44-40 +p?

[Savvy Jack]

That really isn't the point. On line and in print there are several sources for three levels of load data for the 45-70 Gov't. This seems to be well know and accepted in the reloading community. Using lab tested data for my 1886 (modern) Winchester I am not trying to make a magnum out of it. I am simply using published data for loads not safe in a Trapdoor Springfield that are perfectly safe in my rifle.
The situation for the 44WCF is similar but not as well know or published. I had a Uberti 1873 Winchester for years in 44WCF before I read about John Kort's efforts to replicate Winchester H.V. ammo. I found the Lyman Group I and Group II data and was interested. I had a Group I rifle only. Fast forward a few years and I now have an 1892 Winchester in 44WCF and enjoy shooting Group II loads. Just as above, simply using published data for loads not safe in an 1873 Winchester that are perfectly safe in the 1892.
There are many loads, powders, cartridges that one source lists and two or three more do not. The high velocity or Group II loads are one of these subjects. That is how we wound up on this forum discussing the subject. You can call them +P, Group II, H.V........but magnum they are not.
If it has not been said in this particular thread then let me say it. Follow the published data from a reputable source.

Well said!

[Chev. William]

How about a .17HMR Magnum?

You CAN do it with Breech seating the bullet and using an appropriate Grade and size Powder Tool Load Rimfire Blank.
PTL blanks are standardized in 12 steps from Grade 1 (weakest) to Grade 12 (strongest) I am aware they are available in at least three diameters ; 22, 25, and 27 with general commercial availability of grades varying by the size.
I believe the Industrial Customer may have access to the full Grade range in each size.
Chev. William

[indian joe]

That really isn't the point. On line and in print there are several sources for three levels of load data for the 45-70 Gov't. This seems to be well know and accepted in the reloading community. Using lab tested data for my 1886 (modern) Winchester I am not trying to make a magnum out of it. I am simply using published data for loads not safe in a Trapdoor Springfield that are perfectly safe in my rifle.
The situation for the 44WCF is similar but not as well know or published. I had a Uberti 1873 Winchester for years in 44WCF before I read about John Kort's efforts to replicate Winchester H.V. ammo. I found the Lyman Group I and Group II data and was interested. I had a Group I rifle only. Fast forward a few years and I now have an 1892 Winchester in 44WCF and enjoy shooting Group II loads. Just as above, simply using published data for loads not safe in an 1873 Winchester that are perfectly safe in the 1892.
There are many loads, powders, cartridges that one source lists and two or three more do not. The high velocity or Group II loads are one of these subjects. That is how we wound up on this forum discussing the subject. You can call them +P, Group II, H.V........but magnum they are not.
If it has not been said in this particular thread then let me say it. Follow the published data from a reputable source.

45/70 lists three levels - trapdoor, winchester 1886 , ruger only (to which some have added modern made 1886)
Same would be smart with the 44/40 - 1873 and colt revolvers - 1892 winchester - modern steel 1892 (Rossi, Browning etc)
I have seen excessive headspace creep up in old model 92's with heavy loads that a Rossi or Browning would eat.
Those low serial number 92's are 125 years old - not the equal (strength) of a modern gun.

[indian joe]

In Australia, Win 94s in 44/40 have been pretty easy to find in the past as the were a special order item from Winchester for many years, long after they stopped producing them for the rest of the world. This was due to the fact that one of our States, The Northern Territory (technically not a state, but as good as) had a silly rule where you could buy a 44/40 level rifle without any checks, paperwork, etc, but you had to have a license for anything more powerful, so most just bought a 44/40 and left it at that.

I have had a lot of 44/40s in the past (not one of the 94s sadly, I was never cashed up when one was available). I currently own two 1892s and two Ubertis, an 1866 and an 1873 (they are often called Ubeautys in Australia) as well as three Pietta 1873 handguns. I have reloaded a lot for them, but was never tempted to hot rod them. This was not true of many friends, who approached the issue with the "Heck, it's bigger than a 44Mag!"

I never saw anyone have trouble with their firearm, but plenty had trouble with brass failing. That appears to be the weak link.

