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Thread: Installing mauser military barrel

  1. #1
    Boolit Master GrizzLeeBear's Avatar
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    Installing mauser military barrel

    I have a nice 98 mauser action (no barrel) and a new 8mm stepped military barrel that I want to install on it. The barrel is one of the ones made in the 50's? and is brand new, not a take-off barrel. I plan on putting on a Lyman peep sight that I already have and making a no-nonsense iron sighted hunting rifle. I've done some google searches, but all the info. I find is on the difficulty with removing mauser barrels and reaming short chambered barrels.
    My question is, since I do NOT have to remove the original barrel and just need to install this "long" chambered barrel, do I really need a barrel vise and action wrench to install it? I have seen a few discussions where you only need 50 - 75 ft. lb.s of torque on the new barrel, if so, couldn't I use a standard bench vise and some sort of strap wrench or something to install the barrel with that amount of torque?
    I can screw the barrel on by hand so its snug on the inner torque ring and a FL sized case chambers easily and one fired in my Yugo 24/47 chambers with just a slight amount of resistance, not much, just enough that you can feel a tiny bit of "drag" on the last little bit bolt rotation. So it seems to me, all I have to do is install the barrel to that amount of torque and check it with a No-Go guage?

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    I've seen far too many barrels " walk out " of the action because they were not put in with the proper torque.

    Without a barrel vise and an action wrench I don't see how you will be able to put the proper torque on things.

    Someone else can offer their opinion.

    Ben

  3. #3
    Boolit Master



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    What Ben said........They need to be tight to shoot well too.
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    ....and they should contact the inner collar and outside receiver at the same time and tighten up on both to be correct...the way Mauser designed.

    Joe

  5. #5
    Boolit Master oldhickory's Avatar
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    I've rebarreled a few Mausers and agree whole heartedly with what these guys say. A barrel vice and action wrench aren't very expensive and won't mar your project like a regular bench vice WILL. You can buy them from Midway and get some rosin also, and a GO gauge at least. It's an easy project with the proper tools.
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  6. #6
    I'm A Honcho!

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    Quote Originally Posted by StarMetal View Post
    ....and they should contact the inner collar and outside receiver at the same time and tighten up on both to be correct...the way Mauser designed.

    Joe
    I have only taken out a half dozen mauser bbls, bit I have yet to see one that contacted at the outer receiver....when I true everything up and fit a new custom barrel I get them to bear in both places, but the original bbls I have taken out are just turned straight out in front of the receiver...

    Bill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willbird View Post
    I have only taken out a half dozen mauser bbls, bit I have yet to see one that contacted at the outer receiver....when I true everything up and fit a new custom barrel I get them to bear in both places, but the original bbls I have taken out are just turned straight out in front of the receiver...

    Bill
    On the other hand I, so far, haven't seen any that didn't make contact on both areas. You're luckier as one contact should be easier to take off.

    Joe

  8. #8
    Boolit Master Mk42gunner's Avatar
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    The strap wrench is a bad idea, in my experience. It will hold for a while, then give way because the Mauser action is not round.

    I learned this the hard way trying to take the barrel off of a 1909 Argentine.

    Keep your eyes open, a lot of people buy the tools, use them once and then sell them.


    Robert

  9. #9
    Boolit Master GrizzLeeBear's Avatar
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    Been a while, but thanks for the input guys!

    Well I'm going to go in a little different direction. I picked up a very nice "new" take-off Zastava sporter barrel in .270 on Gunbroker. I want to rust blue the action and I think the satin/matte finish on this barrel will match nicely. If I decide to install it myself I will get a barrel vise and action wrench.
    Joe, I think this barrel is going to fit perfectly on both the inner collar and outer face. Measuring with the depth end of my caliper the inner to outer faces on the action are within less than .003 of the barrel face to end of threads, if not right on! I screwed the barrel in and just hand tightening it it looks like it contacts both surfaces perfectly. So it looks like I should be able to screw it on, torque it down to 75 ft. lb. or so, check the headspace and be good to go!

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    I agree with some others here....at least partially. 50 ft-lbs is too loose. Around 75 ft-lbs, or a little more, will do just fine. Absolutely NO need for the so-called "crush fit" that some adhere to (crushing the threads with high torque to close the last 0.002" or so, so that the outer barrel shoulder will seat against the receiver face). THAT just damages the threads....and it isn't necessary, anyway. You ARE better off with proper tools....though it can be done otherwise (I've done re-barrels many times in the past, with a bench vise and a PROPERLY-designed fixture for the barrel, plus a home-made receiver wrench (again, PROPERLY designed). It is simpler to just buy the correct tools (as I found out myself) - a bit more costly, but simpler....and I'd recommend that.

