Cast bullets in .223

[StarMetal]

Mikey,

Each rifle is in an entirely of it's own. We're finding that out more and more.

Sounds like I have to send you some of my soap lube cause I want to know, just like the Enquirer, I want to know if it will work.

[Stoats]

I had chronograph out and am getting an average of almost bang on 2400 ft./s with alloy at 22 BHN and a Lyman 225646 and 12 grains of N110. Interestingly I found almost exactly the same as Beagle did in his article "why grown men cry".

Rifle is a Remington 700 heavy barrel 1:9" twist.

[Larry Gibson]

357Maximum

Good to see another has found that cleaning the barrel after a certain amount of shots many times improves and/or maintains accuracy at high velocity. I've often found that "almost invisible powder fouling" to be a detriment to accuracy at HV even with the best of lubes. Funny how when I mentioned that there was a whole string of critical posts on how they never clean their barrels and "seasoning" is always better.....go figure

Glad to see someone else understands.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Maximum, I tend to find the .22 bores are more prone to fouling when shooting cast.

[damron g]

When run below 1700 hard 22's with NRA lube and a good quality barrel don't generally need cleaning.A Remington 40x in 222 with unk smooth BR barrel has many times averaged 1/2 to 3/4 MOA for a few groups in a row and shot 195-7X in a CBA match 10 years back. The rifle hasn't been cleaned for 10 years.When i shot my Savage 22-250 in a CBA match at 2100 i needed to clean with a wire brush about every 15 shots or else much vertical stringing.When i tone them down to 1650 i can go long term without cleaning.Funny thing is you can run 22's with no GC in linotype at 2800 and you wont get leading ,but accuracy is no better than 2MOA.You get that weird "powder fouling" mentioned above after about 50 shots without lube or GC.

George

[357maximum]

357Maximum

Good to see another has found that cleaning the barrel after a certain amount of shots many times improves and/or maintains accuracy at high velocity. I've often found that "almost invisible powder fouling" to be a detriment to accuracy at HV even with the best of lubes. Funny how when I mentioned that there was a whole string of critical posts on how they never clean their barrels and "seasoning" is always better.....go figure

Glad to see someone else understands.

Larry Gibson

Larry

This 223 handi sure NEEDS to be de-fouled every 20rds, but i would not call it a "CLEANING" as it is just 1 pass with a loose patch and all I get on the patch is some powder fouling. This 223 is the only cast gun I have that does not like to be seasoned, but every rifle has it's quirks and we as the temporary caretakers of rifles need to do as they ask I spose. I have many 35's , one 7mm and several 30's that show no such tendencies at full J-word speeds, but if they did I would dry pass their innards too. I am a "season your bore" person until it do not serve my perpose. There is no RIGHT or WRONG way to do our little hobby, but we all must listedn to what PROFESSOR GUN tells us he wants when going faaaaaaaaaast or slooooooooooow.


I have not seen this phenomenon in this gun when I stay below 2700FPS, just when I get crazy with the velocity.

[damron g]

" I am a "season your bore" person until it do not serve my perpose. There is no RIGHT or WRONG way to do our little hobby, but we all must listedn to what PROFESSOR GUN tells us he wants when going faaaaaaaaaast or slooooooooooow."

I have the same philosophy on bore condition.My plain-base loads at 1200 or so in the 30-06 and 7.62 x 54 seem to need a brush every 15-20 or i get a carbon build up in ft of the throat that is a bear to get out if i let it go too long.After the brush the gun has the same point of impact and is "in" the group. (as long as i don't let it cool down,then i have to fire two that go 2" higher ).These and my above mentioned 22-250 at higher velocity are the only two i have that seem to need a swab or two,all others get cleaned once a decade of when they need it.I have shot quite a few CBA matches and some clean every string and some don't.There has been no pattern to who does what and ends up on top.Heavy BR Class guys clean more than our Military class guys and it could be the higher 2100+ velocity,but i don't do it with my 30BR at similar speeds.Consistent bore condition is all that matters however you get it.
I think some people just like to clean rifles and are not willing to see what happens if they don't.

