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Thread: Dangers of cast bullets in m1 carbine?

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
    ELFEGO BACA's Avatar
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    Dangers of cast bullets in m1 carbine?

    I found this on the ultimax website http://www.ultimak.com/default.htm and i am wondering if anyone has had problems shooting cast bullets in their m1 carbine. I am not sure how many hundreds of cast bullets i have shot with my m1 carbine but i have not noticed any problems.
    The website: http://www.ultimak.com/M6instructions.htm contains the following.

    Tip: Never use bare lead bullets in your Carbine. Though they may feed and function for a while, each lead bullet will leave a tiny shaving of lead in the gas channel. Eventually, the gas piston will jam on the lead shavings, rendering your Carbine inoperable. The only cure is to completely strip the Carbine, remove the piston, and clean out all the lead. It can be dangerous too: Since the jammed piston will not allow the op rod all the way forward, it could result in a cartridge firing "out of battery" (firing with the bolt lock lugs only partially engaged with the receiver). Use only jacketed bullets, as the Carbine was designed for them. JPHs (jacketed hollow points) will be fine as long as they feed reliably and leave no lead exposed to the bore surfaces.

    Elfego
    Last edited by ELFEGO BACA; 11-21-2009 at 02:35 AM. Reason: CORRECT WEB ADDRESS AND SPELLING
    When the going gets tough the tough get going!

  2. #2
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    .............I've never heard of an M1 firing out of battery for any reason. I do know that it appears that lead CAN be an issue with the gas tappet, but from my reading it isn't something that happens to everyone, only happens after considerable shooting, and happens rather less often then more. I had an M1A1 almost 25 years ago and shot quite a lot of cast out of it and didn't have any problems.

    I do not believe in the 'Lead Sliver' theory however. I know for a fact that lead boolits (it's been proven) with BP as the propellant upset ONLY at ignition. While smokless is progressive in it's burning characteristics, it also does not cause upset anywhere else in the barrel except in the first few inches. Unless there is a mechanical issue causing actual lead shaving at the gas port it just isn't happening.

    I'm more inclined to think it may be general trash accumilation from less then optimal loads. Possibly some lead vapor deposits also? The general design of the Carbine's gas operaitng system, it's more open or looseness, or shortness of the system seem very self cleaning. I will say that more resently a friend was shooting an M1 with cast and it stopped operaitng semi-automatically. Removing the barreled action from the stock we found a broken piston. There was no evidence shooting cast lead was an issue.

    The carbine operated fine until it stopped. He did not have a gas cylinder wrench with him but the piston was broken into 2 pieces. I think it was simply the piston's time to break and his shooting cast in it was only coincidental.

    ................Buckshot
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  3. #3
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    Internet legends....

  4. #4
    Boolit Master oldhickory's Avatar
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    I think it's more an ignorance of cast boolits and not knowing their guns. I've shot boolits in my carbines for over 35yrs with no gas system problems what so ever. Then again, maybe I just didn't know they were supposed to clog with lead and stop working.
    Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

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  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    No problems so far.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master


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    BS.

    I've fired thousands of plain base (ie not even a gascheck) cast bullets through my carbine (actually carbines; I used to have two) and have NEVER seen any appreciable leading of either the bore or the gas system. I own a castle wrench and I take my piston out every 200-300 rds to clean it, and have never found any lead shavings in there. In fact, there's nothing more than the ordinary carbon build up you would get with jacketed bullets anyway.

