No Good Deed Goes Unpunished

[theperfessor]

A few days ago I received some disturbing news from Bob Krack, a friend here on this site. I first got acquainted with Bob when I offered some lead head hammers for sale here in a site benefit auction. He bought one as a way to help fund the ongoing operation of this site. Later on I bought a used Ranch Dog mold from him in a Ken benefit auction. It was as he described and he packed it securely and shipped it promptly. He is a man of his word and is a willing contributor to this site.

Bob had an idea of a way to provide a service to the members here and help the site have a small but steady source of income. He invested in a buckshot mold made by Cap'n Morgan. Then he made up a complete buckshot casting kit, with mold handles, the proper type of side cut pliers to cut the shot off the sprue, hex wrenches, and a shipping package with compartments to hold all the pieces. The complete kit fit in a Flat Rate envelope, so that the shipping cost would be as low as possible. The rental fee for the use of the kit was to go to the site, and all he asked was that the members take care of the mold during use, follow a few simple shipping instructions and to keep in contact via this site so that people would get the mold in the order they signed up.

I was the first one to see this kit, as Bob wanted me to examine the workmanship of the mold and take some good photographs of the mold, accessories, and packaging method. He wanted me to try it out but since I don't use buckshot in anything and I didn't have much time at that point to cast anything even if I wanted too I simply took the necessary photographs and shipped it to the first renter. I was flattered - even though Bob and I have never met in person he trusted me enough to send me a fairly expensive kit of tools and enough money to pay shipping to the next recipient.

But as the saying goes, no good deed goes unpunished. It's a good thing I took those photos, because somewhere along the way the mold got badly abused, as can be seen in the photos below. The first seven photos are mine, showing two views of the left hand mold block, two views of the right hand mold block, and three views of block halves together. The last two photos were sent to me by Bob; he received them from the latest recipient. You can easily see that the top of the mold blocks have been damaged, collapsing down into the top cavities. The alignment pin holes have been damaged from careless use. The sender also explained that the damage was severe enough to prevent the mold halves from closing by 0.005" to 0.010". He also remarked that the top surface of the mold looked like it had been in the back of a gravel truck.

I can only assume that somebody abused this mold by jamming a ladle into the top or shoving it up into the spout of a bottom pour furnace. Repeatedly. And the damaged alignment pin holes could only come from slapping the blocks closed with way too much force. Repeatedly. There is no reason this should have happened. But it did. And unless things have changed in the last 24 hours, nobody has stepped up to admit it was their fault.

I won't mention any names here. If you want to go to the Site Benefit section to see who has used this mold and who is waiting for this mold help yourself. But I will say this - whoever did this owes Bob and all the members waiting in line for this mold an apology, and they need to offer to buy this mold from Bob so he can have another one made. And they need to think twice about their ability to safely use simple hand tools.

This damage wasn't a ding on a corner from accidentally dropping it on the floor, this damage occurred from repeated abuse and rough handling. There is absolutely no reason for this to have happened. With careful use this mold should have been able to cast hundreds of thousands of balls. It didn't even have a sprue plate to get out of whack or require hitting, and tapping the handles to free the balls if they stuck wouldn't have hurt the mold a bit.

If Bob is feeling disgusted, disappointed, and more than a little hurt or angry who can blame him? He tried to do the right thing and has been treated badly. A little bit of the trust we all need to have in each other has been chiseled away.

I don't know if Bob will allow this mold to continue circulating or not. The latest recipient has indicated that he will try to make what repairs can be made to restore it to usability, but it will never be as good as it was. And I know Bob was planning to circulate another mold in a different buckshot size for the same purpose - to benefit the site and provide a service to the members. I can't blame him a bit if he decides not to.

We have all lost something here. The members have lost the use of a mold, the site has lost potentially several hundred dollars a year in income, but more importantly Bob (and I) have lost a little bit of trust and confidence in our fellow men.

I can only urge the responsible party to step up, offer an explanation and an apology, and try to set things right - like a man ought to do to be able to face the guy in the mirror every morning. You can do it privately, before the moderators take a hand and consider putting you in the Deadbeats section. Or you can wait until names are printed and everything becomes public. Your choice; choose wisely.

[waksupi]

I do believe the offender should replace the mold.

[dubber123]

As I unfortuantely find too often, many people have no respect for something they didn't pay for. I suggest you bring the mould up to a good casting temp, and beat the offender over the head with it until cool...

[Southern Son]

I just get sad when stuff like this happens.

[EMC45]

Unfortunate! Capn' Morgan turns out some nice gear!

[Bret4207]

That's really nice. Anyone who would do this and not own up to it and try and make it right isn't worthy of being called a "man". Cowardly dog would be more accurate.

[Jim]

I can certainly understand the "heat and beat" frustration. What I think should REALLY be done is, send the offender an email with an ultimatum. Own up and pay up or be banded from the forum. Period. No discussion, no excuses.
If you're not going to act like a responsible, mature man when you damage something that doesn't belong to you, we don't want you here.