If I lived in bear counrty and it was the only rifle I could afford, I'd probably try and squeeze a bit extra out of it, but I'd only be reloading the cases for the range or plinking. No sense encouraging a failure in the field.

It's a great old cartridge, use black powder, that sucker will sound so loud, you'll be convinced you're going lickety split!

Four Fingers
Have you had any remington brass - we get a body split case (or two) most times we reload - Uberti chambers - always its a rem-umc case - have also Winchester, Starline and I threw out about thirty old Dominion that had been reloaded a heap of times since the 1960's and no splits in those just the Rem-umc.
No have not tried annealing them - and yes headspace is good - and no not from excessive resizing - most cases we load maybe five times (including the split Rem's )before they need a touch with the size die - its the brass not the gun! -----just curious if this is typical or if we just got a crook batch one time.

[Savvy Jack]

Four Fingers
Have you had any remington brass - we get a body split case (or two) most times we reload - Uberti chambers - always its a rem-umc case - have also Winchester, Starline and I threw out about thirty old Dominion that had been reloaded a heap of times since the 1960's and no splits in those just the Rem-umc.
No have not tried annealing them - and yes headspace is good - and no not from excessive resizing - most cases we load maybe five times (including the split Rem's )before they need a touch with the size die - its the brass not the gun! -----just curious if this is typical or if we just got a crook batch one time.

Like I said, I have reloaded numerous cases and shot a minimum of 1,000 High Velocity cartridges with only one damaged case. I used RP brass in my early testings (pistol powders) but switched to Starline. John Kort used RP brass for his HV loads and never mentioned a damaged case.

I use RP, Winchester, Starline and even some WW brass. RP was the only damages piece out of well over 1,000 rounds and countless HV reloads.
Attachment 229683
Jan 15th, 2018
RP brass I found while cleaning. Date damaged unknown

[indian joe]

Rem umc 44/40
body split


Aint the first - unlikely the last - Winchester , WW, Starline and ancient Dominion loaded same and fired in same gun dont do it.
blackpowder only - no resizing - case fell into the chamber of the rifle it was fired in and fell out
anneal would maybe fix it.
have rem umc 45/70 cases here, no problems at all with those

[Savvy Jack]

Rem umc 44/40
body split


Aint the first - unlikely the last - Winchester , WW, Starline and ancient Dominion loaded same and fired in same gun dont do it.
blackpowder only - no resizing - case fell into the chamber of the rifle it was fired in and fell out
anneal would maybe fix it.
have rem umc 45/70 cases here, no problems at all with those

This is great information but just because you guys in Australia are getting splits shouldn't mean others shouldn't load per Lyman's manual. There must be a logical explanation.

1. Exactly what loads are you using?
1a. power?
1b. charge?
1c. bullet?
1d. primers?
1c. firearm?
1d. What percentage of shots result in splits?

My results are really 0 in 5000+ all loads all firearms, 0 in 1,000+ High Pressure loads in my Marlin and magnum frame revolver. (including all types of loads...plus my only split is not typical)
I also have six different firearms chambered for the 44-40 PLUS a test barrel. I have only used about 100 cases for the HV loads so they have been reloaded less than a few times each with about ten (some random grabs) being reloaded up to 20 times as my test cases ranging over the past 10 years.

I have shot some early semi-balloonhead cases with full 40gr of SWISS FF with no problems and without annealing.....but did not press my luck further. I did expect a case mouth crack but came out undamaged.

You already said all different case manufactures resulted in splits so it can't be a manufacture design problem.

Also, can you measure the spend cases in several areas from the base to the mouth and share the results?

Thank you for this information.

[ajjohns]

I find these loads helpful. It's nice to see others enjoying what these rifles have to offer and the loads for them. My Remington 14 1/2 loves a Speer 200 or 210 gr Gold Dot behind 20grs of Alliant 2400, Winchester Lg pistol primer. Also softer boolits with 19grs of IMR 4227.