  7. #7
    Boolit Bub
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    My M1 doesn`t like cast bullits I guess that there is a burr at the hole where the gas bleeds off my piston would get stuck ,soldered if you like after about 100 rounds

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    I've come to realize that the non-casting community is largely unfamiliar with the concept of alloying lead. They equate all lead as soft and likely to to deform, distort or shave easily. A pure lead or real soft 30 caliber may do just what they predict. But how many of us would use that for an M1?
    Dutch

    "The future ain't what it used to be".
    -Yogi Berra.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    I started shooting cast bullets in an M1 carbine in 1965 when I bought my first carbine. Since then I have fired thousands of them in several carbines both GI and Commercial made. The only problem I ever had was on an Iver Johnson made carbine back in the late 70 or early 80s. The carbine had a casting welded to the barrel which held the gas piston. The housing cracked and the bolt was peening over its locking lugs. I sent it back and they put a new barrel and bolt in it and I used it for several more years until I sold it. Never had a bit of trouble with a GI. In fact I read a lot of C***P about lead in the gas piston so at first I would take the piston out every 500 rounds to see if I had lead buildup. I never found any so after a while I would only take the piston out after 2 -3 thousand rounds to clean out carbon fouling. Never did find any lead.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    i naver had a lead problem with mine.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master

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    Smile

    I'm gonna wander off the trail a little bit just to express my personal feeling of the dangers of lead boolits.
    The real danger is that they are very good at killing anything I have ever shot with them.
    Just my thoughts on the dangers of [lead] cast boolits.
    Political correctness is a national suicide pact.

    I am a sovereign individual, accountable
    only to God and my own conscience.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by bertus View Post
    My M1 doesn`t like cast bullits I guess that there is a burr at the hole where the gas bleeds off my piston would get stuck ,soldered if you like after about 100 rounds
    Could you post your load data for the problem load? Boolit type, GC of not, powder amount and type, size.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Gee, should I re-melt the carbine bullets I cast yesterday?

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy
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    Edited with website addresses given.
    When the going gets tough the tough get going!

  15. #15
    Shot many weapons in Viet Nam.
    The 30 carbine among them.
    I asked about the stopping power as I had heard WW2 vets say it was " no damn good".
    The SF Sergeant, they are all Sergeants and above, said this to me.
    The guys you heard from were just fellows that never learned to shoot accurately. They are the same same that s
    ay a .45 auto ain't any use either.
    Of course Dad taught me to shoot using g a .45 auto and a 1903 Springfield.
    He used both in North Africa in 1942.
    He never mentioned the carbine although he carried one all through the Italian campaigns as a High Speed Radio Operator.
    Anyway, I saw plenty of carbines in use by our troops and the Virtnamese.
    Even Charley Cong was caught with them and they killed some of our boys with them too.
    So the carbine sure isn't a Garand by any means.
    But it's the operator who knows his weapon who makes the difference.
    I also load and cast bullets for .25 acp and .32 acp.
    Just sayin'

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    would say most is from very soft--like pure lead. normal no2 or the like should not cause problems if the lube is good quality
    i never had any problems, but thats my 2 cents

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Pure BS. Period.
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELFEGO BACA View Post
    I found this on the ultimax website http://www.ultimak.com/default.htm and i am wondering if anyone has had problems shooting cast bullets in their m1 carbine. I am not sure how many hundreds of cast bullets i have shot with my m1 carbine but i have not noticed any problems.
    The website: http://www.ultimak.com/M6instructions.htm contains the following.

    Tip: Never use bare lead bullets in your Carbine. Though they may feed and function for a while, each lead bullet will leave a tiny shaving of lead in the gas channel. Eventually, the gas piston will jam on the lead shavings, rendering your Carbine inoperable. The only cure is to completely strip the Carbine, remove the piston, and clean out all the lead. It can be dangerous too: Since the jammed piston will not allow the op rod all the way forward, it could result in a cartridge firing "out of battery" (firing with the bolt lock lugs only partially engaged with the receiver). Use only jacketed bullets, as the Carbine was designed for them. JPHs (jacketed hollow points) will be fine as long as they feed reliably and leave no lead exposed to the bore surfaces.

    Elfego
    Steaming crock of horse crap based on my experience.


    Steve in N CA

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    Pure BS. Period.
    +1........
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master Texas by God's Avatar
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    I plan on taking 100 rounds of .30 carbine/ C309113F to shoot this weekend. If you dont hear from me- you know what happened.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check