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Thread: Help me get started with my .54 TC Renegade

  1. #21
    Boolit Grand Master pietro's Avatar
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    FWIW, I've owned several patent breech T/C caplock/sidehammer rifles over the last 40 years, and my current .54 Renegade is the 2nd .54 Renegade I've owned.

    The T/C threaded breech plugs are investment castings, as are the patent breech/tangs, and fitment can be problematic if either the inside of the patent breech recess or the outside of the breechblock plug hook has a crud buildup or a casting seam standing proud.
    Even though your breechplug appears to be tight (and therfore, safe), the gap isn't either normal or desireable, and the hook/recess should be examined under direct light and/or magnification to resolve any fitment question there.
    While not a safety issue, it can certainly be a cosmetic issue.

    The .54 issue barrel can successfully use patched round balls, unpatched T/C Maxi-Balls or Maxi-Hunters(HP's), or even saboted .45 JSP/JHP pistol bullets.

    BP substitute pellets can be hard to ignite, making loose powder a better choice in a sidehammer - AND the charge can be more easily adjusted for better accuracy (less) or better power (more).
    If your powder load of choice blows the hammer back to half-cock, you have loaded waaay too strong/heavy a powder load, and should back it down immediately.

    IIRC, if you install a T/C musket cap nipple in your Renegade, the interior end of the nipple will extend into the inside of the snail beside the patent breech and partially block flame travel until it's cut/filed off.

    I've seasoned my T/C bores with Ox-Yoke Bore Butter, also lubing my boolits with the same, ever since it was first introduced - and rarely have to perform a deep cleaning on my BP rifles.
    With the Bore Butter system, however, it's effectiveness is lost if "normal" cleaning methods or petroleum lubes are used.

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  2. #22
    Boolit Bub
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    Well, I finally got out and shot a few times. Thanks again jack19512 for the boolits!

    I only shot .530 round balls, and with the pillow ticking patches I had they seemed very hard to get started. I don't have a bullet started so maybe that was the problem. I had to use a flat head screwdriver and a wrench to beat it with I only shot maybe 3 like this and then switched to some cotton cleaning patches I had. They were much thinner than the pillow ticking and I could start them in the barrel with my thumb. Is this too loose of a fit? I was getting maybe 3" groups at 35 yards sitting on the ground resting on my knees. Of course, I didn't have a powder measure, so I used my digital scale (I know you are supposed to measure by volume) and the batteries died about halfway through. So I just eyeballed it from then on. I was using 60 grains. I've got some Lee dippers, think I'll take them next time. I shot maybe 15 times total.

    I was shooting at about 35 yards and it was shooting right about a foot. I had to move the rear sight to the left about 1/8". Could this be because of the gap at the tang? Maybe the barrel is swinging to the right just a little during recoil?

    I took the tang off to see how everything fit together. The tang had thick glue on it where it is screw on. I pulled the glue off to see what difference it made. With the glue off, the tang angled a little more downward and the gap was noticably smaller, but the wedge pin was very loose, no tension at all. I put some paper shims in place of the glue and now it is the same as it was, as far as I can tell.

    Any suggestions?

  3. #23
    Boolit Master Maven's Avatar
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    Question

    BH252, Out of curiousity, which powder were you using, Triple 7, Pyrodex RS, Goex FFg (or FFFg)? However, I don't think that's the problem since your rifle is capable of much better accuracy than you're now getting. If you do everything right, you should be able to put 5 shots touching @ 50 yds. with open sights and a rest (front & rear). Several things come to mind:

    1) You need to fix the tension on the wedge. This can be done by soldering a loop of shim brass inside the barrel tenon (where the wedge fits) or by hitting the center of the tenon with a cold chisel. The wedge should be tight enough so that you'll need to push it out with a block of wood or half of a sprung wooden clothes pin.

    2) Buy a short starter ASAP. Dixie Gun Works or Track of the Wolf are but 2 sources of these.

