-Your accuracy with PP !

[Don McDowell]

Yesterday was the pits with the wind. Wasn't bad around noon. Got my 243 fitted with another scope after the inside lenses on the other one started floating around.
Today was nice.
Missed seeing your dad in Cheyenne this past week tell him congrats on the WP award .

Looking forward to the Dora reports..

[303Guy]

... as that little column compresses it pulles the paper down a tad on some.

That might depend on how much sizing is taking place. If essencially only the paper is being sized there shouldn't be any paper slippage. Maybe your prime castings are too smooth!

Anyway, to find out I took 'cast boolit' that I had single wrap patched and shoved it into my prime casting sizer die. Now this die produces a core with the nose section small enough to patch up to bore diameter and the rear section patches up to over groove diameter. Now this single wrapped boolit was an unsized core ie a normal, smooth sided cast boolit so the it was large. There was a little patch slipping on one side of the nose section and the paper did seem to extrude over the base a little. But, the lead core would have been 'drawn' some by the extent of the sizing. So, I would say that for normal sizing there shouldn't be any paper slip.

I'll reform this same test sample and patch it as a normal sized core and repeat the test and see what happens.

[303Guy]

OK, so I repatched and resized the test boolit. Much to my surprize, the patched boolit would not go all the way into the die! So I ejected it, took a pic and tried a few times more with nose reforming in between. Eventually, I got it all the way into the die and took another pic of it.

Here is the whole sequence;

Sized PP boolit.
The other side of it.
One can see how the patched moved on the one side.

The bare core.
Turns out I had knurled this one. This one shows where the patched slipped.

Mashed back into shape and sized.

Repatched (Note how the 'ends meet').

Partially sized.

Fully sized.

So, firstly, it seems that sizing and swaging lead alloy actually hardens it!

As difficult as it was to size down the repatched and reformed boolit, even though it was smaller after core sizing, the patch did not move. A curiosity here is that the reformed boolit was quite smooth and still had lube on it from the swaging and sizing process. Not visible in the pic is the lead smear removed from the die by the patch surface during sizing! There was actually a shiny spot of lead on the patch which I removed with a finger nail.

I'm not sure how one would interpret these results but I would suggest that it's possible to patch in a way that prevents the patch from slipping during sizing or seating into a sized case neck.

[303Guy]

More pics and results.

The repatched and sized boolit core.

The unravelled patch.

The curious thing is that these patches are normally quite difficult to remove from the core but after sizing like that the patch didn't take much to just unravel.

Patch thicknesses;
fresh paper 0.07mm (.0028"); inner wrap 0.06mm (.0024"); outer wrap 0.05mm (.002").

This leads me to wonder whether sizing the patched boolit actually assists with the releasing of the patch on exiting the muzzle? (If so then sizing the patch boolit can only be beneficial!)

Another curious thing - see how the original spiral impressions from the original core have imprinted on the repatch even though these are not visible on the reformed core!

[405]

Thanks for posting thoughts and pics of the process. Interesting looking bullets you're shooting there. I use bullets that start out at a diameter that once patched they have met my objective so I don't size them after patching. I know some here do to get their final bullet diameter down to the smaller, objective (better) diameter. I can see where sizing the PP bullet would release any bond that exists between bullet and patch. In the end, the real question would be, does it help accuracy?

I'll have to try it sometime but have my doubts about how much can be done without hurting accuracy... I'd think at some point, sizing would start distortng the bullet itself. Taking a PP down from say .452-3 to .450 may be OK?

[redneckdan]

At 50yds prone with a sling.

CZ-550 in .375 H&H NEI 375-304 sized down to .369" and wrapped twice with tracing paper and lubed with JPW. Powder charge is 22.5gr of Blue Dot over a standard rifle primer.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

50 yards?

Ok Just what does that tell you? Not much in my book. I dont mean to offend but thats pretty much usless Data for anyone, shooting smokless to BP.

Group is what .630 to .70 or so give or take say 1.2 to 1.3 MOA?

The below group was shot at 200 yards, in a steady 4-5 Mph Tail wind.

Black Powder 45-110 518 gr PP bullet.

The Load has yielded a 96-4X at 800 yards in a National Match at Raton NM 2008.
Also won the 800 yard Match at Phoenix this year against all comers Day two Winter nationals 93-4X, Score is a mater of record. Had me tied in a 3way tie after 900 for First place that day, I won Expert Class and was Scope champion for the Match.

Set a world Record (now Beat) of 1.336 inches at 200 yards at Raton in 2007.

Shoot that load at 200 yards then show us how accurate it is based on what I am seeing looks to be a 3.75 to almost 4 inch group at 200 yards.

I currently do not own a rifle that shoots that bad.


And Again its no offense, I own 3 CZ rifles my 6.5x55 FS Lux runs 1/2 inch at 100 and my 22 Hornet runs around .6 inch at 100 yards at 200 both shoot every day under a 3/4 MOA Group. My 22 mag I do test at 50 yards to find the best ammo and it shoots coverleafs that run less then the 2's .2 inch with iron sights.