GD

[StarMetal]

When run below 1700 hard 22's with NRA lube and a good quality barrel don't generally need cleaning.A Remington 40x in 222 with unk smooth BR barrel has many times averaged 1/2 to 3/4 MOA for a few groups in a row and shot 195-7X in a CBA match 10 years back. The rifle hasn't been cleaned for 10 years.When i shot my Savage 22-250 in a CBA match at 2100 i needed to clean with a wire brush about every 15 shots or else much vertical stringing.When i tone them down to 1650 i can go long term without cleaning.Funny thing is you can run 22's with no GC in linotype at 2800 and you wont get leading ,but accuracy is no better than 2MOA.You get that weird "powder fouling" mentioned above after about 50 shots without lube or GC.

George

Reading your post brought to mind shooting 22 RF's. They go just about forever without cleaning. You're under 1700 loads are pretty close to that except for the alloy hardness.

[Larry Gibson]

357maximum

Obviously a matter of semantics and our own take on what a word means. To me "unning a patch through the bore" amounts to "cleaning". May not be scrubbing it down to the bare metal but that patch is removing the fouling and to me that is cleaning. I also am one who believes in "seasoning" or "fouling the bore" with a few shots for best accuracy. I also find that most really soft alloys shot at HV will shoot their best from a clean bore before the fouling builds up. I do not however think that a barrel needs a whole lot (some have suggested upwards of 100+ shots) of "seasoning". If it does then there is something wrong with the load. Just my opinion based on never having to "season" a barrel with that many shots.

Many prefer to keep velocity down so that best accuracy is maintained without having to clean the barrel every so often. An AR shooter having to clean his barrel in the middle of every 20 round mag is probably not going to think much of a load such as yours. I doubt even if a PD or PP shooter would much care to stop and clean (even just running one patch through it) out in the field shooting. Some probably would but most wouldn't. BTW; I've been shooting cast in the .223 since the early '70s. I currently have 3 ARs; a 7" twist, a 9" twist and a 12" twist. I also have 3 bolt actions; a 9" twist and two 12" twists. Also I have two break open actions; an 11" twist and a 14" twist. Having shot a lot of cast bullets through all of them from 800 to 2600+ fps I've got a fairly decent idea of what gets you the best accuracy, what gets ok accuracy and what barely holds paper. It takes a lot more to get even ok accuracy at HV than some lead others to believe. I'm not saying it can't be done (usually with severe limitations) but the faster the twist of a .223 the harder it is to get best or even ok accuracy at HV. It is a whole lot easier to get accuracy up through 2600 fps with a slower twist than a faster twist.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

357 maximum,

I don't use a patch as you do on rifle that I feel get a little fouling, I use a clean (without solvent or oil) nylon bristle brush. I find this fouling with the dirtier powders and the harder lubes. I've found with harder lubes that they are okay while you're shooting because the barrels are warm and keep them soft in the bore, but setting the rifle till the next day in my basement shop, which is very cool, the lube hardens. That's when I use that brush and usually I don't have that first cold barrel hard lube flyer. This also maintains the lube seasoning as I'm convinced the bristles aren't small enough to clean it out of the pores of the metal. I doubt your patch cleans it out of the pores either and concur with you that it's not a "cleaning" just getting rid of the fouling.

[Jack Stanley]

StarMetal , If I follow you right . Then it should be easier to use soft lube and lower velocity to keep groups more consistant ?


In my twenty-two madness , so far I've found that just over theree grains Bullseye . a small pistol primer and a 225462 with Alox and gas check shoot well . Also just under eleven grains of 2400 , small rifle primer and a RCBS 22-55-FN lubed with Alox and gas check has worked

Haven't shot tons of either so I am still learning ....................

Jack

[StarMetal]

Jack,

It's easier to drive a car slower then faster, but we know that a car can be driven very fast.

With that said you have more to deal with when shooting at a high velocity. Little things can be greatly magnified. There is nothing wrong at all with what you said.

To answer your question, no, I can shoot consistent groups with what I'm doing, but if my rifle set for some time, especially if the shop was cold, I will throw that first shot most the time. After that first shot the rifle is back in the saddle so to speak.

I only buy into the rpm theories that anything done faster, no matter just about what it is, is harder to do than at a slower pace. Take cutting disks and circular saw blades, etc., have an rpm limit. Everything that spins has an rpm limit.

[Larry Gibson]

Everything that spins has an rpm limit.

Anybody besides me make note of that?

