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Thread: 38/45 Loading-Feedback please

  1. #1
    Boolit Master kywoodwrkr's Avatar
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    38/45 Loading-Feedback please

    As title says-need feedback on the loading and feeding of a 38/45.
    Procurred a bad 45 barrel from a member here, thanks Bob, and in the insuing PMs I obtained a set of 38/45 dies from him as well(owe big time for this favor!).
    Have had 38 Super barrels(3 or 4) and reamer for about 30 years now so think it's time I started working on some loadings.
    Anyone have a working knowledge of this critter?
    Thanks.
    Dave

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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    A buddy of mine had one way back when. He told me it would eat anything!
    Go for it.
    It is a fun cartridge.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    Look for some of Dean Grennell's stuff. He had a love affair with the 38/45 for many years the trick is finding his old stuff.

    Don't know if gun world is offering his collected works or not, they should!

  4. #4
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    Been shooting it for over 20 years. My barrel is a 9mm Colt. I fitted it to my Gold Cup. Accurate son of a gun. You have to watch primer flow into the firing pin hole. What happens then is the firing pin hole cuts little brass donuts. It's a hot round, depending how you load it, for a large primer firing pin system. Actually one should have the firing pin hole bushed to the 9mm/38super size. Also forget what you've heard about sizing down and trimming 308 rifle brass for it to gain strength. Too much work and PITA. Bo Clerke came out with this round to make a super feeling target round. It didn't take long for the nuts to get a hold of it and hot rod it. Bad thing to do in a unsupported 1911 barrel.

    My target load and general load is anywhere from 5.0 grains to 6.0 grains of Unique with a 124 TC 9mm cast bullet. When I got my dies a reloading book came with it and they were all hot loads which I won't print here nor advise. I made a barrel for a friend and told him not to load it hot. He did. Ended up blowing the grips off the frame and the magazine out of the pistol when a case web ruptured.

    Other then those precautions it's a great round. Feeds like owl poop and is deadly accurate, at least out of my Gold Cup. We're talking easy 1/2 groups at 25 yards. Flat shooter too and flat for some distance.

    Oh almost forgot, I like sizing and trimming 45 Win Mag brass as it's a little heavier then 45 acp brass.

    Joe

  5. #5
    Boolit Master



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    I had one. Many years ago, when Bo Clerke was pushing this thing, I had Jim Clark make a barrel for me, and tried my hand at it. I was a new shooter, but had no problems with it. But.

    I didn't try pushing it. The boiler room is actually LESS than a .38 Special, so there is no way it is going to be a really stout round.

    Bo designed it as a target round, believing that feeding would be more reliable stuffing a .38 size bullet into a .45 chamber. Actually, a solution looking for a problem. As noted above, the base of the case is not supported, and splinters in the hands from blown cases blowing out the grips and mag are natural results of trying to hot-rod the round. For target work, it's great...
    Echo
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo View Post
    I had one. Many years ago, when Bo Clerke was pushing this thing, I had Jim Clark make a barrel for me, and tried my hand at it. I was a new shooter, but had no problems with it. But.

    I didn't try pushing it. The boiler room is actually LESS than a .38 Special, so there is no way it is going to be a really stout round.

    Bo designed it as a target round, believing that feeding would be more reliable stuffing a .38 size bullet into a .45 chamber. Actually, a solution looking for a problem. As noted above, the base of the case is not supported, and splinters in the hands from blown cases blowing out the grips and mag are natural results of trying to hot-rod the round. For target work, it's great...
    You're wrong about it not being a stout round. It will push 115 and 124 grain 9mm bullets over 1600 fps without blowing if you know what you're doing. Would you consider that stout enough? Comparing boiler room to some other cartridge isn't solid fact. The name of the game is pressure. Pressure can build very high in small capacity cases too.

    Joe

  7. #7
    Le Loup Solitaire
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    38/45

    Dean Grennell did a lot of work with it and wrote on it extensively in his series, titled " The ABS's of reloading ". He mentions Clerke and Stone, forming cases, choices/sources of barrels, powders and working up loads, the results as well as the problems he encountered and surmounted. Really good reading. LLS

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Loup Solitaire View Post
    Dean Grennell did a lot of work with it and wrote on it extensively in his series, titled " The ABS's of reloading ". He mentions Clerke and Stone, forming cases, choices/sources of barrels, powders and working up loads, the results as well as the problems he encountered and surmounted. Really good reading. LLS
    He must not have known what he was doing if he had lot's of problems. The brass is easy can be to form. Only problem I had which I knew I would have is the large firing pin hole. How many brass choices are there to chose from besides 06 head size rifle, 45 acp, and the 45 Win mag? Heck I don't think the 45 Win mag and other 45 acp like cases were around back when this round first came out.

    Here's a pic of it.


    Joe

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    read the articles. He was able to blow up barrels pretty easy in the 70's. Today the 9x25 Dillon is the answer. If your velocities are correct you have more velocity than the Dillon; which produces enough gas to actually flame cut compensators and crack frames. You have less than half that case capacity. Do you have a fully supported barrel? I am V-E-R-Y glad you don't detonate things like this anywhere in my part of the country.

