EXCESS Sizing

[Wayne S]

What would you consider excess sizing on a 30 cal. bullet ? OR has experence shown that sizing a .314 bullet down to .310 didn't effect how accurate the bullet was ??

[sturf]

I have heard or read that .005 is as much as you want to size. God Bless.

[StarMetal]

Myself and others on the board have found great success sizing down even further then you mentioned. Most important things are one make sure the lube grooves have lube in them first as the lube prevents the grooves from being squeezed in. The metal has to go somewhere when you size a bullet and normally they grow longer so lube in the grooves is important. If it's a major size down I would do it in stages if at possible. It's important that the bullet is sized very well centered.

Joe

[Char-Gar]

When the planets and stars are in perfect alignment and/or hearts are pure, our bullets fall from the mold at the correct size and need no sizing. This is a truly wonderful thing. But most time, size we must.

There are myths about bullet sizing and what it does to accuracy. I hold the opinion that it is how you size (method) that counts and not how much you size.

In a traditional machine where the bullets goes in base first by pressure on the nose, a bullet can be mashed pretty good by the presure on the nose. The more sizing required, the more pressure required.

Now, if a bullet is sized by pushing it through the die with a full caliber rod on the base, things are very different. Sizing is much less destructive this way.

Bullets can be sized WAY down, if it is done in stages and by a nose first push through die.

I once took two different Lyman 311291 molds and tested them in my Browning SS rifle in 30-30. The first mold threw bullets .301X.310 and I crimped on the gas check in a .311 push through die. The second mold threw the same design bullet .303X.315. I sized this bullet down on both the body and nose as the first mold (.301X.310) and fired four five shot groups with each bullet at 100 yards. Not a true scientific test but enough for me to get the idea.

When I did the final measuring it ended up with no significant difference between the two bullets. Since that day, I have not worried about how much I size, just how I size.

BTW..both bullets produced sub (slightly) MOA groups. That heavy barel Browning Traditional Hunter in 30-30 is one shooting Jessie.

[Wayne S]

Chargar,
I too have read about drastic reduction .454 to .430 and .285 to .277 [7 MM to 270 W. by useing the nose first method, BUT I lost all my reference material in hurrican Ivan.
So , just to get it correct,
1. get a flat bottom top punch to fit in my sizer
2. get a short .309-.310" rod to push the bullet out the bottom of the H&I die
3. Remove the pin inside the H&I die to allow anall the way through the H&I die
4. size nose first all the way through the H&I die
5. Replace knock out pin back in .310 H&I die, lube and seat GC as normal

Anything else ??
OR as Starmetal suggests
Fill the lube groove by sizing and lubing and seating GC in a .314 H&I die, THEN
RE-SIZE the bullets in a .310 die.

OR try one pass through a .312 die

OR hope NOE will offer his .314-129 gn design [FN style for low FPS shooting] in .3105-.311
GOOD THING I'M RETIRED

[Wayne S]

Chargar,
I too have read about drastic reduction .454 to .430 and .285 to .277 [7 MM to 270 W. by useing the nose first method, BUT I lost all my reference material in hurrican Ivan.
So , just to get it correct,
1. get a flat bottom top punch to fit in my sizer
2. get a short .309-.310" rod to push the bullet out the bottom of the H&I die
3. Remove the pin inside the H&I die to allow anall the way through the H&I die
4. size nose first all the way through the H&I die
5. Replace knock out pin back in .310 H&I die, lube and seat GC as normal

Anything else ??
OR as Starmetal suggests
Fill the lube groove by sizing and lubing and seating GC in a .314 H&I die, THEN
RE-SIZE the bullets in a .310 die.

OR try one pass through a .312 die

OR hope NOE will offer his .314-129 gn design [FN style for low FPS shooting] in .3105-.311
GOOD THING I'M RETARDED I MEAN RETIRED

[StarMetal]

I've sized down RCBS's 124 gr 9mm bullets and 357 SWC to 30 caliber for my M1 carbine and they shoot just as well as the right bullets for that caliber.

If you're using a Lyman/RCBS type sizer it's important that the mouth of the size die is nicely radiused. As mentioned go in steps. The only bullets that I've actually had problems with on these type of luber/sizers are the long heavy 22 caliber ones. I'm just not getting all the bad things that are said about them. One thing that makes a difference is that if your sizer and lube is a little cold it takes lot's more force to push a bullet into the die. Warmer makes it easier.