    As for both the barrel face and outer barrel shoulder NEEDING to make contact, in order to have an accurate barrel...... that is nonsense. As long as the threads on receiver and barrel are correct (so that the barrel screws in STRAIGHT), then the critical issue is the inner torque shoulder. The barrel face should ALWAYS contact the inner ring.....but it isn't necessary that the outer barrel shoulder contact the receiver. Looks nice, but it isn't absolutely necessary (there is no "extra support" or "vibration damping" value to it.....two myths that I have heard)..... which supposedly leads to better accuracy. I always strove to have the outer barrel shoulder to make contact, just because it would look better..... that's all. But, I know that it is of no technical value through experience.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcp477 View Post
    I agree with some others here....at least partially. 50 ft-lbs is too loose. Around 75 ft-lbs, or a little more, will do just fine. Absolutely NO need for the so-called "crush fit" that some adhere to (crushing the threads with high torque to close the last 0.002" or so, so that the outer barrel shoulder will seat against the receiver face). THAT just damages the threads....and it isn't necessary, anyway. You ARE better off with proper tools....though it can be done otherwise (I've done re-barrels many times in the past, with a bench vise and a PROPERLY-designed fixture for the barrel, plus a home-made receiver wrench (again, PROPERLY designed). It is simpler to just buy the correct tools (as I found out myself) - a bit more costly, but simpler....and I'd recommend that.

    As for both the barrel face and outer barrel shoulder NEEDING to make contact, in order to have an accurate barrel...... that is nonsense. As long as the threads on receiver and barrel are correct (so that the barrel screws in STRAIGHT), then the critical issue is the inner torque shoulder. The barrel face should ALWAYS contact the inner ring.....but it isn't necessary that the outer barrel shoulder contact the receiver. Looks nice, but it isn't absolutely necessary (there is no "extra support" or "vibration damping" value to it.....two myths that I have heard)..... which supposedly leads to better accuracy. I always strove to have the outer barrel shoulder to make contact, just because it would look better..... that's all. But, I know that it is of no technical value through experience.
    I understand the crush fit a little different then you mentioned. I understand it as the barrel being cut with a different V angle then the receiver. One is 55 degrees and the other is 60 degrees. This gives a crush fit. The other thing is about the torque. I talked to Savage and then I talked to one of the most prominent Savage builders in the country, recommended by Savage, on how much do you torque the barrel nut. I came to find out that it was told that it's just snug and that's how the factory done them. They may at times have a thread locker on them. The Savage fellow said that if I was just putting a one time barrel on to just snug the nut. He said if I was going to swap barrels then to torque. He gave me a torque figure that's no ways near high as what's been suggest here on torquing Mauser barrels.

    Joe

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    BR barrels are not much more than "finger" tight, and every thread requires the same amount of non-zero torque. For example, it the gun requires 16 ounces of torque, each thread must supply one ounce making 16 threads. I don't know what the actual torque figures are, but indeed these guys use a specialized wrench. I suspect each BR vendor has different figures based on his ideas for type of barrel and action. ... felix
    Last edited by felix; 12-05-2009 at 12:01 PM.
    felix

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    Boolit Man
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    I am a little confused. I also have no practical experience in these matters. I've just read a little and may have misunderstood that.

    I thought that I read from many sources that Savage rifles have a good reputation for ''out of the box'' accuracy. I thought that I also read that they are adjustable for head space by turning the barrel in or out of the receiver and torquing the barrel nut. That sounds to me like the barrel does not torgue down on any inner receiver ring, but only torques on the front of the receiver by the use of the barrel nut.

    I've never seen the inside of a Savage receiver and only one Siamese Mauser receiver I no longer have.

    If Savage rifles are accurate, yet do not torque on an inner receiver ring can someone explain to me why?

    Also is there the same accuracy potential from a custom switch barrel Mauser.....all things being equal otherwise.

    I'm not talking bench rifle accuracy here, but better than many out of the box rifles I see written up in gun magazines these days. My old Swede Mausers will outperform most of those I've read about. Or maybe it's just the writers don't have adequate time to develop truly accuracte loads for the rifles they test.

    Anyone with thoughts on this........Mike
    Last edited by Spector; 12-05-2009 at 08:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spector View Post
    I am a little confused. I also have no practical experience in these matters. I've just read a little and may have misunderstood that.

    I thought that I read from many sources that Savage rifles have a good reputation for ''out of the box'' accuracy. I thought that I also read that they are adjustable for head space by turning the barrel in or out of the receiver and torquing the barrel nut. That sounds to me like the barrel does not torgue down on any inner receiver ring, but only torques on the front of the receiver by the use of the barrel nut.