[.45Cole]

Just a suggestion, but I wouldn't be so harsh until you know the full story, especially if you are not the offender or provider of the mold. With posts like some here I would be hesitant to come forward myself, even if I was going to pay for a new one.

Mistakes do happen, I've found that the more understanding I am towards others, the more understanding I can expect them to be to me.

[Bob Krack]

I am not hoping to vent my anger and frustration here.

There are circumstances that the abuser is having terrible problems with right now and I really suspect that he is guilty of not knowing how to use the mould. If and when he sees this thread, I am convinced he will be extremely embarrased.


I am hoping that the benefit can continue with some belief and hope of it being a useful project. Another mould is not available - at least not at the present time - at any price.

I will try either by my hands or those of others to repair/have repaired the mould and continue with life.

Advice on how to prevent this from happening in the future would be much more helpful.

Thank you Keith, for starting this thread and I realize you know my frustration and anger.

Bob

[montana_charlie]

Just a suggestion, but I wouldn't be so harsh until you know the full story, especially if you are not the offender or provider of the mold. With posts like some here I would be hesitant to come forward myself, even if I was going to pay for a new one.

Mistakes do happen, I've found that the more understanding I am towards others, the more understanding I can expect them to be to me.

There are mistakes and there is prolonged, systematic, abuse. The two seldom resemble each other very much.

If the perpetrator of this damage wants to make things right...and do it anonymously...I volunteer to assist him.
His first step is to send me a PM, which I will forward to the logical recipient...without divulging the perp's identity.

The PM is to include the date when the perp will send funds to cover replacement cost of the mould.
That may need to be one or two paydays after Christmas, but the date must be soon after Christmas, and a firm date...with no excuses for delay.

At the appointed time, the perp can mail me the money order (or other financial instrument) and I will forward that to the logical recipient...still protecting the perp's identity.

I have honcho'd a couple of group buys, so there are a couple dozen members who can vouch for my honesty.

It the perp feels no inclination to make this right, I think he should be banned from the site...with full honors.

CM

[mroliver77]

Shame, I had hoped to get it and the hammer mold one day. even after casting thousands of boolits I find myself once in a while slamming MY moulds closed. But I try extra hard to take care of an others property. If there is anything I can do to help, money, ruff someone up etc let me know.
Jay

[fishhawk]

some casters could screw up a mould if it was made from manhole covers.....steve k

[yondering]

I'm the one who has the mold right now, so I'll offer a few comments here too.

First of all, I hope there won't be any "I told you so" comments in this thread. Bob's idea of sending the mold out as a rental was very generous towards this site, and showed confidence that other forum members could treat the mold with respect. It made me angry to see how someone abused this confidence and showed either a complete lack of respect for this site, or unawareness of precision tools.

The last two pictures posted by theperfessor above are mine. They show the most severe damage, but don't do justice to the overall condition of the mold, it is much worse than the pictures indicate. Dings on the face of the blocks, peened edges, burrs everywhere, etc.

That said, here's a few thoughts:
I hadn't seen pictures of the mold's original condition, and I'm surprised to see how clean and sharp the mold looks in theperfessor's pictures. When I received the mold, at first glance I thought maybe it was in poor condition when Bob Krack sent it out, so I almost didn't contact Bob about it. Fortunately I examined it closer and realized the mold was not functional as-is, so I contacted Bob. What I'm saying here is that it's possible the damage was caused by several people; if the last recipient recieved the mold slightly damaged, he may not have bothered Bob about it. Casting with it improperly would have caused frustration and further damage though.

Also, I've tried a couple casting sessions (repair it a little, cast some, repeat) and in my opinion, this is one of the most sensitive and delicate molds I've used. I don't have trouble with Lee molds, but the aluminum of this mold gets very soft with heat, and there are lots of cavity edges that can be easily damaged.

I found a small ball shaped dremel bit at Lowe's that I'm using (by hand!) to clean burrs out of the cavities. Unfortunately there's no easy way I can think of to lap the cavities. I have lapped the main sprue channels with a pencil (got lucky and found the right diameter), this helped a lot. My last session with this mold last night was better, but the castings are still sticking in the mold and have to be pried out.

Bob, I plan to work on this one a little more tonight, then I'll be contacting you about what to do next, as my week's rental is pretty much over.

[HORNET]

What are the cavity diameters supposed to be? It might be possible to do some repair work to the cavities by placing ball-bearing type steel balls (or gauge balls,etc- McMaster-Carr sells them) into the cavities and squeezing the mold in a hydraulic press like Lee does for their round ball molds. Just an option.....I prefer to salvage molds whenever possible.

[dualsport]

Geez, you guys are like a freakin' lynch mob! How about sorting out the facts before anybody gets hanged. I would hope public exposure would be very carefully considered and justified. Anybody here besides me that's ever done something really dumb?

[pmeisel]

Anybody here besides me that's ever done something really dumb?

Most of us, probably....

