44-40 +p?

[john.k]

Short answer is no...........but if you were keen,its possible to slip a thin sleeve over the case to increase the base dia .which is done to form some odd caliber cases for old guns....definitely a "Dont do this at home ,viewers"

[Savvy Jack]

So I’m going to wonder a little off topic here, but was wondering if fire forming 44mag brass into 44-40 is doable. I know that the rim is 0.011 smaller than 44x40, but I imagine that won’t make too much difference on extraction. All other dimensions are not that far off, the Lyman manual says they is only .020 different in length. The reason I ask is my local store dose not carry it, but stocks 44mag. when I order things it takes months for the owner to make the order, and he forgets sometimes as well. If I order it from the city, it costs me almost as much to ship it as the bag of brass dose. Advice here would be much appreciated as I would hate to ruin one of my nice firearms doing something foolhardy.

I will let Ed or one of the other guys answer in detail but for a quick answer, NO

The base of the 44 Magnum is smaller in diameter than the 44-40. If you use the 44 Mag it will expand at the base and could cause a problem. The case is shorter than the 44-40 so suggested loads from manuals may create more pressures.

Since I have this 1 1/4" diameter "testing" barrel...I too have been temped and this just might get me to try a few.

[Cast_outlaw]

Sounds like a job for a guy with a test barrel, and pressure trace system. With only .012 differences in base, and .010 on the rim, and on my Calliper my mag case read 1.282 and a 44-40 case measured 1.293 a difference of .011 in length. So if you were carful with the seating depth, and loaded up from starting data for group one actions. I imagine it would work fine, and end up with stronger brass. but that’s just MHO and savvy jack you have the gear to confirm or disprove this crazy Canuck

[john.k]

Yep.....012"...taint but a whisker.......now put your face 8" away from where an undersize case is holding back at least 10,000psi.........yep,sounds like a bit more now...........the most likely outcome is gas blowback around the case,making you look like a Chinese panda..........a one eyed one.....

[Savvy Jack]

If you don't hear from me by noon, send out the posse!!!

I loaded up two cartridges using resized 44 Mag WW Super cases in an RCBS 44-40 resizing die.. The WW Super cases are thicker, I think...than the Starline 44-40 cases. The cases are shorter and I did not want to re-adjust my RCBS seating die so I had to use the Redding 44-40 Profile crimp die. It really put a tight squeezing crimp on it so it would fit in the tight chamber of the MGM barrel. I also used a .429 43-215C lead bullet, that plus the deeper seating depth due to the shorter case length and the tight "crimp" could make for interesting results. I did use only CCI-300 primers and 16.5gr of IMR-4227.

[Outpost75]

So I’m going to wonder a little off topic here, but was wondering if fire forming 44mag brass into 44-40 is doable. I know that the rim is 0.011 smaller than 44x40, but I imagine that won’t make too much difference on extraction. All other dimensions are not that far off, the Lyman manual says they is only .020 different in length. The reason I ask is my local store dose not carry it, but stocks 44mag. when I order things it takes months for the owner to make the order, and he forgets sometimes as well. If I order it from the city, it costs me almost as much to ship it as the bag of brass dose. Advice here would be much appreciated as I would hate to ruin one of my nice firearms doing something foolhardy.

.44 Magnum brass has quite a bit greater wall thickness at the mouth and would result in a cartridge too large in diameter to chamber unless you turned the mouths thinner to fit into the chamber neck.

[Jedman]

So I’m going to wonder a little off topic here, but was wondering if fire forming 44mag brass into 44-40 is doable. I know that the rim is 0.011 smaller than 44x40, but I imagine that won’t make too much difference on extraction. All other dimensions are not that far off, the Lyman manual says they is only .020 different in length. The reason I ask is my local store dose not carry it, but stocks 44mag. when I order things it takes months for the owner to make the order, and he forgets sometimes as well. If I order it from the city, it costs me almost as much to ship it as the bag of brass dose. Advice here would be much appreciated as I would hate to ruin one of my nice firearms doing something foolhardy.

It's not the rim diameter that is a little different it is the head diameter. Using 44 mag brass in a 44-40 chamber you could have problems, at least a buldged case to a possible case head separation.

Jedman

[Savvy Jack]

.44 Magnum brass has quite a bit greater wall thickness at the mouth and would result in a cartridge too large in diameter to chamber unless you turned the mouths thinner to fit into the chamber neck.

Yeap, I could not get them to chamber all the way in the MGM barrel at the range. I thought they would work but I should have tried inserting the firing pin thingamabob in the shop! That last little bit just wouldn't go!!!