Joe

[Calamity Jake]

Chargar,
I too have read about drastic reduction .454 to .430 and .285 to .277 [7 MM to 270 W. by useing the nose first method, BUT I lost all my reference material in hurrican Ivan.
So , just to get it correct,
1. get a flat bottom top punch to fit in my sizer
2. get a short .309-.310" rod to push the bullet out the bottom of the H&I die
3. Remove the pin inside the H&I die to allow anall the way through the H&I die
4. size nose first all the way through the H&I die
5. Replace knock out pin back in .310 H&I die, lube and seat GC as normal

You want to seat/size the check at the same time


Anything else ??
OR as Starmetal suggests
Fill the lube groove by sizing and lubing and seating GC in a .314 H&I die, THEN

Your only changing the size .004, that is .002 per side, doesn't take much pressure to do that.
Use your .310 as a pushthru for check seating/sizing then reinstall the I pin for lubing.

RE-SIZE the bullets in a .310 die.

OR try one pass through a .312 die

OR hope NOE will offer his .314-129 gn design [FN style for low FPS shooting] in .3105-.311
GOOD THING I'M RETIRED

Have a good day

[Leftoverdj]

What would you consider excess sizing on a 30 cal. bullet ? OR has experence shown that sizing a .314 bullet down to .310 didn't effect how accurate the bullet was ??

Wayne, conventional wisdom and my experience say you should be able to do that in one step with no loss of accuracy in normal rifles. A finely tuned benchrest rifle might show a difference, but few of us are shooting those.

[Char-Gar]

Wayne... The traditional lube/size machine like Lyman, RCBS and SAECO are best used to lube bullets already sized or about to be sized, using a die .001 over the size of the raw or sized bullet. The idea being you just want to lube the bullet and not size it in that machine.

The best way is to use a size die that mounts in the top of your loading press like the Lee or custom made dies by Buckshot. Lee will make one in a custom size for a reasonable charge over standard, and the work of Buckshot is outstanding and very reasonable in price

These dies come with the proper push through rod that mounts in the shell holder of your press.

While not popular much these days, there were some Co-Ax sizing dies to do nose first sizing in the traditional machine. These dies required a deeper funnel at the mouth to align the bullet, a flat punch to push it down and the bottom ejector pin had to be turned to fit the nose of the bullet. Hanned Line made and sold such things before they went belly up a couple of years back. I don't know who if anybody makes them now.

There are also some custom made gizmos that fit in the top of your loading press that hold your Lyman or RCBS dies for nose first push through sizing. You do have to remove the ejector pin. I have one it enables me to use the large collection of sizing dies I already own. I know of no commercial source, but a number of us with lathes have made them for our own use.

When you size way down it is a good idea to lube the bullet first in an oversize die to keep the lube grooves from closing. As stated before this is best done in stages perhaps .010 at a time, but others can give you better information on this than I can.

I understand this method converts the lube and size operation from one to two steps, but it is worth it when precision rifles shooting is involved. For hangun, I just lube and size in the Lyman 450 and am done with it.

The Star sizer is the nee plus ultra as it sizes nose first on everything. They are pricy, but those that have them won't go back.

[montana_charlie]

What would you consider excess sizing on a 30 cal. bullet ?

Speaking directly to the question as asked...

Many (most?) of us believe that the less modification a bullet sees, between falling out of the mould and exiting the muzzle, the better. For that reason, large changes to a bullet's original diameter are probably not really desirable...unless you are making adjustments for a 'special case' where getting a different mould isn't the path you want to follow.

I never get into that situation, so I have little notion of how much is too much when it comes to sizing one down. Therefore, my opinion (and it's only an opinion) is based on this...

When Lyman applies a number like 457132 to a bullet design, we know it is intended for a .45 caliber rifle. We also know that most .45 caliber rifles have groove diameters up in the .458 - .459 range...and are not surprised if the bullet drops at .460".

As I understand it, Lyman chooses '457' for the first three numbers in that designation to tell the caster that the mould produces a bullet which can be sized down to that diameter (.457") without serious damage to the overall conformation of the bullet.

Based on that understanding, I would consider three thousandths to be about the most I would ever (willingly) size down a .45 caliber bullet. (I might even consider that to be too much for a very small caliber bullet.)

If an application required a significantly smaller diameter, I would look for an appropriate mould.

CM

[StarMetal]

Lot of myths here. The one fellow I see right is Leftoverdj...he has it right.

Chargar,

Not to start an argument with you, lord knows I get into enough of those, but (and again not to name any calibers) I've shot all those small or in many cased ragged hole groups, also some at high velocity, with bullets sized from a Lyman 450. So I'll probably get "well you have an exceptional Lyman or are lucky". I don't think so, I think it's a well perpetuated myth that the push through sizers are the BEST.

Although I'm on his ignore list, montana charlie couldn't be further from the truth. Come on guys..if you size more then .003 of inch you ruined the bullet??????? I don't think so.

But you know what...they are you bullets and if you want to follow the myths and fork out more money for moulds that you don't have to size much for...go ahead. I'm enjoying my shooting just sizing along.

Again like Leftoverdj said, unless we are shooting sophisticated target rifles you won't notice any difference....that is unless you actually ruined your bullets.