[indian joe]

This is great information but just because you guys in Australia are getting splits shouldn't mean others shouldn't load per Lyman's manual. There must be a logical explanation.
crook batch of brass is my best guess

1. Exactly what loads are you using?
37 grains 5FA Goex --- 1990's vintage - chronos about someplace between Swiss and modern Goex FFF
1a. power?
1b. charge?
1c. bullet? 225 grain CBE or 205 grain LEE
1d. primers?
normal large rifle - federal now - that case coulda had Fed, Rem or WW
1c. firearm?
Uberti 1866 - nothing wrong with the rifle
1d. What percentage of shots result in splits?
good question - most times we load is 50 to 80 rounds - usually find a cracked Rem case - and usually half the cases will be other brand
Some of these coulda stood two or three years loaded with blackpowder before shot .
My results are really 0 in 5000+ all loads all firearms, 0 in 1,000+ High Pressure loads in my Marlin and magnum frame revolver. (including all types of loads...plus my only split is not typical)
I also have six different firearms chambered for the 44-40 PLUS a test barrel. I have only used about 100 cases for the HV loads so they have been reloaded less than a few times each with about ten (some random grabs) being reloaded up to 20 times as my test cases ranging over the past 10 years.

If your HV loads are running 1500 FPS or so should be as safe as houses in a properly setup modern gun

I have shot some early semi-balloonhead cases with full 40gr of SWISS FF with no problems and without annealing.....but did not press my luck further. I did expect a case mouth crack but came out undamaged.

You already said all different case manufactures resulted in splits so it can't be a manufacture design problem.
NO TO THAT!!!! its only REM UMC doing it ----- winchester , WW, Starline, the old dominion (semi balloonhead) - none of em split - only the REMUMC

Also, can you measure the spend cases in several areas from the base to the mouth and share the results?

the broken one is .461 at the solid head, .467 at the bulge, .463 point of shoulder, neck is out of round so cant get a measure
I resize to .463 when they need it. I dont use the FL size die ever - have a super simplex 44mag die set and by happy coincidence the seating die just kisses those 44/40 shells back so they chamber

Thank you for this information.

can get 40 grains of black in these modern cases just heavy compression - 40 grain FFF with 205 Grain RCBS got me 1355fps out of my 24 inch rifle. ...is that a plus "B" loading??
........

[Savvy Jack]

can get 40 grains of black in these modern cases just heavy compression - 40 grain FFF with 205 Grain RCBS got me 1355fps out of my 24 inch rifle. ...is that a plus "B" loading??
........

No, that is original black powder pressures, regardless of velocities achieved. They are not +P loads

Using Starline brass, I can get 40gr of Swiss with about a .21" compression depending on the seat depth of a particular bullet.

[Savvy Jack]

Swiss FF black powder, or at least my particular batch, were gr for gr with .21" compression. Goex, Kik and Skirmish varied in weight per case volume. Skirmish of course being "floor sweepings" for CAS.

Swiss is/was more dense...(with .21" compression)
Swiss FF - 40gr weight equaled 40gr by volume. More power
Goex FF - 38gr weight equaled 40gr by volume. Less power


John Kort's 44-40 Black-Powder Journey

[Savvy Jack]

NO TO THAT!!!! its only REM UMC doing it ----- winchester , WW, Starline, the old dominion (semi balloonhead) - none of em split - only the REMUMC

Oh oh, I misundersood!!!

I first used RP brass back when I started the HV testing because PR brass is thicker. But because it is thicker, frequent full (.426) size resizing can weaken the brass using slightly over sized chambers. With an over sized chamber to fit .430 bullets and resizing back to the standard to fit .426 bullets really over works the thicker RP brass. My Marlin's chamber is very slightly larger than any other weapon's chamber I have. If I shoot a cartridge in the marlin, without resizing afterwords....the case may or may not fit into another weapon. Sometimes they do sometimes they don't. The Marlin accepts and cycles anything I put in it, not so much with the others. As a matter of fact, when I bought the Marlin, the owner also sent me his 44 magnum resize die. He cut the die down so it would only resize the neck to fit the .430 bullets. This is one reason why I consider 0 out of 3,000 cases with no damage because the damaged RP case is a mouth crack and not a case length crack...but I can not confirm.