Please, then we have some real world Data to compare too.

Get rid of the twisted tails and I bet your accuracy will improve.

KW

The Lunger

[303Guy]

Aah, but Kenny , do remember that most of us are mere mortals who can only dream of such achievements! (But it is great to be able to 'chat' with you masters!)
As a beginner I can only say that the chances of a decent 200yd group can only exist if one can first get them to group at 50. But I take on board what you are saying. I had some 'promising' results at about 40yds that went south at 180yds! (And did they only go South!) If I had time I would repeat what I did to try to discover what caused the failure. As it is, I can only speculate.

P.S. It looks like that 'steady' tail wind wasn't all that steady!

[redneckdan]

50 yards?

Seeing as how I usually don't get done with class and work til sometime after 10pm most days, I'm limited to the 25yds availible to me indoors, especially if I am doing chronograph work.

This time I got home with about 30 minutes of day light to spare so I went just down the road to the nearest mine tailings dump, that has just over 50yds availible.

Shoot that load at 200 yards then show us how accurate it is based on what I am seeing looks to be a 3.75 to almost 4 inch group at 200 yards.

The OP asked what kind of results people were getting, I posted up pictures of what I am getting.

Thats all I'm after right now. Considering your predictions, this load should be minute of elk out to 450-500yds....though 1700fps is a mite slow for such long shots.

Someday I'd like to have the luxury of enough time to screw around milking the last tenth of an inch from a cartridge/rifle combination, but I don't have that kind of time right now.

[montana_charlie]

Thats all I'm after right now. Considering your predictions, this load should be minute of elk out to 450-500yds...

Speaking of '50-yard groups' as a topic of conversation...and not directed toward redneckdan.

A smoothbore musket might be capable of dependable head shots at fifty yards.
At 75 or 100, it might be able to hit a man-sized target reliably. But, at 400-500, it would probably be doing well to hit a troop formation...three times out of five.

A small fifty yard group from a rifle can be worth bragging about.
If the shooter was lucky to keep five shots on a grocery bag when he started development...and worked his way down to a silver dollar group, he can't be blamed for patting himself on the back.

But, he still needs to find out if the load holds up at 'real rifle distances' before he assumes he might see minute of elk at 400...or even 200.

An analogy...
When a guy spends a lot of time putting a fresh edge on his favorite firewood axe, he may feel like it's ready for the woods. But, he doesn't learn much about the quality of his edge if he tests the tool on a handy chunk of balsa wood.

CM

[barrabruce]

I doubt if I could shoot that smaller groups that the Experts post here with a "laser"
At those long distances.

The wind /mirage drop and all that technical stuff.

I'm more of a hunter type shooter and try practice more shootin style than actually bench rest styles.

50 yrds can be a long way to see in the dense scrub.
Plenty if you are a good hunter/stalker


Mind you I'm just saying that to justify my inadequacy to get bug hole groups and to reasure my battered ego when I am tickled if I have a nice smuttering that coulda filled the freezer or put the real hurt on something.
Sometimes just scaring a empty coke can at 200 yrds is the highlight of my day out.

Barra
Slinking back under the cover of the snags now and peeking out.

[725]

Way to go redneckdan! I'm impressed with a realman rifle sling prone shot like yours. Keep up the good work. I'm too old and fat to wiggle down into the classic rifleman's, unsupported position anymore. Shows good skills at both shooting and loading. Sad to say, I'm just either a standing off-hand sling shooter or on a bad day, a bench supported & sand bagged rifle banger.

[Zeek]

I, too, prefer doing most of my workups at 50 yards. My rifle range gets a way-squirrelly wind beginning around 1 pm most days, and it plays hell with discerning actual load performance if your target is at 100 yards. However, at 50 yards, good loads make small groups and poor loads can seldom fool you. That's good enough for me.
Regards, Zeek

[Digital Dan]

I think Mr. Wasserburgers' point may not have been seen by some. I will, in my feeble way, try to help.

50 yard accuracy is useful at that range, but says nothing about long range potential, or even at mid range. I zero one of my rifles at 10 yards and use it regularly at that range, +/- a yard or two. It shoots bug holes there, 1/2" at fifty yards and I'm clueless beyond that distance. I don't concern myself that it is not a long distance piece or speculate about that element...ever. It has NO potential at long range...period. Doubt it would shoot a 6" group at 100 yards to tell the truth. However, it is very hard on wild hogs in the swamps and close timber. That Hoot & Holler load would do the same.