    3) T/C bbls. are "spec'ed" for .014" - .016" patches and in your case, a .530" dia. RB. You can go to a fabric store with a micrometer in hand and measure the 100% cotton pillow ticking they have until you find that thickness or you can purchase ready-to-use patches of that thickness from Dixie.... or Track....

    4) Are you certain that you didn't mix up the .530" and .535" RB's as a correctly fitted ball & patch should be that difficult to start?

    5) Lastly, after hunting season, I'd give serious thought to sending the rifle back to Thompson/Center for service.

    Hope this helps!

  4. #24
    Boolit Master

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    ohh the details

    Many things going on here.

    The BEST thing to do is get with someone who has some more-than-casual experience with muzzleloaders shooting roundballs, including proper cleaning techniques... someone versed only on modern inlines won't be of much help.

    Also, there is something wacky with the tang fit. That can be corrected by someone experienced in glass bedding. That barrel should fit evenly and flat down into the stock's barrel channel. The tang should mount flush and flat against the back of the breech plug/drum when hooked in. The whole unit should then fit flat and flush into the stock. It's a fairly simple job to re-do the tang inletting and glass bed it into the stock to achieve that fit. After that is done the barrel wedge fit can be adjusted to snug the barrel into the stock- either by modifying the wedge or the barrel tenon.

  5. #25
    Boolit Grand Master

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    It is a common thing for the wedge pins to fit loose. That's a easy fix. Take your wedge pin an place it on something hard and flat like a heavy piece of steel. Hit it with a hammer to bend it. You don't have to use massive force and it shouldn't take much to bend it a little. Give it a wack and try it in the gun again. If it's still too lose just give it another wack until it fits tight enough for your liking.
    As far as a measure goes you can use a piece of brass like 30.06, just fill it and weigh it and you have something to take with you in the field. If you have several diffrent sizes you will have some different weights or combos to weigh different charges in the field until you get an adjustable one.
    As far as sitting on your knees, that's not the best possition to have a stable shot. The one thing about MLs is you really have to pay attention to your shoting skills and if yo do it will roll over into your shooting of other weapons. Because of the split second hesitation that ML's have compared to smokeless firearms any bad shooting habits you have will be magnified because of the delay.
    You can make a starter real easy. Go to a craft store (or you might even have what you need at home now) and get a large wooden nob(about 2 1/2 " or so) and a piece of dowel rod that will be small enough to fit in your barrel and yet be strong enough. Drill the ball and glue a piece about 6" long in the nob. Round (concave)the end of the dowel to fit the ball. If you have the means I put a piece of brass casing over the end and rounded it to fit and that will make it stronger. If you want a short starter you can put a small piece of dowel (or brass)into the side of the nob. That's one of the great things about MLs. It can be done very cheap and gives you a chance to use your creative skills.
    Aim small, miss small!

  6. #26
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by BowHunter252 View Post
    Well, I finally got out and shot a few times. Thanks again jack19512 for the boolits!





    You are welcome. Did you happen to try the Lee REAL boolits? I don't shoot the .530 balls, I use the .535 ones. I also shot some the other day with my Lyman GPR and mine does pretty good with them. I shoot from 60 yards normally but me personally there is no way I could ever put 5 shots touching at 50 yards. Sure wish I could though.

    I can probably do about 4 inch group from 60 yards. But it is probably more my fault than anything. My eyesight is not what it use to be, that is why I have scopes mounted on just about everything I shoot much. I have found this makes a big difference with me any more. Also at least for me anyway my ML is one that I don't shoot that much and it is a very different animal than my centerfires or rimfires. Let me know how the REAL's do. I should add that I run a dry patch into the barrel after every shot when I am shooting for accuracy. Not sure if that's a good idea or not but that's what I do.

