Ahh,
That would be me.
KW
The Lunger
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Ahh,
That would be me.
KW
The Lunger
Well, I'd like to thank you for putting that gathering together. Inspiring on many levels. ...........and nice to meet you, even in a round about way.
Dan
I have danced with the Devil. She had excellent attorneys.
Hallo Digital Dan.
-So VERY impressive shooting at that distance!
(-Even Mike Quickley in the movie "Quickley down under" can't match that,- I think !)
1. DID you mention ballistics for us ? (-Your caliber, bullet weight, Velocity?)
2. Dan,- do you, or any other of you people, have an idea of penetration-power of the bullet at 1609 meters ?
-It'd be facinating to know!
Thanks to ALL of you for enlightening me of the accuracy potential of PP bullets !
Chr.
Well, I just happen to have pic of a five shot group fired by windrider with a paper patched 22 centrefire at 100yds. Here it is.
Not too shabby!
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
I only shoot PP over black so have no info on smokeless. I shoot most PPs in either a 45-70 Shiloh or 45-110 C. Sharps with globe front and tang aperture rear. I swage bullets ranging in weight from about 400 grains to about 530 grains and paper is cotton. I use FFg Goex with two .030 wads and swab between shots.
Here's four 45-110 targets from the last year or so while tinkering with small changes in load specs. Targets shot at 75 yds. Upper left target is ten shots, the rest are five shots.
Last edited by 405; 07-21-2010 at 08:17 PM.
Dang! That's fine shooting! (The whole package - right from casting the primes!)
christian, does that 'adequately' answer your question?
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
Hallo 303 Guy.
Yes,- this DOES answer my question regarding PP accuracy!
Chr.
christian,
Yes they can be accurate. Everthing has to be just right. KW and the folks who shoot competition and do a lot of long range experimenting really push the limit with BP and paper patch. Not only do they have to have the best possible bench rest type, tiny group accuracy--- those bullet have to remain stable with the best possible ballistic efficiency and keep the smallest velocity standard deviations all the way out to those extreme distances. That type shooting is the most demanding of all! Think about even a 5-10 swirling breeze!
Interesing to me that I can get the smallest groups with the PP loads but when averaging all groups shot, using the same guns and set up, the average group size for all gas checked/grease groove/smokeless targets are slightly smaller than all paper patch/blackpowder targets. Loading paper patch maybe less forgiving of smaller variations in load technique?? For the shooting I do with these guns/loads I know it works out to 500 yards with the same trends for groups size. I don't know about 1000+.
It is one more place to make a mistake. It also allows to fix minor imperfections. If everything is done right the bullet can be improved.
With smokeless it also allows for a velocity increase, which decreases drop and wind drift at a given distance. The big thing for me is it allows for the downrange bullet performance with a higher velocity.
In short it is another tool, not a cure all.
The man who invented the plow was not bored. He was hungry.
Hello Christian,Originally Posted by christian
I was not there at the 1 mile shoot, just have an interest in the endeavor and copy of those photos. I do paper patch a fair bit but most of my use is for hunting. Such loads are giant killers if properly constructed. I would not judge one way or another whether or not PP gives superior accuracy to GG bullets. You can get higher velocity with softer alloys and cleaner aerodynamic form, which provides ballistic advantage.
Mr. Wasserburger was the instigator as I recall and he could probably write a book or three on the pastime if not busy shooting. I have one remaining photo that might answer one of your questions. They won't penetrate steel, but I wouldn't want to try stopping one with my torso. I'm guessing here but think the prevailing caliber at that match was .45. Beyond that I'm clueless.
I have danced with the Devil. She had excellent attorneys.
A high velocity cast boolit will penetrate steel just fine! I think the softer alloy will expand a little more than a J-word, making a slightly bigger hole and will stop penetrating at velocities a little higher than a J-word would as the range increases. Above a certain velocity, the punch through becomes indistinguishable. Niether cast nor jacketed behave the same as armour piercing projectiles. It was a long time ago that I played around with steel penetration and I don't remember the details. I didn't do any kind of tests, just playing around.
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
I shoot steel on a regular basis! This is 3/8" mild steel and those are ten shots from 1000 yards with a 700+ gr. bullet from a .50/90! All they do is splatter and from 100 yards the same thing...no penetration with alloy of 1-16. I don't shoot on 1/4" as all that does is warp the plate....NO PENETRATION!! Maybe 1/8" it might go on through but I doubt it!!
"The South died with Stonewall Jackson!"
