Thirty years was talking about this with the owner of one of the wonderful gun smith / gun shops in the Houston area.
A '92 Winchester 44-40 was his favorite deer hunting piece. He loaded it to suit the strength of the '92 action.
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Thirty years was talking about this with the owner of one of the wonderful gun smith / gun shops in the Houston area.
A '92 Winchester 44-40 was his favorite deer hunting piece. He loaded it to suit the strength of the '92 action.
Today I was able to test some factory loads and my handloads using the PressureTrace strain gauge method. With a tweek here and there I feel I am well on my way with the program. So far the results I am getting are close to what I figured.
Buffalo Bore claims their "Heavy" 44-40 ammunition is loaded at least "at" the SAMMI MAP of 11,000psi for the Piezo psi method. Thus I used Buffalo Bore as my "control" and setting the pressure results to about 11,000 psi. With this "Control" I then tested Winchester Super-X, MagTech and then my handloads. Magtech was so low I was having problems getting a reading with all the "feedback". I couldn't get the sensitivity set high enough to avoid false readings.
Below are my results.
20" MGM "Test" Barrel (not a Universal type test barrel)
PressureTrace II strain gauge and Software
Buffalo Bore's "Heavy" 44-40 - 1,382fps@11,300 psi
MagTech's 44-40A Sporting - 875@6,000psi (inconclusive)
Winchester's Super-X Hunting - 1,025fps@6,594psi
22gr IMR4227, Winchester JSP - 1,386fps@12,035psi
22gr IMR4227, Sierra 210gr JHP - 1,393fps@14,454psi
Attachment 230213
Also some videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CiU...-xTMds&index=2
https://www.44winchestercenterfireca...essure-testing
Last edited by Savvy Jack; 11-11-2018 at 08:21 PM.
PressureTrace II, 20" MGM "Test" Barrel (Not a Universal type test barrel)
Updated 12 November 2018...MY RESULTS
MagTech's 44-40A Sporting - 875 @6,000psi (inconclusive)
Winchester's Super-X Hunting - 1,025fps @6,594psi (well below SAAMI MAP)
7.9gr Unique, Lyman 427098 - 1,146fps @8,318psi (7.9gr Lyman's G1 Max Load)
40gr Skirmish BP, 200gr BigLube - 1,091fps @8,900psi (Black Powder)
25gr Reloder 7, 3D 240gr LRNFP - 1,357fps @9,613psi
23.5gr Reloder 7, Acme 240SWC - 1,284fps @9,758psi (Lee Max Load)
8.5gr Unique, Speer 200gr JHP - 1,062fps @9,787psi (Lyman G1 Max Load)
Buffalo Bore's "Heavy" 44-40 - 1,382fps @11,300psi ("The Control" SAAMI MAP)
22gr IMR4227, Winchester JSP - 1,386fps @12,035psi (+P Loads)
27gr Reloder 7, XTP 200gr HP - 1,441fps @12,954psi (+P Loads)
**22gr IMR4227, Sierra 210gr JHP - 1,393fps@14,454psi (+P Loads)
**NOTE, Lyman lists 20.5gr of IMR4227 for the Sierra 210gr JHP bullet, Lyman claims 1,455fps from a 24" Universal receiver and produces 19,600 CUP.
A handloader must make a decision, create his own limitations, use the limitations he feels comfortable with.
Last edited by Savvy Jack; 11-12-2018 at 12:51 PM.
Interesting numbersOriginally Posted by Savvy Jack
The blackpowder velocity is pretty weak - is "Skirmish" code name for Wano?
I got 1355 FPS from 40 grains of FFF (not Wano) and a 205 grain boolit - 24 inch barrel though
Skirmish is "floor sweepings" used for reenactments, blanks. I used it for CAS. Don't know anything about Wano
I have a few tests planned out for next week....I'll try to load up some Swiss FFG too
Memory lapse got me - Wano goes as Scheutzen at your place I think - decent powder but less velocity - 150 fps down (or more) in a 44/40.
Interesting that decent blackpowder gets velocity close to some of your tested +P smokeless loads.
Actually original Black Powder velocities were reported to be 1,325fps from a 24" barrel. John Kort dissected some 1800's cartridges, replaced the dead primers with new primers and averaged 1,320fps. Although Winchester Super-X calls for 1,190fps, I consistently get 1,025 from a 20" barrel 1,055 from a 24" barrel.
Read this excellent article he wrote.
https://www.44winchestercenterfireca...Powder-Journey
His highest velocity was from using 40gr Swiss FFG @ 1,379fps. This is what many gun nuts just don't understand about the 44-40. It was severely neutered in velocity and more over, 100+ yards accuracy. Bringing back velocity tightens groups considerably at distances with the right bullet and powder.....for me....has been Reloder 7 and a small variety of bullets....BUT may not be suitable for weak action weapons.
Last edited by Savvy Jack; 11-13-2018 at 09:06 PM.
Wonder what the pressure reading is/would be on those full throttle blackpowder loads?
I shall soon find out on my party!!
Swiss is the most dense and should produce the most pressures.
Math scares the biology out of me, but is there a formula to convert LUP to PSI? If Lead Units of Pressure was used for Black?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
From my reading and to the best of my Knowledge at this time; there is no foumula to convert LUP to PSI nor one to convert CUP to psi as the two older systems are too nonlinear to give any meaningful conversion results.
Both CIP and SAAMI looked at the Problem and gave up on finding a formula that would give useful conversions.