I would love to have a 66'..

It is very possible that I switched to Starline brass before I shot enough for a failure....other than the one I showed.

Starline is thicker than Winchester but thinner than RP. I hate CBC brass with a bloody passion! RP holds less volumetricly than SL or Win!

[Harry O]

I think Outpost75 had a Ruger that he sent off to have the cylinder chambers reamed out to properly fit the .429 bullets. That too is why I shyed away from the Ruger when I was looking for a revolver to complement my 1889 Marlin made in 1891 after reading up on those problems. I wish now I had purchased the Ruger and had the cylinder reworked. I found that the chamber in my Marlin 1894 is just a tad larger than the revolver I also have a "test barrel" I had made and it too has a tad smaller chamber than I wanted.

I have had good results with the Lyman published 18gr of 2400 and is great for +P loads and is only 1,500 CUP higher than SAAMI max pressures of 13,000 CUP WITH the Speer JHP (.429). In my testings, my top useful +P+ 44-40 loads are still well lower than the typical 44 Magnum. Lyman's top +P+ (Group II Rifle Loads) is loaded to 21,900 CUP and brings in about 1,600fps (Maybe it was 1,400fps) for a Lyman 427098 LRNFP bullet.

My Rugers were bought right after they were introduced. I did send them to a gunsmith to ream out the cylinder throats (in front of the chamber) to 0.430" (up from 0.424"). Unfortunately, he did not have a chamber reamer to open up the necks of the chamber. I believe that they did not become available until later. He would have had to set up his lathe 6 times for each cylinder. The price was too much for me. So I had to stay with 0.427" bullets with a 0.430" barrel. Even so, with soft lead bullets and Bullseye powder, I was able to reduce the group size of the Ruger to 1/3 of what I got before. Unfortunately, that load leaded very badly in my microgroove rifle. With a 0.431" bullet for the rifle, I could not even seat that load in the handgun. Two loads would not have worked in CAS. With a mistake, it would jam one gun or lead the other gun.

After seeing the discussion about brass, I should note that I also had problems with Remington and Winchester brass with hot loads early on. They would split halfway around the base about 3/16" above the rim rather than split lengthwise like old cases normally do. I have been using Starline brass since then and have not had any problems.

Interesting that you place the pressure of an 18gr load so low. I thought it would be more than that. However, I knew it was less than the .44 Magnum, and even a little less than Elmer Keiths .44 Special loads. It makes for a nice load to shoot in my particular 44-40.

[Outpost75]

As FYI for anyone needing to know, my friends and I have had John Taylor do enough Ruger revolver work that he built a fixture to hold the cylinder and to index each chamber in turn for a full rotation, so that he is set up to chamber Ruger cylinders efficiently, uniformly and affordably.

[Savvy Jack]

Interesting that you place the pressure of an 18gr load so low. I thought it would be more than that. However, I knew it was less than the .44 Magnum, and even a little less than Elmer Keiths .44 Special loads. It makes for a nice load to shoot in my particular 44-40.

Absolutely, Lyman has published nothing new.

An article posted by Pacos Kelly some years ago that has since disappeared from the net. It was reposted not long ago by someone else. Unfortunately I have no idea what Part I was all about. It is my understanding he shut his web site down sometime between 2007 to 2009.

I removed the quotes so it is easier to read.

44-40 NOT A ZIP CODE...PT 2

In part one of 44-40 (in Back Issues) I spoke of the Uberti handguns I have in this caliber. One a bird’s head grip and the other a standard S/A Colt type grip...both with the 4 plus inch barrels. I was amazed at these two guns because they were manufactured many years apart from each other and yet the dimensions of the parts, all 4 cylinders (2 in 44 spc. and 2 in 44-40), chamber throats and bore were all so close, and everything can be swapped out between the two without changing the group sizes and striking points. And accuracy from the 120 plus year 44-40 cartridge from both guns was outstanding.