Joe

[fredj338]

Lot of myths here. The one fellow I see right is Leftoverdj...he has it right.

Although I'm on his ignore list, montana charlie couldn't be further from the truth. Come on guys..if you size more then .003 of inch you ruined the bullet??????? I don't think so.

Joe

I have to agree. I have even sized jacketed bullets down 0.006" w/ very good accuracy. If more than 0.003", I like to size in steps, nose first in a Star or Lee setup.

[StarMetal]

I have to agree. I have even sized jacketed bullets down 0.006" w/ very good accuracy. If more than 0.003", I like to size in steps, nose first in a Star or Lee setup.

Fred,

I've sized jacketed down too. The one thing you have to watch for on jacketed, depending on how they are constructed, is jacket/core separation.

You are correct in sizing in steps if the size needed is much smaller.

I want to say one more thing about sizing. I'll be referring to the sizers that push the bullet into a sizing die...such as Lyman and RCBS. I see them sort of like a swagger. We know swagged bullets are very accurate. In a sense sizing swages them and we know the metal gets displaced...so maybe if there are very small voids, they made get "ironed" out by the metal displacement. I believe it was the old sizer dies that didn't have the gentle relief area at the mouth and shaved bullets that started this bad myth.

Joe

[mpmarty]

My best accuracy to date is with boolits that come out of the mold at .309 and I seat checks by hand (tapping base on bench top) then push them through a .309 sizer to crimp on the checks. These boolits are tumbled in LLA, checked, crimped and then tumbled a second time. Dried overnight and shaken not stirred in motor mica to give them a nice clean surface dusting. These are fired in a Savage .308 pillar bedded 26" custom and shot over a bench rest with a 24X scope. If you don't have an accurate rifle to shoot your loads in why bother worrying about sizing, trimming, weighing or anything else?

[KCSO]

Thanks to Buckshot I found out that there is a LOT of sizing you can do before you get to excess. I have sized a 326 bullet to 317 in steps with push through dies for a stubborn 303 and have gotten excellent results. I lube apply a gas check and size to 324, then to 320, then to 317. They get longer but they shoot as good as can be.

[Char-Gar]

Joe.. Sure you would start an agrument with me or anybody else, for tis your nature. I like you because you are consistant. You can be depended on to be contary, but the world needs all kinds of folks including the contrary ones.

As to the drastic sizing, I think I mentioned that others would come along with better input. I have not done much of it, but when I did ,I did it in stages as other recommended. Maybe it is a myth and not necessary, but I don't really care. It worked for me and I didn't try doing it all in one fell swoop to see if there was any difference.

I don't read the posts of others unless there is something directed to me. I just say my piece and go my way. I get pretty tired of all of this nonsense. I don't feel it is my duty and obligation to disagree with somebody every time I can find an opportunity.

You on the other hand...well take care Joe and keep em in the X-ring.

[StarMetal]

Joe.. Sure you would start an agrument with me or anybody else, for tis your nature. I like you because you are consistant. You can be depended on to be contary, but the world needs all kinds of folks including the contrary ones.

As to the drastic sizing, I think I mentioned that others would come along with better input. I have not done much of it, but when I did ,I did it in stages as other recommended. Maybe it is a myth and not necessary, but I don't really care. It worked for me and I didn't try doing it all in one fell swoop to see if there was any difference.

I don't read the posts of others unless there is something directed to me. I just say my piece and go my way. I get pretty tired of all of this nonsense. I don't feel it is my duty and obligation to disagree with somebody every time I can find an opportunity.

You on the other hand...well take care Joe and keep em in the X-ring.

Thanks Chargar,

It would be interesting to sit down with an exceptional target rifle and see how much a difference there is between the two sizing methods.

To tell you the truth Chargar there was a time when I was younger that I loved reloading almost as much as the shooting. Not anymore. I use to pan lube and went to the Lyman luber/sizer. Man what a day and night difference. So much faster. Anything that makes the reloading operation faster and easier is the way I "like" to go, unless it gives bad results.

Take care.

Joe

[Bullshop]

About the most radical sizing I do on a regular basis is from a mold that drops at .515" and I size down to .504". That's what 11 thousandths?
I know the accuracy of these boolits is excellent because some of the customers have sent pics of their targets.
Like has been said I size in steps not over .004" at a time with the lube grooves filled and sizing nose first.
BIC/BS

[243winxb]

What would you consider excess sizing on a 30 cal. bullet ? OR has experence shown that sizing a .314 bullet down to .310 didn't effect how accurate the bullet was ??

From Lyman's FAQ

Q: What is the maximum amount a cast bullet can be sized?
A: We do not recommend sizing down more than .002" to .003" as this will cause severe deformity to the bullet, causing decreased accuracy.

Personaly, i have sized down .004" in 44mag. using a Lyman 450, no problems.