  7. #27
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    Bowhunter
    First no that gap isn't normal. I only have 7 TC's so I might be a little off but have been around them for better part of 40 years so I do have a little idea of what the fit should be.
    Second in the 54 I use a .530 round ball and pillow ticking. I have shot triple 7, prodex, real black 2F and 3F in mine and have always been able to get on target.
    Your wedge should fit with some tension, my new 50 caliber hawken didn't even when I replaced it with a new one so I just use some patching material to create my tension. and it shoots just fine.
    I would make changes one at a time, first get some tension on that wedge, then pay attention to amount of powder you are using, if using something other then real black powder get some real black powder and see what happens, If you are using 2F try 3F or if using 3F try 2F. What type of caps are you using? I use mainly Magnum anymore but do have a good supply of regular caps that I use as a sort of control if something doesn't work right.
    Make sure your sights are set right. What is the thickness of your pillow ticking mine is around .018, use a ball starter, I use bore butter all the time and like it
    That gap you have makes me wonder what caused it and I would get that fixed first before changing anything else. Mine are so tight that they almost look like one piece of metal.
    If you don't have a smith that is close or even if you do Call TC and tell them what you have and they will most likely want you to send it in to be checked, fixed or repaired.
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  8. #28
    Boolit Master Maven's Avatar
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    BH 252, If you're not entirely put off by the problems you're having with the Renegade, you may want to buy or borrow a BP reloading book. www.amazon.com has several (new & used) written by Sam Fadala, which are worth reading.

  9. #29
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maven View Post
    BH252, Out of curiousity, which powder were you using, Triple 7, Pyrodex RS, Goex FFg (or FFFg)? However, I don't think that's the problem since your rifle is capable of much better accuracy than you're now getting. If you do everything right, you should be able to put 5 shots touching @ 50 yds. with open sights and a rest (front & rear). Several things come to mind:

    1) You need to fix the tension on the wedge. This can be done by soldering a loop of shim brass inside the barrel tenon (where the wedge fits) or by hitting the center of the tenon with a cold chisel. The wedge should be tight enough so that you'll need to push it out with a block of wood or half of a sprung wooden clothes pin.

    2) Buy a short starter ASAP. Dixie Gun Works or Track of the Wolf are but 2 sources of these.

    3) T/C bbls. are "spec'ed" for .014" - .016" patches and in your case, a .530" dia. RB. You can go to a fabric store with a micrometer in hand and measure the 100% cotton pillow ticking they have until you find that thickness or you can purchase ready-to-use patches of that thickness from Dixie.... or Track....

    4) Are you certain that you didn't mix up the .530" and .535" RB's as a correctly fitted ball & patch should be that difficult to start?

    5) Lastly, after hunting season, I'd give serious thought to sending the rifle back to Thompson/Center for service.

    Hope this helps!
    I was using 777. I just did some measuring and the balls measureabout .531-.532, the pillow ticking patches that I bought were TC .018 patches, and the cotton cleaning patches were .013 - .014. These cotton patches were so much easier to seat than the pillow ticking, that I thought it might be too loose of a fit, but it looks like it might be about right. Of course the 2 cotton patches I found were totally shredded. I'm sure pillow ticking would work much better.

    Quote Originally Posted by 405 View Post
    Many things going on here.

    The BEST thing to do is get with someone who has some more-than-casual experience with muzzleloaders shooting roundballs, including proper cleaning techniques... someone versed only on modern inlines won't be of much help.

    Also, there is something wacky with the tang fit. That can be corrected by someone experienced in glass bedding. That barrel should fit evenly and flat down into the stock's barrel channel. The tang should mount flush and flat against the back of the breech plug/drum when hooked in. The whole unit should then fit flat and flush into the stock. It's a fairly simple job to re-do the tang inletting and glass bed it into the stock to achieve that fit. After that is done the barrel wedge fit can be adjusted to snug the barrel into the stock- either by modifying the wedge or the barrel tenon.
    When I take the tang out of the stock, I can press it tightly against the back of the barrel, so there is no gap. But I can pull straight back on it while it is hooked in and get a gap like the one pictured.

