immediately with large amounts of water or saline solution, occasionally lifting upper and lower lids, until no evidence of powder remains (approx. 15-20 minutes). Get medical attention if aggravation persists.
    INGESTION: FIRST AID - If vomiting occurs, keep head lower than hips to prevent aspiration. Get medical attention if needed.
    SECTION 5 FIRE FIGHTING MEASURES
    FIRE AND EXPLOSION HAZARD: Slight fire hazard when exposed to heat or flame.
    EXTINGUISHING MEDIA: Extinguish using agent suitable for type of surrounding fire.
    FIREFIGHTING: No acute hazard. Move container from fire area if possible. Avoid breathing vapors or dusts; keep upwind.
    FIREFIGHTING PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT: Full firefighting turn-out gear (bunker gear). Any supplied-air respirator with full face piece and operated in a pressure-demand or other positive pressure mode in combination with a separate escape supply. Any self-contained breathing
    apparatus with a full face piece.
    SECTION 6 ACCIDENTAL RELEASE MEASURES
    OCCUPATIONAL SPILL: For large spills, sweep up with a minimum of dusting and place into suitable clean, dry containers for reclamation or later disposal. Residue should be cleaned up using a high-efficiency particulate filter vacuum.
    SECTION 7 HANDLING AND STORAGE
    STORAGE: Observe all federal, state and local regulations when storing or disposing of this substance. Store away from incompatible substances.
    SECTION 8 EXPOSURE CONTROLS/PERSONAL PROTECTION
    EXPOSURE LIMITS: MOLYBDENUM, INSOLUBLE COMPOUNDS (AS Mo): 10 mg/m3 (i) ACGIH TWA
    3 mg/m3 (r) ACGIH TWA
    VENTILATION: Provide local exhaust ventilation and/or general dilution ventilation to meet published exposure limits.
    EYE PROTECTION: Employee should wear splash-proof or dust-resistant safety goggles to prevent eye contact with this substance.
    EMERGENCY EYE WASH: Where there is any possibility that an employee's eyes may be exposed to this substance, the employer should provide an eye wash fountain within the
    immediate work area for emergency use.
    CLOTHING: Protective clothing not required. Avoid repeated or prolonged contact with this substance.
    GLOVES: Protective gloves not required but recommended.
    RESPIRATOR: NIOSH n95 or better for routine ambient light dust.
    SECTION 9 PHYSICIAL AND CHEMICAL PROPERTIES
    DESCRIPTION: Odorless, Dark Gray to Black powder.
    MOLECULAR WEIGHT: 160.06
    MOLECULAR FORMULA: MoS2
    MELTING POINT: >599 F (>315 C) may oxidize
    VAPOR PRESSURE: approx 0 @ 20 C
    SPECIFIC GRAVITY: 4.80 @ 14 C
    WATER SOLUBILITY: insoluble
    SOLVENT SOLUBILITY: Soluble in hot sulfuric acid, aqua regia, nitric acid; insoluble in dilute acid.
    SECTION 10 STABILITY AND REACTIVITY
    REACTIVITY: Stable under normal temperatures and pressures.
    CONDITIONS TO AVOID: Prevent dispersion of dust in air.
    INCOMPATIBILITIES - HYDROGEN PEROXIDE: Vigorous or violent reaction.
    OXIDIZERS (STRONG): Fire and explosion hazard.
    POTASSIUM NITRATE: Forms explosive mixture.
    HAZARDOUS DECOMPOSITION: Thermal decomposition may release toxic and/or hazardous gases.
    POLYMERIZATION: Hazardous polymerization has not been reported to occur under normal temperatures and pressures.
    SECTION 11 TOXICOLOGY INFORMATION
    CARCINOGEN STATUS: None
    ACUTE TOXICITY LEVEL: No data available
    TARGET EFFECTS: No data available
    HEALTH EFFECTS
    INHALATION: ACUTE EXPOSURE: No specific data available. Insoluble molybdenum compounds are
    characterized by low toxicity.
    CHRONIC EXPOSURE: 25 one-hour exposures to 490 mg/m3 caused no effects in all the animals tested except one which died after the third exposure.
    SKIN CONTACT: ACUTE EXPOSURE: Dermatitis has not been reported in exposed workers.
    CHRONIC EXPOSURE: No data available.
    EYE CONTACT: ACUTE EXPOSURE: No specific data available. Some insoluble molybdenum compounds are
    irritating to the eyes.
    CHRONIC EXPOSURE: No data available.
    INGESTION: ACUTE EXPOSURE: No data available.
    CHRONIC EXPOSURE: Rats fed up to 500 mg daily for 44 days showed no toxic signs and all gained weight.
    Bemol_MoS2_MSDS Revised: 10/31/08 Supersedes: 04/26/04 Page 1 of 2
    SECTION 12 ECOLOGICAL INFORMATION
    ACUTE AQUATIC TOXICITY: Levels up to 750 mg/l powdered MoS2 resulted in 0 mortality to rainbow trout (Salmo gairdneri).
    SECTION 13 DISPOSAL INFORMATION
    WASTE DISPOSAL: Observe all federal, state and local regulations when disposing of this substance.
    SECTION 14 TRANSPORTATION INFORMATION
    No classification currently assigned.
    SECTION 15 REGULATORY INFORMATION
    U. S. REGULATIONS
    TSCA INVENTORY STATUS: Y
    TSCA 12 (b) EXPORT NOTIFICATION: Not listed
    CERCLA SECTION 103 (40 CFR 302.4): N
    SARA SECTION 302 (40 CFR 355.30): N
    SARA SECTION 304 (40 CFR 355.40): N
    SARA SECTION 313 (40 CFR 372.65): N
    OSHA PROCESS SAFETY (29 CFR 1910.119): N
    SARA HAZARD CATEGORIES, SARA SECTIONS 311/312 (40 CFR 370.21):
    ACUTE HAZARD: N
    CHRONIC HAZARD: N
    FIRE HAZARD: N
    REACTIVITY HAZARD: N
    SUDDEN RELEASE HAZARD: N
    STATE REGULATIONS:
    CALIFORNIA PROPOSITION 65: N
    SECTION 16 OTHER
    No warranty is made, either express or implied. Information in this MSDS is based on best available documentation, no guarantees on accuracy are intended.
    Rose Mill Co.
    Bemol Lubricants Div.
    100 Brook Street
    West Hartford, CT 06110
    860.232.9990 ph
    860.232.9995 fx
    www.RoseMill.com
    info@RoseMill.com
    DISCLAIMER: We believe the statements, technical information and recommendations contained herein are reliable, but they are given without warranty or guarantee of any kind, express or implied, and we assume no responsibility for any loss, damage, or expense, direct or consequential, arising out of their use.
    Bemol_MoS2_MSDS Revised: 10/31/08 Supersedes: 04/26/04 Page 2 of 2