I had originally purchased both guns with the idea that I wanted to use the second cylinders chambered for the 44 special round only. Knowing the 44 special could in modern guns be loaded to much higher ballistics than the old 44-40. Since most modern 44-40 barrels are .428/9 bore like these Uberties, I felt the 44 special ammo would perform well. And it did. But I just can’t own a gun chambered for any round and not test it to it’s fullest...and certainly I put the pair with the 44-40 cylinders thru their paces.

The 44-40 like it’s brother cartridge the 38-40...suffers an image problem. Expressed best by an incident I had back in Virginia in the early 1970s when we lived in the wild back country. A young man and neighbor who acquired a beautiful Colt S/A in 44-40 was complaining about it’s "PUNY" ballistics. He brought the gun to me to see if he could re-barrel and chamber it to 45 colt.

That part of Virginia in those days was dense with oak trees. Oak is very dense wood...tough stuff. I had hundreds of trees on my property, and we were standing 10 feet away from one that was young and about 4 to 5 inches thick. With Winchester-Western commercial ammo I started shooting at the base of the tree on the left edge drawing my shots across the to right edge in a straight line. At the fourth or fifth shot the tree came down. My young friend was happily surprised. Using a reload of a Keith 240 grain cast bullet over 15.5 grains of 2400, my young friend went on to harvest many deer with that gun in the years that followed...That’s the image that the 44-40 has, that it is somehow puny...and of course it’s not true. It’s just that we live in a time when some handguns give the ballistics of some rifles...and the 44-40 seems modest to the extreme.

I don’t think I have ever read that the 45 ACP hardball round from a 1911 was puny. If fact it is thought of as fairly substantial...in law enforcement it is considered still today as one of the ultimate rounds for defense...even compared to the hot shot 40 S&Ws and hyper Nines. Yet any sound and modern 44-40 will give better ballistics than the old 45 ACP.

And since Starline has now been manufacturing it’s strong brass in 44-40 even the old argument that the brass is weak and doesn’t last is not standing the test of time. When I was going thru my period of buying, rebuilding, re-barreling, re-chambering, and generally raising hell with Rossi lever guns...from 1977/8 thru 1989 or so...one of the nicer Rossi carbines I got a hold of was chambered for 44-40. Using Starline brass and a Keith cast bullet over 2400 powder, I get 1500 plus fps from those 250 grainers....and almost 1250 ft.lbs of muzzle energy. And the brass lasts and lasts. That’s 44 magnum handgun power, from this 20 inch carbine. Everyone should have at least one short handy rifle and a accurate load that is powerful and shoots right to the point of aim out to around 100 plus yards, and a handgun that will handle the same load. And it sure does harvest deer well. Of course as always shot placement and bullet type are very important.

I have killed a half dozen feral dogs with this round from handguns. Keith shaped slugs along with LBT shapes are excellent but we must take care with jacketed bullets that are designed for the 44 magnum. Like the 265 grain jacketed soft point. From a 44-40 revolver expansion is going to be minimal on small game like dogs and coyotes. Certainly penetration will be excellent, and the good sized meplat on this bullet will disrupt bone and flesh well.

But for small game, wide flat nosed cast is better...for vermin and varmints the very light 180 grain jacketed hollow points loaded warm make good sense. Using both Sierra and Speer 180 grain jacketed hollow points over 19 grains of 2400 gave both slugs within 20 fps of each other and at 1147 fps average for ten shoots...five of each bullet...we are talking 520+ ft. lbs of muzzle energy for the 44 WCF. Consider this a P+ load, only tight and modern Colt and Colt clone single actions should be used. Probably running around 18000 to 19000 psi...which is above the industry standard of 14000 cup.

The Lyman Reloading Book #47 page 344 gives a load of 20 grains of 2400 under a 200 grain jacketed bullet generating 19,000 cup and 1638 fps from a 24 inch pressure barrel. But ammo manufacturing industry has to worry over black powder guns....I personally would not use these loads in even a modern clone 1873 rifle. And with 19/2400/180 JHC giving 1515 fps from the Rossi levergun, I feel that’s a top load...coyotes beware.