    To fit it correctly, would it be a good idea to, say, super glue the tang tight to the barrel, then fit that assembly into the stock?


    Quote Originally Posted by mooman76 View Post
    It is a common thing for the wedge pins to fit loose. That's a easy fix. Take your wedge pin an place it on something hard and flat like a heavy piece of steel. Hit it with a hammer to bend it. You don't have to use massive force and it shouldn't take much to bend it a little. Give it a wack and try it in the gun again. If it's still too lose just give it another wack until it fits tight enough for your liking.
    As far as a measure goes you can use a piece of brass like 30.06, just fill it and weigh it and you have something to take with you in the field. If you have several diffrent sizes you will have some different weights or combos to weigh different charges in the field until you get an adjustable one.
    As far as sitting on your knees, that's not the best possition to have a stable shot. The one thing about MLs is you really have to pay attention to your shoting skills and if yo do it will roll over into your shooting of other weapons. Because of the split second hesitation that ML's have compared to smokeless firearms any bad shooting habits you have will be magnified because of the delay.
    You can make a starter real easy. Go to a craft store (or you might even have what you need at home now) and get a large wooden nob(about 2 1/2 " or so) and a piece of dowel rod that will be small enough to fit in your barrel and yet be strong enough. Drill the ball and glue a piece about 6" long in the nob. Round (concave)the end of the dowel to fit the ball. If you have the means I put a piece of brass casing over the end and rounded it to fit and that will make it stronger. If you want a short starter you can put a small piece of dowel (or brass)into the side of the nob. That's one of the great things about MLs. It can be done very cheap and gives you a chance to use your creative skills.
    I think I will try that with the wedge pin. I know that shooting off my knees isn't the most accurate, I thought that I was getting acceptable accuracy for doing that and just eyeballing the powder charge after my scale batteries died.

    And, I don't like the sights on that gun at all. The rear sight blade is low in the middle and gets thicker toward the edges. I prefer a straight sight blade with a notch in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jack19512 View Post
    You are welcome. Did you happen to try the Lee REAL boolits? I don't shoot the .530 balls, I use the .535 ones. I also shot some the other day with my Lyman GPR and mine does pretty good with them. I shoot from 60 yards normally but me personally there is no way I could ever put 5 shots touching at 50 yards. Sure wish I could though.

    I can probably do about 4 inch group from 60 yards. But it is probably more my fault than anything. My eyesight is not what it use to be, that is why I have scopes mounted on just about everything I shoot much. I have found this makes a big difference with me any more. Also at least for me anyway my ML is one that I don't shoot that much and it is a very different animal than my centerfires or rimfires. Let me know how the REAL's do. I should add that I run a dry patch into the barrel after every shot when I am shooting for accuracy. Not sure if that's a good idea or not but that's what I do.
    Nope, didn't try any REAL boolits, it was about dark when I got done. I will let you know how they do. Should I fill the grooves with lube or what?

    Quote Originally Posted by shdwlkr View Post
    Bowhunter
    First no that gap isn't normal. I only have 7 TC's so I might be a little off but have been around them for better part of 40 years so I do have a little idea of what the fit should be.
    Second in the 54 I use a .530 round ball and pillow ticking. I have shot triple 7, prodex, real black 2F and 3F in mine and have always been able to get on target.
    Your wedge should fit with some tension, my new 50 caliber hawken didn't even when I replaced it with a new one so I just use some patching material to create my tension. and it shoots just fine.
    I would make changes one at a time, first get some tension on that wedge, then pay attention to amount of powder you are using, if using something other then real black powder get some real black powder and see what happens, If you are using 2F try 3F or if using 3F try 2F. What type of caps are you using? I use mainly Magnum anymore but do have a good supply of regular caps that I use as a sort of control if something doesn't work right.
    Make sure your sights are set right. What is the thickness of your pillow ticking mine is around .018, use a ball starter, I use bore butter all the time and like it
    That gap you have makes me wonder what caused it and I would get that fixed first before changing anything else. Mine are so tight that they almost look like one piece of metal.
    If you don't have a smith that is close or even if you do Call TC and tell them what you have and they will most likely want you to send it in to be checked, fixed or repaired.
    Thanks for the tips. My pillow ticking was .018 also, don't know why it was so hard to seat. I was using Winchester Magnum primers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maven View Post
    BH 252, If you're not entirely put off by the problems you're having with the Renegade, you may want to buy or borrow a BP reloading book. www.amazon.com has several (new & used) written by Sam Fadala, which are worth reading.
    Not put off at all Not having too many problems, mainly just that I have to move the sight way to the left. I will shoot it off a better rest next time.