    I've never seen the inside of a Savage receiver and only one Siamese Mauser receiver I no longer have.

    If Savage rifles are accurate, yet do not torque on an inner receiver ring can someone explain to me why?

    Also is there the same accuracy potential from a custom switch barrel Mauser.....all things being equal otherwise.

    I'm not talking bench rifle accuracy here, but better than many out of the box rifles I see written up in gun magazines these days. My old Swede Mausers will outperform most of those I've read about. Or maybe it's just the writers don't have adequate time to develop truly accuracte loads for the rifles they test.

    Anyone with thoughts on this........Mike
    Savage is just a tubular receiver. It had no inner collar. My gunsmith friend and I believe Savages are inherently accurate because of the barrel nut system. We feel that that nut somehow has something to do with putting stress on the barrel shank differently then if the barrel had a shoulder without the nut system. We also believe it somehow changes the barrel harmonics or vibrations to the better. From what I've been told Savage barrels themselves are soft. That for the average hunter they'll last more then a lifetime, but if you're target shooter or high volume varmint shooter they'll lose their edge fast. Quality barrels of other manufacturers are equally as accurate on the Savage receiver so it's not just the barrel alone. Another similar system that shoots very well are the Dan Wessons. Here we have a barrel that screws easily into the receiver, then a shroud goes over it, finally a nut tightens all of it holding it together. We feel that in this system, again, the barrel nut stresses the barrel between the receiver and shroud somehow enhancing the accuracy. Again this probably plays on harmonics. Yes I know there are some Dan Wesson's that shoot terrible, but generally they are some of the most accurate revolvers.

    Joe

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Small ring mausers torque up on the front of the reciever ring, as do 1917 and P14 Enfields, m70, 03 springfields and many, many more, and plenty of those are very accurate, I believe the inner torque surface of the 98 was put there as a strength feature. As far as I know original mauser barrels are threaded with 55* whitworth threads, same as recievers, but many after market barrels are simpley threaded with standard 60* v thread. As for the reason to Savage 110 design accuracy I personally think it is a function of the 2 piece bolt body, self centering/aligning feature.
    Hell, I was there!

  16. #16
    Boolit Master

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    Swheeler is definitely on to half of the 'Savage secret'. The bolt head can pivot easily to
    let the lugs bear totally evenly and not forcing the rear of the bolt to flail around like
    a rigid bolt system does when only one lug bears. The fact that each rifle has perfect
    headspace due to the barrel nut system can't hurt.

    Bill
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  17. #17
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    The barrel nut definitely plays a major role. On a recent build, with a synthetic stock, I free floated the barrel and Devcon bedded the action. Normally I be a little ways up the barrel root in front of the receiver. This meant, on the Savage, that the barrel nut would be bedded. Wrong thing to do. It wouldn't shoot for anything. Then I merely relieved the barrel nut from the bedding and it was like night and day difference. It was really shooting then. I'm not sold on the loose bolt head. There are many conventional bolts that bear evenly and still don't shoot.

    Joe

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarMetal View Post
    The barrel nut definitely plays a major role. On a recent build, with a synthetic stock, I free floated the barrel and Devcon bedded the action. Normally I be a little ways up the barrel root in front of the receiver. This meant, on the Savage, that the barrel nut would be bedded. Wrong thing to do. It wouldn't shoot for anything. Then I merely relieved the barrel nut from the bedding and it was like night and day difference. It was really shooting then. I'm not sold on the loose bolt head. There are many conventional bolts that bear evenly and still don't shoot.

    Joe
    I would think that if a barrel nut was the "secret" to accuracy, all those record setting benchrest rifles would be wearing one. On the other hand there are some custom BR actions with beveled locking lugs so that they can center themselves on lockup.
    Hell, I was there!

  19. #19
    Boolit Master Mr Humble's Avatar
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    Just an FYI. Savage and the new Marlin XL/XC barrels are interchangable.
    Here's my "270" XL wearing a Savage 22-250 barrel that had been condemned for a rough throat. It is now a 22-06 (wildcat) and will plug 5 55 gr Dogtowns into 3/4 moa at 3900 fps.
    (Just a silly "I can do it with hand tools project")
    All you need is a barrel vise, headspace gauge and the Savage/Marlin barrel nut wrench (Brownells).
    Takes about 20 minutes the first time (if not rechambering). You can have a 270, 30-06, 35 whelen (XL) or a 22-250, 243, 260, 7mm08, 308 and 358 (XC) with only two stocked actions!





    Maybe even a 411 hawk with BIG cast boolits?

  20. #20
    PinewoodSavage 357maximum's Avatar
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    Mr. Humble


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