Chev. William
Last edited by Chev. William; 11-15-2018 at 10:12 PM.
This was basically my frustration with CUP tested cartridges. Too bad those companies that publish handload information such as Lyman won't retest all CUP cartridges to give psi results. I know that too would be expensive but it is frustrating. Linear.....I'll have to remember that word for future use
"Linear Frustration"
Looking further at +P loaded cartridges I noticed a similarity in the max pressure range.
SAAMI PSI MAP
.275 Rod
54,000psi
58,000 psi +P
9mm
35,000psi
38,000psi +P
38spl
17,000psi
23,000psi +P
45 Auto
21,000psi
23,000psi +P
44-40
11,000psi
My 44-40 14,000psi +P loads (if accurate) would fall into a typical 2,000 to 3,000 psi "+P" increase in pressure range. I have one load that replicates the original 1,500fps High Velocity loads.
Interestingly enough in Chuck Hawk's "45 Colt High Pressure Loads" article https://www.chuckhawks.com/high-pressure45.htm, he refers to the 45 Colt's 14,000psi piezo method max pressure but then goes on to mention that in Speer's Reloading Manual No. 13, they list the 45 Colt's high pressure loads in CUP at 25,000cup....and my OCD frustration of not knowing what this would be in psi. The exact same frustration with early 1900's HV factory loads and Lyman's loaded 44-40 HV pressures of 22,000cup.
Last edited by Savvy Jack; 11-15-2018 at 06:40 PM.
edited
Last edited by Savvy Jack; 11-22-2018 at 04:59 PM.
Savvy Jack,
I noted you reported Swiss ffg Black Powder results but I wonder if There would be an increase in Velocity for Swiss fffg Black Powder? Or would it just increase Pressures without increase in Velocity?
Even presuming the ffg is more a Rifle granulation and fffg is more of a Pistol granulation I still wonder about its relative performance at the sme volume charge.
On the small end of BP loadings I found the Following weights for various equal volume charges of Swiss BP in a .25ACP case:
(fired primer inverted in Pocket to close flash hole, Filled to level with Mouth of .614" long case)
1Fg = 5.00 gr weight average for 10 charges.
3Fg = 5.14 gr weight average for 10 charges.
4Fg = 5.42 gr weight average for 10 charges.
Null B = 5.60 gr weight average for 10 charges.
At the time of my testing, I did not have any Swiss 2Fg on hand to Try.
Also Noted that 5.00 grains weight of 3F compresses to Solid if a 50 Grain Magtech JRN Bullet is seated into the .615" long case to a Overall Length of .850".
at .840" the Case is bulged and compressed into locking in the shell holder.
Listed maximum overall length for the .25ACP is .910".
Chev. William
This has been a very interesting thread to follow along with. I have a vintage 1897 Winchester '73 carbine in 44/40 WCF that I meant to take hunting this Fall, but some medical ^%&$ put the kabosh on that project. I also have a Uberti Cattleman x 4-3/4' in the caliber, so the cartridge gets some shooting in my hobby activity apart from the hunting fields.
My primary interest in loading for these lower-pressure applications is SAFETY--I don't want to bend things. I have used John Kort's RL-7 loadings in Starline brass--24.0 grains supporting Lyman #427098 sized at .429" and fired by CCI #300 primers. The principal rationale for the "100% loading density" smokeless powder was to give support to the bullet against "telescoping" while shunting down the tubular magazine and provide safe working pressures--like black powder did back in the day. Time went on, and along came SAECO #446 for the 44/40, which has a crimp groove that #427098 lacks. 24.0 grains of RL-7 provided good accuracy with both bullets (within the limits of levergun and caliber capabilities), so this powder & weight has been my go-to load for several years. Its only down-side is that when fired in the revolver it leaves a bit of unburned powder residue behind; in the longer rifle barrel this is not present.
That Winchester Hunting Super-X load is intriguing. 1025 FPS with less than 7K PSI pressures.......I would surely like to know what powder/weight produced that result. Swap in a cast 200-215 grain bullet with that charge or perhaps a bit more, and a shooter would have a very safe combination for the older iron arms and the stronger steel guns.
I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.
I have not really tested any black powders of that sort in detail. I only have Swiss FFFG so I can not compare it to Swiss FFG. My thoughts are the same as yours of which way it would go. I would certainly think it would increase pressures but the burning consistency may or may not be suitable for the same or better accuracy. My Swiss FFG looks much like Reloder 7, consistent shinny granular while Kik and Goex is more powdery and dusty.
I did forget that compressing .21" does bulge the brass some, nothing to hinder use in my firearms but the chamber in the test barrel is tight and they won't chamber. I will have to regroup and use 35gr or so but it doesnt help the fact I don't have both FF and FFF to compare.
Savvy ,, would the RL-7 loads you are loading be safe in my Uberti 1875 44-40 Outlaw's ( 1 w/71/2" & 1w/ 5" barrel's ) or do I need to load " down " ?? Been using ww231 for the 1875's .
coffee's ready ,, Hootmix .
Hootmix,
Here is Hercules data sheet for .44-40 featuring RL7, should be OK. You will get some burned powder in revolvers, but as long as you keep the muzzle elevated when you poke out the empties, spin the cylinder and blow out the action between reloads you should have no trouble.
Attachment 230527Attachment 230528
The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
Thank you , Outpost I will write these in my Lyman Book , under the pistol section .
coffee's ready ,, Hootmix .
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