  10. #30
    Boolit Master Maven's Avatar
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    "My pillow ticking was .018" also, don't know why it was so hard to seat."

    BH 252, .018" patch material (pillow ticking, denim, pocket drill) is what I now use most often, but I no longer own any T/C rifles. However, it was NOT what my T/C Cherokee (1:48 bbl.) and Hawken (1:48 bbl. +and .1:66 bbl.) preferred: .014" - .016" patching is what they shot best with [in factory bbls.]. By "best," I mean 5 shots touching @ 50 yds. from a rest using 60 grs. - 80 grs. Pyrodex RS (BP was hard to get in my area; still is). Ramming the ball home required only moderate effort too. The .018" patch + .440" RB would have been very difficult to start and seat.

    If by some quirk of fate you have a Green Mtn. replacement bbl. on your Renegade, then .018" patching is what's needed. Hope this helps!

  11. #31
    Boolit Master

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    details

    Quote "To fit it correctly, would it be a good idea to, say, super glue the tang tight to the barrel, then fit that assembly into the stock?"

    bowhunter252, kind of...exactly right idea! There are several issues to get thru here and good to know you'll hang in there. Unless the bore is "a veritable sewer pipe" or the barrel is bent that gun should shoot roundball groups of 1" at 50 yds off a decent rest.

    Think of the barrel and tang as one unit that needs to fit together. The major fit is an even, plumb rear thrust fit during recoil. If you have some patience and do-it-yourself skill you can get it to fit the stock correctly. I'd lightly tack the tang onto the barrel with some glue or even a little super glue. Place the unit into the stock and see where the misfit is in the tang area. Use something like a small dremel bit or small chisel to relieve any misfit in the wood. Then using a small dremel ball end bit roughen and lightly honeycomb the area of wood around the breech plug, tang and behind it. Get some glass bedding compound or in a pinch some JB Weld. Smooth any metal surface that would interfere with removing the unit once the compound sets up. Coat all the metal surfaces that will contact the epoxy compound with release agent or 2-3 liberal coats of JPW (wax). Be sure to get a good seal of the release agent along the seam between the plug and the tang . On the rear face where the hook from the breech goes thru the tang.... place some modeling clay or PlayDo so the compound won't ooze into that joint. Place a small plug of the clay into (or small piece of tape over) the tang screw hole in the tang and in the stock so compound won't ooze thru either hole. Some part of the area of the back face of the tang surrounding the hook should be left flat for recoil contact with the stock... that will also need release agent ..... that's part of the recoil surface.

    Set the stock in some type of cradle....even a cardboard box with U slots will work. With a small flat stick, place compound in the roughened areas to be bedded.... that includes the area surrounding the breech plug/drum and the tang. Have a paper towel with some alcohol ready to wipe up drips and excess compound. Gently lay the barrel/tang unit into the stock. Gently press down until barrel is bottomed out in the barrel channel. With the alcohol and paper towel remove excess that has oozed up around the metal. As the compound sets up a flat stick or small putty knife can be used to trim "semi" set up compound. Use some judgement as to how much compound to place into the areas to be bedded. Too much and there will be stuff running, oozing up and out all over the place. Too little and may not fill all the inletted voids completely. If the barrel is a little muzzle heavy.... rubber bands can lightly hold the whole assembly together while it sets up.