I did get some great results with some other stuff though.

[john.k]

Both my 44/40 s have chamber necks so tight that .429" bullets thumb seat securely in fired cases.....

[Savvy Jack]

Sorry Hootmix, I somehow missed you post but Outpost75 nailed it!! Unless you understand at any point you could hurt or damage things, stick with the published loads.

If my numbers are correct........
Today I spent the morning at the range again shooting Goex FFFG and Reloder 7. I am getting consistent 1,300fps/12,000psi with 40Gr/v Goex FFG in semi-baloonhead cases. I am getting consistent 1,300fps/12,000psi with a caseload of Reloder 7 and a 200/217gr lead bullet of the 427098 design. Accurecy with both are consistent 4" groups @ 100 yards.

UPDATE 2/16/2019

If my numbers are correct....

Today I tested, for the second time, a case-load of Reloder 7 that resulted in a great, safe. load for both my revolvers and rifles.


26.5gr Reloder 7 (case capacity, no compression)
Accurate Mold 43-208A (bullet sits firmly on top of powder)

CCI 300 Primers
Starline Brass (reloaded countless times with high pressure loads)



10 shot tests

MGM Testing Barrel (scoped)
Strain Gauge
4" group @ 100 yards
1,382fps @ 11,304psi
50Deg F, Outside Air Temp
​

Uberti Winchester 73' (no scope)
4" group @ 25 yards
Consistently hit the gong @ 265 yards
1,388fps
​

Uberti "Cattleman" 5 1/2" barrel
um, well...need to revisit
Several gong hits @ 265 yards
952fps

https://curtisshawk21.wixsite.com/44...fles-companion

Attachment 236161
Uberti Cattleman 5 1/2" barrel

Attachment 236162
I was very surprised at how clean the old 1800's unheadstamped brass was after shooting. The brass stayed bright and shinny unlike modern brass that turns dark.

[Savvy Jack]

Both my 44/40 s have chamber necks so tight that .429" bullets thumb seat securely in fired cases.....

As they should be if the chamber is cut for .429 bullets. "Tight" in most of our conversations, typically refers to original 44-40 specs to accommodate Winchester factory .425 JSP bullets to which a .429 will not chamber...especially with thicker Remington brass.

[Outpost75]

As they should be if the chamber is cut for .429 bullets. "Tight" in most of our conversations, typically refers to original 44-40 specs to accommodate Winchester factory .425 JSP bullets to which a .429 will not chamber...especially with thicker Remington brass.

My Ruger original Vaquero .44-40 came with a .429" barrel and a cylinder having a .444 neck diameter and .426 cylinder throats. It shot jacketed factory OK, but not lead.

My S&W 544 Texas Commemorative also has a .429 barrel, but the cylinder has .4285" cylinder throats AND the chamber necks are .447" so that you can load .429 jacketed or .430 lead bullets in Starline or Remington .44-40 brass and the revolver shoots like a house on fire!

John Taylor rechambered my Ruger Vaquero cylinder and also made for me a custom .44-40 cylinder to fit my .44 Magnum Ruger Super Blackhawk. He also ftted a Numrich Marlin 1894 .44-40 barrel to my H&R .44 shotgun frame and chambered them all with the same reamer, so that all of the guns interchange brass and can be loaded with the same die adjustments. Neck diameter of the chambers is .447 and cylinder throats are .4305" and I size bullets .430". Hornady .430 XTP jacketed bullets in 180- and 200-grain weights shoot wonderfully in both rifle and revolver with a case full of RL7 or 4198.

My Marlin 1894S from the 1993 run and Interarms Rossi '92 clone in .44-40 both have .448" chamber necks and .430" barrel groove diameter.

IN ALL OF THESE GUNS I use Accurate 43-230G cast 1 to 30 tin-lead from Roto Metals with 24.5 grains of RL7, 22 grs. of IMR4198, or 7.2 grains of Bullseye. These loads are +P and not for Winchester 1873 clones for Colt SAs.

Attachment 252039

[Savvy Jack]

The 43-230G appears to be one I have yet to run through the MGM barrel. I shall do that next weekend!!

[Savvy Jack]

Loaded up some 230G's with 26.5gr of Reloder 7. Cases capacity with the base of the bullet sitting firm on top of the powder.

Starline Brass
CCI-300 primers
1.297 case length
1.600 AOL

bullets resized to .429
230gr
length .650
seating depth .340

I'll give them a shot next weekend.