Mr. Wasserburger is mortal too, but applies proven techniques to his patch work and offers tips free of charge. Twisted tails....not for long range work, whether you like it or not. Solution is simple, regardless of your available time: Don't twist tails. Adjust your patch size accordingly and fold the short skirt over the base. It works for both smokeless and BP loads. You might be surprised how easy it is to do this once it's tried...not requiring more time than currently necessary. Wet a patch with water and let it dry on a bullet...have faith....you won't need glue. I promise. Match your bullet size to the bore dimensions and likewise your paper choice, you'll be amazed at how simple this stuff gets and how effective it becomes. Avoid sizing when you can and especially if you require LR accuracy. Especially avoid a lot of dimensional change when you have to size. Bullet distortion is fatal to long range accuracy. Above all, spend a little time thinking about what you wish to accomplish. The formula has already been worked out, 99.9% of the time.

Keep another point in mind about smokeless vs. BP paper patch. Although there are many exceptions, BP cartridges are generally straight wall designs. Most smokeless cartridge cases are bottle neck designs. Both can be loaded effectively with paper patch, but they do not cross over well with different types of powder. Not saying it can't be done, just that it's not always going to be your happiest day. Recall my comment above about Pope and his rifles? He paper patched and shot some very small groups with smokeless out around 200 yards. Can still be done today if you don't wander too far off the beaten path.

Lesson there is this: Odds against anyone coming up with an idea that has not been tried is nil. Look at what works and invest your time there, unless you like learning curves with a very shallow slope. Thinking this is a good site, I enjoy it a lot. Good people all around. It is a good source of information and I'd urge those prone to debate against proven methodology to reconsider their motivation. No harm in trying to reinvent the wheel, but one should understand the effort will likely be folly.

Dull Dan

[303Guy]

I thought that to be a well worded and wise post, Digital Dan.

I must confess I like to go off the beaten track a bit just for the view!
I also like to try to find that beaten track without a map at times - remember how our kids used to say to us, "Don't show me I want to do it"?

You might be surprised how easy it is to do this once it's tried...

True!

Wet a patch with water and let it dry on a bullet...have faith....you won't need glue. I promise

Mmm .... I struggled for a while and found I needed a dab of glue on the tail corner. I found I couldn't run the paper through the printer - it went skew, wouldn't feed, ripped and twisted in the printer and jammed it up.

Then my son used that pad for writing his notes so I got another one. Different make of paper and suddently I can print it and wet 'roll crimp' the skirt and don't need glue!

Sometimes we should actually blame the tools!
It was the paper all along!

[montana_charlie]

It was the paper all along!

You may have been rolling with the grain...instead of across it.
CM

[303Guy]

You may have been rolling with the grain...instead of across it.

Quite possible. I just ran a test and the a cut lengthways on the sheet simply lost its skirt when I tried to 'fold crimp' it. This was with an A4 sheet that came from the pad that wouln't feed in the printer reliably. I next cut a patch from the paper that seemd to need glue - A5 notepad. I changed the direction of cut. This paper took longer to wet and the tail corner took more 'ironing' with the plastic ruller to stay stuck down but otherwise the skirt 'fold crimped' just fine. So it seems the A5 pad has the grain at right angles to A4 pads. I was not using the 'ironing' with a ruler trick at the time I thought glue was needed.

So, two lessons;
One - make sure of the grain direction and don't just assume it runs lengthways on the page!
Two - think ouside the circle!

[montana_charlie]

Twisted tails....not for long range work, whether you like it or not. Solution is simple, regardless of your available time: Don't twist tails. Adjust your patch size accordingly and fold the short skirt over the base.

I read that while realizing qite a few (here) are twisting tails.
If you get the results you want...at the range you shoot...there may be no inclination to change.

But, a guy on another forum just postd pictures of his 'first attempt', and showed some of his patch particles...and some of his bullets. I grabbed the 'bullets' to stick into this conversation.

We all (most, anyway) agree that a good bullet base is necessary for good accuracy. Anything that compromises the base is going to have an aerodynamic effect. Enough distortion will show at short range, but small amounts can cause long range 'fliers'.

This shows the imprint made by folding the patch over the base. Unless you have recovered examples to look at, you just have to imagine the 'damage' done by a twisted tail mashed into a
flat-based bullet.
CM

[Digital Dan]

Charlie,

That my friend is a very telling photo, thanks. I do agree with your thoughts twisted tails...if they work don't fix it. If I was not clear on my views; rise first to the level required. When you strive to extend your reach these fine points that influence external ballistics will become apparent. Sometimes, stuff happens I have no answer for....leaving my wife equally speechless. Try it if you want, mebbe it'll tickle your fancy!

[Zeek]

Well, I just happen to have pic of a five shot group fired by windrider with a paper patched 22 centrefire at 100yds. Here it is.

Not too shabby!

Would you please give all the specifics for that 22 centerfire PPCBoo load, including CBoo alloy, cartridge (not caliber!), loaded LOA, CB name/#, rifle make, MV, powder & charge, etc.?
Thanks! This is the first time that I have seen evidence that such performance is possible from 22 centerfire cartridges.
Bless you,
Zeek