    Let set for overnight. Use a wooden block to gingerly tap barrel unit out of stock. Tap or knock the glue bond loose and remove the tang from the barrel. Clean off any excess glue, modeling clay, tape and release agent. Sand any uneven compound from stock edges. Open up tang screw holes with drill if needed. Re-assemble and proceed to set/ bend or modify barrel wedge fit. Should require light pressure or light mallet tap only for snug fit.

    Ready to shoot and work thru the loading, accuracy issues.
    Last edited by 405; 12-06-2009 at 03:15 PM.

  12. #32
    Boolit Grand Master

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    You don't have to use "pillow ticking" for patch. That's what allot of people use because it is traditional and works. Any good cotton tight weave material will work and it shouldn't be a major task to drive it down the barrel. Some ticking is thinner also. I have used allot of different materials. An old dress shirt works well and I have even used flannel. Flannel isn't the best because it isn't that strong but it will work in a pinch and because it is spongy, it loads easy.
    Aim small, miss small!

  13. #33
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    What has worked for us best in the T/C 54 is the .530 ball and .015 bore butter lubed patch. We've had mixed results with the various synthetic black subs. Stinkin FF Goex Black is the powder we keep going back too in our slow twist traditional rifles. We take a strip of cotton bed sheet and tear off a 2" square and clean between shots. You don't need to but a quick pass down the bore seems to keep things a bit more consistant. A pump of windex on the patch, sprinkle of water or my method just stick the CLEAN patch in your mouth before you make the quick jag swab.
    Don't over load a patched ball. 90 gr. of FF is my perfered charge. Over loading can cause blown patches and accuracy suffers. Learn to read recovered patches and look for burn threw. This will tell you alot about thickness and density needed.
    Happy shootin yer smoke pole

  14. #34
    Boolit Bub
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    Well, I got to shoot just a few times the other day. Probably only shot 6 or 7 times total. The REALs did good, and I may just start using them and not worry about a patch. I shot one 3 shot group at about 25 yards, and they were all touching. I'll take my chronograph out next time. Do you guys think 60 gr 777 is a powerful enough hunting load? I was shooting into a sand backstop and they mushroomed real nice. I will try to post some pics of the recovered boolits.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master

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    I shot a bit of 777 in a 58 caliber rifled musket I had, using top hat musket caps it was fine if I loaded the gun the night before and hunted the next day, but if I hunted a second day on that load it would hangfire...so after each day of hunting I would fire the load in the barrel when I got home (I can shoot in my backyard) if you cannot shoot at home you can use one of the c02 devices to unload the charge.

    If I were to want to hunt with 777 in another side lock, especially one using #11 caps I would use say 10 grains of real BP as a booster charge for the 777, this is a safe practice and hodgon recommends doing just that with flint locks.

    Hogdon does show data for 777 and a patched round ball in a 54 caliber....

    http://www.hodgdon.com/ml-warning.html

    60 grains bulk measure may be a bit on the weak side because they only show 80.90,100, and 120 grain loadings.

    NOTE: the loads shown are for bulk measure, IE do NOT use 80,90,100, or 120 grains of 777 by WEIGHT. 77 grains by weight of 777 is equal to 100 grains of BP bulk measure.

    Download and read the data for yourself but all the conicals in 54 caliber seem to use either 100 or 120 grains of 777 bulk measure.

    Bill
    Last edited by Willbird; 12-29-2009 at 05:59 PM.
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  16. #36
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    I have 2 Renegades in 54 cal and both have the 1 in 48 twist. Haven't found a decent RB load for them but they both LOVE the great plains boolit ahead of 95gr of Pyrodex. I have tried lso some of the sabots with 45cal boolits and they shot allright but not as accurate as the Great Plains.
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  17. #37
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    Get an empty .410 shell to use as a powder measure. It will hold enough to make you happy, and can easily be cut down to a "favorite" charge, and if you loose it, it's no big deal.
    Tom
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check