I found ReL #7 much better than anything else in the rifle. But with all the slow powders, pistol and rifle...the primers were critical. I found the standard pistol primers were not warm enough. Because the case of the 44-40 is so weak, you can’t put a heavy crimp on it, the case will buckle...at least they did it to me. So ignition wasn’t consistent with the slower powders...I went to Winchester’s standard/magnum handgun primers and velocity and accuracy became much better.

The 200 grain bullet seems to be the standard...and they are good. But the 180s give much better ballistics, especially cast bullets. Which will give 50 to 75 fps more velocity with the same load as jacketed. Besides wide flat nose cast slugs for years have proven they are game killers.

A friend complained that his medium loads from the 44 WCF and the 44 Spc. were leading badly, and he had hardened up his alloy but it got worse....Of course it did. His medium loads were around 800 to 900 fps. Hard lead needs pressure to slug up into the bore...if it doesn’t then gas cutting occurs and leads the bore. So I got him to soften his alloy and the fouling disappeared. 11 grains of Unique under a 180 grain cast bullet gives 1104 fps from my handguns (average five shots from each gun), and if it were a load for the handgun only, this old standby powder would do the job as good as any, and better than some. But as a rifle load it reaches it’s peak too quickly for excellent velocities...running only 1318 fps from the Rossi. Blue Dot was a surprising powder in the 44-40...not giving the highest velocities but close and excellent accuracy from both handguns...and I will take accuracy over velocity every time. 14.5/BlueDot/180 cast went 1157 fps and went into an 1 and a 1/4 at 25 yards. At 75 yards the rifle put these 180s into 1 and 3/4ths inches and that is with my older eyes. With muzzle velocity of 1520 fps.

Blue Dot under a good 200 grain cast bullet is also very good. 13/Blue Dot/200 LBT went 1110 fps from the handguns and near 1500 from the rifle. Either of these loads would take deer very cleanly to 100 or so yards. Any good reloading book will give you the standard loads using fast powders like Bullseye, WW231, Red Dot and such. And for loads in the 700 to 800 fps range they are very good. But for higher velocities even in short barreled sixguns...2400 and Blue Dot are hard to beat. I bet Winchester in 1873 and Colt in 1878 when chambering the Rifle ‘73 and the handgun Mod.P never would have thought 120 plus years later we would still be reloading this cartridge. Even with all it’s failings..like weak brass...and a real dislike for some powders...it’s a good cartridge.~Pacos Kelly

[Chev. William]

Rem umc 44/40
body split


Aint the first - unlikely the last - Winchester , WW, Starline and ancient Dominion loaded same and fired in same gun dont do it.
blackpowder only - no resizing - case fell into the chamber of the rifle it was fired in and fell out
anneal would maybe fix it.
have rem umc 45/70 cases here, no problems at all with those

Indian Joe,
Have you made and Measured a Chamber Casting of the chamber(s) in which you are getting RP Brass split bodies?
My 'feeling' is that the Chamber may be allowing the RP Brass too much 'expansion space' and it is stretching beyond its ultimate limit.
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

can get 40 grains of black in these modern cases just heavy compression - 40 grain FFF with 205 Grain RCBS got me 1355fps out of my 24 inch rifle. ...is that a plus "B" loading??
........

Chuckling,
The finer the granulation the more You can get into a case BEFORE Compressing to seat a bullet; BUT you may find the BP compresses into a Solid Block and therefore Burns from one end instead of throughout the full body of the Charge.

Also true 44-40/44WCF cases should have a slight bottle neck shape reflecting the chamber shape Standardized in CIP and recommended in SAAMI drawings.

My Personal Opinion is that Resizing cases to match Maximum cartridge dimensions is OK and will fit any Chamber from the Minimum dimensions up to the Maximum dimensions listed fro Chambers. My Preference is a minimum chamber anyway as it requires less Resizing of Brass with each reloading.

Firearm manufacturers do not use Minimum dimension reamers as they have too short a Production life. Manufacturers use reamers that start out Large and over time and resharpening slowly get to cut smaller and smaller chambers.
How close to the Minimum dimension chamber a particular manufacturer allow is according to THEIR Production Economics and tooling replacement cost/benefit analysis.

Chev. William

[indian joe]

Chuckling, ? didnt realise I said anything funny ?