  11. #11
    Boolit Master

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    SO2 does not form Sulfuric acid. Sulfuric acid can be formed by flowing SO2 gas over a hot platinum or vanadium pentoxide catalyst and dissolving the resultant SO3 gas in water. These conditions are not met in a firearm.

    If burning sulfur created anything that corrosive then the black powder shooters would all be replacing their barrels quite often since BP is 10% sulfur.

    If you'd like to sell your product do it by representing it's positive aspects not by misinformation about other products.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master HI-TEK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavenatti View Post
    SO2 does not form Sulfuric acid. Sulfuric acid can be formed by flowing SO2 gas over a hot platinum or vanadium pentoxide catalyst and dissolving the resultant SO3 gas in water. These conditions are not met in a firearm.

    If burning sulfur created anything that corrosive then the black powder shooters would all be replacing their barrels quite often since BP is 10% sulfur.

    If you'd like to sell your product do it by representing it's positive aspects not by misinformation about other products.
    Thanks for the heads up.
    I will try to comply.
    You seem to have ingnored the warnings on the MSDS on Moly disulphide, about generating fumes with burning.
    I am referring to formation of Sulphur Oxides, that in moist conditions will corrode even Stainless steel.. Sulphur Dioxide is an acidic gas that is readily soluble in water and moist air.
    Many folk are affected with SO2 with allergic reactions.
    I could also consider using Moly in the coatings, but do not wish to do so.
    I have seen a manufacturing company making gease type lubricants have a fire from ignited Moly disulphide that settled on rafters on building framework. The factory was evacuated as people could not breathe from choking fumes.
    I just will ignore such event and will refrain from making any alleged misleading statements.
    Last edited by HI-TEK; 04-26-2013 at 11:07 AM. Reason: spelling

  13. #13
    SO2 does form Sulphurous acid however (H2SO3) on contact with water/water vapor. Not as bad as sulphuric, but still bad. I used to manage a plant that made sulphuric acid.

    WP
    NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor in Pistol, Advanced Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, PP In/Outside the Home, Metallic and Shotshell Reloading, Chief RSO

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
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