[Savvy Jack]

Loaded up some 230G's with 26.5gr of Reloder 7. Cases capacity with the base of the bullet sitting firm on top of the powder.

Starline Brass
CCI-300 primers
1.297 case length
1.600 AOL

bullets resized to .429
230gr
length .650
seating depth .340

I'll give them a shot next weekend.

Somehow I forgot about this post. I did try that load.
Attachment 252009
Attachment 252010

https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...essure-testing

[Outpost75]

Savvy Jack.

Sure would appreciate if you could fire pressure for charge establishment Group 1 vs. Group 2 with 6.0, 6.5, 7.0, 7.2 of Bullseye with 43-230G. If you need bullets I can cast and send to you, but I think you may have gotten the mold... Lots of folks did.

In my 1905 Colt SA and 1920 New Service I have standardized on 6 grains of Bullseye wth my new Accurate 43-206H which looks like 425423 which shrunk in the washing machine and is a near exact approximation, I am sure low pressure, nearly duplicating factory smokeless loads, and the load shoots to the sights for COlt SA, New Service and El Tigre carbine likes it too, smooth feeding in the levers.

This has become my go-to, do everything bullet for .44 Russian, .44 Special, .44-40

Attachment 252040Attachment 252041Attachment 252042Attachment 252043

[Savvy Jack]

Savvy Jack.

Sure would appreciate if you could fire pressure for charge establishment Group 1 vs. Group 2 with 6.0, 6.5, 7.0, 7.2 of Bullseye with 43-230G. If you need bullets I can cast and send to you, but I think you may have gotten the mold... Lots of folks did.

In my 1905 Colt SA and 1920 New Service I have standardized on 6 grains of Bullseye wth my new Accurate 43-206H which looks like 425423 which shrunk in the washing machine and is a near exact approximation, I am sure low pressure, nearly duplicating factory smokeless loads, and the load shoots to the sights for COlt SA, New Service and El Tigre carbine likes it too, smooth feeding in the levers.

This has become my go-to, do everything bullet for .44 Russian, .44 Special, .44-40

Attachment 252011Attachment 252012Attachment 252013Attachment 252014

Yeah that was one of my lasts tests last year. I didn't get the mold and that was from a batch you sent me. I need to send the PTII back to Jim and get him to reset it again (lost the wifi/bluetooth again) plus I need some more strain gauges. I don't know if I will be able to get that going again for a while due to the cost. I am also "recovering" from physical bodily damage from the wife from the custom barrel I got for the CB. I shot it last weekend and the accuracy is the same as a factory barrel. I am hoping it will get more accurate as it gets broke in but even if it doesn't, it still shoot great.

[Larry Gibson]

Outpost75

It appears you've got 4 "attachments there that are connected together. Comes up "invalid attachment". Can you separate them?

Also, while I don't have a 44-40 test barrel I have a 44 Magnum test barrel. The 44 Magnum case, with the same bullet seated to the same depth, will have about 90 - 93% of the case capacity of the 44-40. I can use my Ruger OM Vaquero 44-40cylinder in my BHFT 44 magnum also as it fits perfectly with almost identical barrel/cylinder gap. The Stainless Vaquero 44-40 cylinder throats are .429 (pinned) so the same bullet and loads can be loaded in both. With the same load in both cartridges the 44-40 velocities run about 93 - 95% of the same loads in 44 magnum cases (Winchester cases for both). Given its the same revolver/barrel except for the Cylinder/cartridge that tells me the pressure, given the same load in each cartridge, is less in the larger capacity 44-40 case [that only makes sense]. Thus I pressure test loads in the 44 Magnum and interpolate the same load in the 44-40 will give about 90 - 95% of the same psi.

I could pressure test the Lee 429-200-RF, the Lee TL430-240-SWC and the Lyman 429360 in the 44 Magnum with RL7 to give a close approximation of the same load in the 44-40? Or if you want to send me some of your bullets I can test them also?

[Outpost75]

Larry, not sure what happened. Editing the post and trying again

[Savvy Jack]

I really would like to know the pressures myself. Noticing back in the early 1900's, 1937ish according to the Bullseye label date.....
Attachment 252045

Sharpe's
Revolver - 200gr JSP, 6.7gr, 955fps @ 15,000cup
Revolver - 250gr Lead, 6.5gr, 890fps @ 15,000cup


Label

.44 W.C.F. & .44/40

140gr HP - 9.3? Could be 8.3
205gr lead - 6.6
250gr lead - 6.5