The finer the granulation the more You can get into a case BEFORE Compressing to seat a bullet;Has not been my experience with WEIGHED charges - might be a tenth of a grain one way or tother but nothing you would notice
BUT you may find the BP compresses into a Solid Block and therefore Burns from one end instead of throughout the full body of the Charge.If that were the case would you expect good consistent velocity and nice small shot to shot spreads? I dont think so - I have the numbers of steadily increasing velocity in the 44/40 for one grain increments of added powder - I dont believe in the solid rocket fuel theory - and I did lean on that 40 grain load uite hard

Also true 44-40/44WCF cases should have a slight bottle neck shape reflecting the chamber shape Standardized in CIP and recommended in SAAMI drawings. Starline compromises that with their taper design but the shoulder forms out first shot

My Personal Opinion is that Resizing cases to match Maximum cartridge dimensions is OK and will fit any Chamber from the Minimum dimensions up to the Maximum dimensions listed fro Chambers. My Preference is a minimum chamber anyway as it requires less Resizing of Brass with each reloading.yes but you talking custom barrels - not off the shelf repros - I always aimed at the minimum amount of working of brass that would chamber smoothly - have yet to find a set of standard loading dies that satisfied that - they all overwork th brass - even neck size dies - shrink a 44 down to 41 cal then expand it back up - crazy

Firearm manufacturers do not use Minimum dimension reamers as they have too short a Production life. Manufacturers use reamers that start out Large and over time and resharpening slowly get to cut smaller and smaller chambers.

How close to the Minimum dimension chamber a particular manufacturer allow is according to THEIR Production Economics and tooling replacement cost/benefit analysis.

Yes - but how much tolerance ? Friend and I had two model 70 's in 22/250 that would happily take each others fired shells with no sizing - serial numbers were quite a ways apart - this was early 1970's when Winchester was off the rails - always beenimpressed by that.

Chev. William

......

[indian joe]

Chuckling, ? didnt realise I said anything funny ?

The finer the granulation the more You can get into a case BEFORE Compressing to seat a bullet;Has not been my experience with WEIGHED charges - might be a tenth of a grain one way or tother but nothing you would notice
BUT you may find the BP compresses into a Solid Block and therefore Burns from one end instead of throughout the full body of the Charge.If that were the case would you expect good consistent velocity and nice small shot to shot spreads? I dont think so - I have the numbers of steadily increasing velocity in the 44/40 for one grain increments of added powder - I dont believe in the solid rocket fuel theory - and I did lean on that 40 grain load quite hard

Also true 44-40/44WCF cases should have a slight bottle neck shape reflecting the chamber shape Standardized in CIP and recommended in SAAMI drawings. Starline compromises that with their taper design but the shoulder forms out first shot

My Personal Opinion is that Resizing cases to match Maximum cartridge dimensions is OK and will fit any Chamber from the Minimum dimensions up to the Maximum dimensions listed fro Chambers. My Preference is a minimum chamber anyway as it requires less Resizing of Brass with each reloading.yes but you talking custom barrels - not off the shelf repros - I always aimed at the minimum amount of working of brass that would chamber smoothly - have yet to find a set of standard loading dies that satisfied that - they all overwork the brass - even neck size dies - shrink a 44 down to 41 cal then expand it back up - crazy

Firearm manufacturers do not use Minimum dimension reamers as they have too short a Production life. Manufacturers use reamers that start out Large and over time and resharpening slowly get to cut smaller and smaller chambers.

How close to the Minimum dimension chamber a particular manufacturer allow is according to THEIR Production Economics and tooling replacement cost/benefit analysis.

Yes - but how much tolerance ? Friend and I had two model 70 's in 22/250 that would happily take each others fired shells with no sizing - serial numbers were quite a ways apart - this was early 1970's when Winchester was off the rails - always been impressed by that.

Chev. William

......

[Savvy Jack]

The Lyman 310 hand dies don't over work the cases BUT they don't really resize the brass either. This is what I use when not in a hurry, which is most of the time, to handload for black powder or Reloder 7, both powders are a caseload with my loads.