[KYCaster]

Well, I don't have a dog in this fight...and I should just sit here in my corner and keep my mouth shut....but....I think this needs to be approached from a different angle.

I can understand Bob Krack's frustration with the situation. His offer is extremely generous and is a great benefit to everyone who visits this site. To see the mold abused would be hard for anyone to accept, but I think this is something that needs to be resolved through PM's among the people who have used the mold, the staff of the site and Mr. Krack. Before the lynch mob gets too unruly to control I think that Ken should lock this thread until the situation is resolved, then inform the members of the results. The more abuse that's heaped on the perpertrator(s), the more difficult it will be to determine the truth.

I looked at the thread in the site benefit section and found it impossible to determine by whom or by how many the mold has been used. From the pictures and from Yondering's post it is obvious that the mold is very fragile. The Perfessor's pix of the new mold show that the metal at the top of the small dia. cavities adjacent to the sprue is VERY thin. It also appears that one cavity is already distorted to the point it could very easily cause the castings to stick in the cavities.

Yondering's pix show considerable damage to the alignment holes and additional distortion of the top two small dia. cavities and he describes additional damage that isn't evident in the pix.

The damage to the small dia. cavs could very easily be caused by any contact with a ladle or bottom pour spout, no matter how gentle, and that damage would lead to difficulty in ejecting the parts. That could lead to more abuse which, while certainly avoidable, could cause even more damage.

Peening around the alignment pin sockets is not an unusual situation. It's quite common, even with iron molds. The effect is cumulative and often is not evident until the damage is already done. Depending on how well the handles fit, it sometimes takes a very light touch to prevent it.

My point is.....without before and after pix from every user, it will be nearly impossible to determine the progression of damage to the mold and the more we publicly condemn the abuser(s), the harder it will be to find the truth. I think it will be much more productive to PRIVATLY contact each of the users in the order they recieved the mold to see what they have to say about it.

Jerry (I can't claim my Mamma didn't raise no fools!)

[Heavy lead]

And this is why I would never partake in such a rental situation. It is doomed to failure. The rentee's are taking as big a risk as the renter's. As an example look at the evidence. It "seems" as clear as mud who is the culprit here, but no one really knows, so some if not all that have used it have doubt cast upon them. Not a good situation.
Bob, I truly hope your generosity does in fact get rewarded. I just simply see a situation like this as a train wreck waiting to happen. As a contributing board member I'll gladly chip in to help you recover costs, as I'm sure others would too. I suspect maybe the person that could be held responsible for this may not have the means to replace it, and we have to assume that no malice was intended.
Just as a thought, could there have been some "shipping damage" as part of the cause of this, that simply grew out of control?

[HollandNut]

I have no dog in this fight either ..

Shipping Damage was a first thought I had as well ..

Maybe a better , but albeit slower method , would be returning the mould to Bob after each rental for his inspection , with the renter sending sufficient funds to Bob to ship to the next renter ..

It was stated that an enevelope could be used for shipping , whether this was done or a box , of course I dont know , but I think a well padded FRB maybe would be a better choice ..

I agree with some of the other sentiments here , most of us dont have a dog in this fight , and it's not our place to be the judge , jury and executioner .. this should be a private issue between Bob and whomever , with Ken and the staff being involved only if necessary ..

And if it's determined negligence , then the verdict is Ken's as to where it goes from there AFA the forum , banning , etc ..

[theperfessor]

The only dog I have in this fight is because I was the first person to see the mold in its initial, new condition. Bob wanted me to photograph everything and he wanted to check his shipping/packing method. When Bob was informed of the mold's current condition he contacted me and forwarded the "after" photos for me to view, along with the comments of the current renter. At the time I don't believe he had been contacted by any of the previous renters concerning the mold. I volunteered to post a thread as a way to start the communication process and to give Bob a day or two to think about things.

From Bob's post I believe that process is taking place.

I had no intention of starting a lynch mob; I don't like or want to encourage that mentality. I was simply trying to state the facts as I knew them. I don't believe the damage was done deliberately; it is probably more a result of ignorance and improper use. But I do believe that once the initial damage occurred, or the initial difficulty in producing a good casting was realized, the person using it should have stopped right away and got in contact with Bob. The mistake was in continuing to use the mold in ways that accelerated the damage, and in not letting the owner know of the problem.

I think Bob is a reasonable enough person to resolve this issue satisfactorily in private, and if he needs any help from the rest of us I'm sure he'll ask. And I think it that's the way it should be handled - privately. Let's all back off a little and see what happens.

For those who mentioned shipping damage, I've posted two photos showing the packaging method. The top and bottom layers are tough, flexible plastic sheets, with 1/4" padding underneath, held together with screws and T-nuts and rubber bands to fold the edges in. The parts fit inside compartments cut into numerous layers of corrugated cardboard that are as thick as the mold halves. I consider shipping damage unlikely - it would have been immediately noticeable and no one mentioned receiving the mold in a damaged package.