And after all this time of trying to convince me otherwise

Larry Gibson

I only buy into the rpm theories that anything done faster, no matter just about what it is, is harder to do than at a slower pace.

BTW Joe; that's exactly what the RPM threshold is about. It's that point where the "harder" begins. Nice to see you finally agree with me whether you realise it or not.

[357maximum]

Jack,

It's easier to drive a car slower then faster, but we know that a car can be driven very fast.

I only buy into the rpm theories that anything done faster, no matter just about what it is, is harder to do than at a slower pace. Take cutting disks and circular saw blades, etc., have an rpm limit. Everything that spins has an rpm limit.

Well put Joe......I like that synapsis.


This thread went exactly where I expected it to after my 1st post. A great big thanks for not letting me down goes out to the usual suspects..........thank you.

This superlight 223 lives in my truck and exists mainly to make woodchucks into furry wetspots in beanfields.............pulling a piece of weedeater string with a patch on it through the bore evey now and again is no real big inconvenience, but if that is exceedingly too difficult for some I guess I stand confused............thats fine I am confused alot.

I do know I do not have time to sit around thinkin about it, I load it and try it........it either works or it don't. Sometimes the test is JUST GOOD and you need to do a bit of tweaking to the way you use a load or tweak the load itself. All I know for sure is that I am not going to run my 223 at sub 22WMR speeds just to make life easier and avoid the CHORE of pulling a string through a bore.........but to each their own we all have an opinion and we all have... If my test had failed miserably I would have loaded the rifle up with a 50Gr T-N-T over a large dose of H335 and been done with it, but it worked so I use it. Life ain't gotta be difficult.

[StarMetal]

Mike,

Glad you liked that analogy. Here's to add to it, cast bullets, just like an automobile engine do not have a rpm threshold, they have a rpm limit.

Did you hear that the Global Warming Expert's wife is going to divorce him? News said she was tire of his bull pucky.

[357maximum]

Tipper proably thought her aging heat wave issues were natural and Al kept trying to sell her carbon credits to fix the issue........I would bet it is Al's fault.


What amazes me most on the whole RPM thing is how 4 or 5 souls swat each other back and forth even though in essence they kinda of sorta almost agree.............weird.

[StarMetal]

Tipper proably thought her aging heat wave issues were natural and Al kept trying to sell her carbon credits to fix the issue........I would bet it is Al's fault.


What amazes me most on the whole RPM thing is how 4 or 5 souls swat each other back and forth even though in essence they kinda of sorta almost agree.............weird.

Well if you're lumping me in as almost agreeing you're wrong. Everything in the world has a limit....speed of light, how long a human being can live, how fast your heart can beat, you get the point. But you see Mikey I have exceptional rifles so I'm told because they break the rules of Albert Einsteins Theory of Rpmthresholdtivity. In fact your rifle posted here is exceptional now. We'll probably be told now that, like each door in your house has a threshold, so does each caliber.

Tipper you're a smart woman.

[357maximum]

"Nobody's right if everybody is wrong".................the Earth used to be flat, humans used to expire at 30 and 3,000 FPS used to be a dream..........Rpmthresholdtivity= a theoretical rate of spin that some people believe is a limit and others believe that is the spot that seperates those with a sense of adventure and may be slightly masochistic and those that do/are not..........I am sure glad I started casting BEFORE I read the rulebook.....................pretty much all I got to say bout that.

[damron g]

"I am sure glad I started casting BEFORE I read the rulebook.....................pretty much all I got to say bout that.

I like it.

I never knew you HAD to use a CG bullet with GC and had great luck at lower velocity before i was "enlightened".Then i was told if it has a CG shank use it or accuracy will be horrible even at low velocity.Overnight accuracy went sour from just hearing this info<G>

George

[Larry Gibson]

starmetal and 357maximum

There you both go with that "limit" designation again. It's an RPM "threshold". That means the threshold can be crossed or pushed as you've both apparently done. Seems after all this time you'd understand that, especially since you're both doing it. A lot of the rest of us cross that threshold also but we understand the difference and don't get excited about it. It's not a "limit".

That's good shooting and probably a good load for a few shots at a time. However it would not be practical for an AR shooter who wants a "blastin" load or a varmint shooter out here who shoots several hundred (300 - 500) rounds in a day. Is that a "limit"

Larry Gibson