A soft boolit striking a large steel plate at moderate to low velocity is going to make a lot of noise as the plate absorbs the shock elastically. I have done steel penetration tests with J-words and my hornet and a piece of steel has to be very rigidly supported to allow penetration. A small enough piece of 3/8" steel would bend as well as deform at the point of impact. The impact velocity has to be high enough for the point pressure to cause the steel to rupture before the general mass moves in the direction of impact. I have seen a small piece of 5/8" steel standing on edge being struck by a 300 Win Mag bullet and not fall over! It did wobble a little. A 22LR boolit strike would have sent it flying with zero surface damage. What happens on impact is actually quite complex!
P.S. Those 1000yd groups never fail to wow me! There are multiple high level skills involved in achieving those! I can imagine each component of each round being made and assembled and eventually aimed and fired with such care and precision and skill! Beautiful!
Those pics liven up my day!
Last edited by 303Guy; 11-21-2009 at 12:11 AM.
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
Dont you find that if you size with a paper tuff on the end the paper pulls back off the ogive on some?
No, The sizing die I use is Lee Push Thru.
It flattens the remnants of the tail into a nicely compressed paper pillar on the bottom of the casting.
I have 50 that I haven't loaded for over six months, the paper hasn't unravelled, the base has not decompressed.
So far so good.
These groups were fired last weekend at 200 yards, at the local gun Club.
I find anything less then 200 yards gives you no real clue to accuracy, 75 or 100 yard shooting is not a very good indicator of True Accuracy in my opinion. And no offense to the guys that play at the shorter ranges but if you really want to see if your PP loads are up to snuff. Try em at 200 yards. Invest in a good rest. I have a very good portable Bench Also, made by Royal Stucky, you can google him, they are not Cheap nor is anything of exceptional Quality, Royal makes his Benches over in Powell Wyoming these days.
These groups were actually shot off bench rest Cross sticks my 25 Lb Bull Barrel Shiloh, "DORA"
This sort of accuracy however does not come overnight or easy, there is no free lunch in this game. However these loads are pretty well proven, I was planing on further testing at 1000 yards this weekend but windy conditions plus my working very late Friday night nixed my plans.
This is the Wasserburger .444 Diam PP Money Mould now offered by BACO. Patched to .495-.450 or there abouts. Paper is Seth Cole Tracing paper 8#. Bullet is cast of 1-20 alloy from John Walters, a very good friend of mine.
Rifle is chambered in 45-110 aka the 45-2-7/8ths Sharps cartridge.
Brass:
Norma Case FL sized and annealed chamfered with a 11 deg Jones Chamfer tool.
Primers:
WLR old white box primers with a primer wad inside the case.
Powder:
Charge is 110 Grs of Fg Goex Express compressed about .385.
Wads (3)
A .060 Veg Fiber wad is used to compress the charge with a compression die.
next a .060 poly wad is insertred on top of the veg fiber wad after compression, lastly comes a .091 Cork wad to top off the wad stack.
Patched bullet is inserted .420 into the case.
So Far the only real good test run at 1000 yards was done with Donnie (ranch 13) spotting for me at Alliance Neb back in August.
Accuracy wasto say the least. Roughly 8 shots into a 10 inch or so circle.
KW
The Lunger
I do the exact same but find that as that little column compresses it pulles the paper down a tad on some. Not much, but some
Kenny did you make it down to the ranch for the longrange testing this weekend?
I'm pretty anxiuos to see what you an ol Dora can do once you two get used to each other.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
Don,
I did not, I got home from work 7pm friday night was pretty beat. Woke up at 6 am wind blowing like hell here and checked with the folks, and in Newcastle same story. Stayed home went to the gun show and finished up a bunch of 6.5x55 ammo for myself and brother and nephew, son-inlaw and Daughter. We have quite a few of these rifles in the family now. Gona try while down for Turkey Day.
Dora continues to amaze me, it still requires a tight grip and good hold but recoil is almost nil. Great Rifle and man with proper brass and these .444 bullets sure seem to do quite well.
Fouling control is the real key though I am thinking.
Will Keep you informed.
KW
The Lunger
Doesn't the wind always blow everywhere in Wyoming?
We need somebody/something to keep the government (cops and bureaucrats too) HONEST (by non government oversight).
Every "freedom" (latitude) given to government is a loophole in the rule of law. Every loophole in the rule of law is another hole in our freedom. When they even obey the law that is. Too often government seems to feel itself above the law.
We forgot to take out the trash in 2012, but 2016 was a charm! YESSS!
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