    Rich

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho Sharpshooter View Post
    read the articles. He was able to blow up barrels pretty easy in the 70's. Today the 9x25 Dillon is the answer. If your velocities are correct you have more velocity than the Dillon; which produces enough gas to actually flame cut compensators and crack frames. You have less than half that case capacity. Do you have a fully supported barrel? I am V-E-R-Y glad you don't detonate things like this anywhere in my part of the country.

    Rich
    The 357 Sig isn't shabby either.

    Joe

  11. #11
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    I had a 38/45 in the early seventies and still have some sample cartridges. I swaged half jackets to .356/357 with a C&H Swagomatic and used copious amounts of Herco as a propellant. My barrel had practically no feed ramp whatsoever and the case head was very well supported. Jack rabbits would practically disintegrate when hit with one of these but in those days I lacked a chronograph and have no idea what the actual velocity was. Primers definitely flowed back into the breech face hole until I had it bushed for a smaller firing pin. The bushing was larger than .210" and the fired cases on max loads would show the ring around the bushing as a raised impression. I'd guess these loads were pushing fifty thousand psi in my old Remington 1911. Had a 22lb recoil spring and a shock buffer ala Kings gun works. I finally just got tired of messing with it.
    Marty-hiding out in the hills.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpmarty View Post
    I had a 38/45 in the early seventies and still have some sample cartridges. I swaged half jackets to .356/357 with a C&H Swagomatic and used copious amounts of Herco as a propellant. My barrel had practically no feed ramp whatsoever and the case head was very well supported. Jack rabbits would practically disintegrate when hit with one of these but in those days I lacked a chronograph and have no idea what the actual velocity was. Primers definitely flowed back into the breech face hole until I had it bushed for a smaller firing pin. The bushing was larger than .210" and the fired cases on max loads would show the ring around the bushing as a raised impression. I'd guess these loads were pushing fifty thousand psi in my old Remington 1911. Had a 22lb recoil spring and a shock buffer ala Kings gun works. I finally just got tired of messing with it.
    Good stuff. I only disagree with you in your loads guesstimated ran 50K. No way. That's getting up to 454 Casual pressures.

    See someone else found out and knew about bushing the firing pin hole.

    Joe

  13. #13
    Boolit Bub

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    Interesting reading! Revive this thread. Anyone still shooting a Clerke 38/45? Love to learn some more.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master




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    Interesting reading! Revive this thread. Anyone still shooting a Clerke 38/45? Love to learn some more.
    I didn't note the posting dates when I started reading, but youre post corrected that. It's been a while since this thread died.

    I've had a 38/45 for many years, and while I don't shoot it much, it is fun.

    Unlike the previous posters or yore, I don't try to make a 9mm Super out of mine. With its unsupported feed ramp area, I'm happy with velocities in the neighborhood of 1,000 fps with the usual 9mm projectiles. My barrel was made from a Colt 9X19 GM barrel and is .355" or so in its dimensions. It works well with .355" or .357" diameters.

    If memory serves me right, this cartridge was developed to fill the void in the 38 calibre portion of the 2700 bullseye course of fire. If you recall, one shot a third of the course with a 22LR, a third with a 38 calibre and the last third with the 45 calibre pistol. Unlike the military teams shooting their 38 AMUs out of Government Models (they were accurate!), civilians usually didn't have a purpose made 38 calibre pistol for the 38 portion, but they were allowed to use the 45 ACP in the 38 stage. The 38/45 gave shooters the ability to easily convert their 45 ACP pistols into 38 cal pistols right on the firing line with only a change in bushing, barrel and op rod spring. No need for different magazines as the 45 mags do just fine. The advantage in doing so was the reduced recoil in the timed and rapid fire stages of the course.

    I form my cases with an RCBS case forming kit and also load on RCBS dies.

    If you insist on really hopping up the cartridge, a ramped barrel is in order or you can use the previously mentioned 45 Winchester Magnum cases. Personally, were I to follow that prescription, I would try using 308 Winchester cases (I use them for 45 ACP shot loads) and I would also use a shock buffering device such as the Wilson unit below. The rifle cases would probably require some reaming of the neck to make 'em work as that brass is probably pretty thick where the 38/45 neck would be.

    I'll dig out my set up and post a picture later today.
    Last edited by Scharfschuetze; 01-12-2016 at 11:15 PM.
    Keep your powder dry,

    Scharf

  15. #15
    Boolit Bub

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    Good information, thank you

  16. #16
    Boolit Master




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    38/45

    As promised. My Series 70 Government Model built up as a "Hardball" gun for duty, action matches and for limited bullseye shooting.

    Photos show the form and loading dies on the shelf and the Colt with its optional 38/45 barrel, and bushing. The shock buffer is what I install for heavy loads, although it really doesn't get used much as the main diet of this handgun is 200 grain SWC (RCBS or equivalent) cast boolits at around 800 fps.

    PS: Nice collection of Airborne patches in your avitar Sdalcher. Feet and knees together!
    Last edited by Scharfschuetze; 01-13-2016 at 12:39 AM.
    Keep your powder dry,

    Scharf

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    IIRC, the 38-45 was meant to get the 38 wadcutter to feed in the 1911 without a lot of work and special magazines.

    It can be hot loaded carefully. Probably best to just get a 357 SIG conversion today.

  18. #18
    Boolit Bub

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    Where is the fun in having something anybody can buy

    Thanks Scharf and all for your input.

  19. #19
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    Have they come out with the .40-.45 yet?

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy
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    400 Cor-Bon

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
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