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Thread: 44-40 +p?

  1. #41
    Boolit Master
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    This is not about exactly what you are thinking of doing, but you can use it as a data point.

    I originally tried CAS with 44-40's using a Marlin 94, Rossi, and a couple of Ruger Vaqueros. All were new production in the early 1990's. Because of problems with the Rugers, I abandoned the 44-40's. I gave my son the Rossi and one of the Vaqueros and put the Marlin and the other Vaquero into the safe for many years.

    The Marlin 94 had microgroove rifling and measured 0.430" to 0.431". Fortunately, the chamber was also big enough to take 0.431" lead bullets. I never did find a load that would shoot well in both the Marlin and the Ruger. About 6 - 8 years ago, I was thinking about a house defense rifle. AR-15's were higher than heck back then and besides, they are ugly. So I started thinking about the Marlin 44-40. I also ran across a bunch of jacketed Remington 44-40 bullets. I worked up to 18.0gr of 2400. The recoil was reasonable and it was accurate. I tried them in the Ruger and found that it was reasonably accurate in it, probably because the bullet is 0.426" - 0.427" in diameter. Of course, the bullet would not be allowed in the competition you have in mind.

    I have fired between 300 and 500 of these rounds through the guns (mostly the rifle) since then without problems. That is not a lot, but if the pressure is kept less than a .44 Magnum, the new rifles should take it. Keep in mind that both of these guns are also available in .44 Magnum.

  2. #42
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savvy Jack View Post
    This is not 1973, this is 2018 and the current Lyman's 49th Handloading Manual says otherwise. Too bad you are a slow learner, please use current updated manuals.

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post4488015
    well - up yours too mate and have a good day

  3. #43
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance Four Fingers of Death's Avatar
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    In Australia, Win 94s in 44/40 have been pretty easy to find in the past as the were a special order item from Winchester for many years, long after they stopped producing them for the rest of the world. This was due to the fact that one of our States, The Northern Territory (technically not a state, but as good as) had a silly rule where you could buy a 44/40 level rifle without any checks, paperwork, etc, but you had to have a license for anything more powerful, so most just bought a 44/40 and left it at that.

    I have had a lot of 44/40s in the past (not one of the 94s sadly, I was never cashed up when one was available). I currently own two 1892s and two Ubertis, an 1866 and an 1873 (they are often called Ubeautys in Australia) as well as three Pietta 1873 handguns. I have reloaded a lot for them, but was never tempted to hot rod them. This was not true of many friends, who approached the issue with the "Heck, it's bigger than a 44Mag!"

    I never saw anyone have trouble with their firearm, but plenty had trouble with brass failing. That appears to be the weak link.

    If I lived in bear counrty and it was the only rifle I could afford, I'd probably try and squeeze a bit extra out of it, but I'd only be reloading the cases for the range or plinking. No sense encouraging a failure in the field.

    It's a great old cartridge, use black powder, that sucker will sound so loud, you'll be convinced you're going lickety split!
    "I'll help you down the trail and proud to!" Rooster Cogburn.

    "Slap some bacon on a biscuit and let's go! We're burnin' daylight! " - Will Anderson (John Wayne) "The Cowboys."

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  4. #44
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Savvy Jack is correct. I sent my Ruger Vaquero cylinder to John Taylor for rechambering which cleaned up the chamber necks from .444 to .447 to permit loading larger diameter bullets in Starlline brass. At the same time the reamer enlarged the cylinder throats from .427" to .4305", so I can now shoot .430" bullets in it which are a good fit in its modern .429" barrel.

    John also fitted and chambered a Hamilton Bowen cylinder blank in .44-40 for my .44 Magnum Ruger Super Blackhawk and both revolvers now use the same ammo as my Marlin 1894S in .44-40 from the 1993 Jerry's Sports run, and my Interarms Rossi 1892 clone shoots well with the same ammo.

    My S&W Model 544 Texas Commemorative revolver came from the factory with .4285" cylinder throats and .429" barrel. I left it alone because those revolvers are collectible. Chamber neck diameters of the cylinder are also .447" and the gun shoots well with factory .44-40s or hand loads with .429" jacketed bullets. It also shoots well with lead bullet .44-40 handloads using soft 1:30 tin-lead Accurate 43-230G bullets of .430" diameter. Those guns were great shooters as built.
    The ENEMY is listening.
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  5. #45
    Boolit Buddy DAVIDMAGNUM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geezer in NH View Post
    44-40 +P ? buy a 44 magnum before someone gets hurt IMHO
    Because: In a lever action rifle the cartridge loads into the chamber at an angle of about 22.5 degrees.(Winchester 1892 1894 for example) If the chamber where shaped somewhat like a funnel and the cartridge the inverse of that "funnel shape" all is well, the cartridge feeds easily and fits the chamber snug. This makes for a versatile rifle cartridge combination. Black powder and low pressure smokeless loads seal the chamber protecting the action from blow by. If the chamber is in line with the bore and the cartridge fits the bore there is the potential for accuracy. If the cartridge fits the chamber in a rifle found in Group II load data then the brass will not expand enough to cause failure. ( John Moses Browning was no dummy).
    This road I have also been down......A straight walled case trying to load into a properly cut chamber in the same action is another animal. The cylinder shaped cartridge will not easily feed into a matching chamber. The action is tweaked so that the base kicks up into the bolt face, but......in many instances the chamber is purposely over-sized or at least at the large end of the SAAMI specs. My 1892 Rossi came with an oval chamber opening. Not grossly oval, but oval enough for my naked non machinist eyes to see it. This allows for feeding that is reliable but accuracy can suffer. There are many posts about trying to get a 45 Colt lever gun to shoot well. Now, there is a modern , thick straight walled case in a sloppy chamber. High pressure loads can lead to excessive case expansion causing premature failure. Low pressure loads will not enable that same case to seal the chamber and blow by is an issue. As highly as I think of John Moses Browning taking his 1892 apart for complete cleaning every time I shoot black powder is a pain where a pill can't reach. Even loads with Trailboss, Green Dot , Unique can cause soot in the chamber. So like an 1892 Japchester I had in 45 Colt it was a pretty good rifle for Ruger/Contender only loads. Not great but pretty good. Light or normal 45 Colt loads forget it. Again there are posts about this exact problem. So it was a single use rifle. Only shoulder bruising loads of a case filled with H110 or LilGun worked well. I don't want to know what a 300 Grain Laser Cast Bullet traveling at 1500fps would do to a 100 meter ram.
    I sent this rifle to John Taylor for "gender reassignment surgery". It now has 44WCF stamped on the barrel. It is now a versatile accurate rifle. Whether a small charge of TrailBoss or TiteGroup, a case full of Swiss 2F or Reloader 7 the cases come out clean which means no soot going into the action. AND a published Group II charge of 2400 is amazing! Amazingly powerful , amazingly accurate plus amazingly safe in the rifles listed in the data. I shoot lever action silhouette . I have seen first hand my 44WCF with soft 30-1 alloy bullets with a muzzle velocity of 1350fps knock over the full size 200 meter rams that were being "dinged" by heavy 30-30 loads (190 grain bullet and case full of Varget).
    Last but not least the cool factor, SAFELY firing the old 44WCF and people coming over to ask "what are you shooting".
    Can you tell that I'm a 44WCF fan?

  6. #46
    David, I will retire with your reply!

  7. #47
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    I'm using 9.5 hrs of Unique with a 215 gr cast fp in my H&R Topper stub. I estimate the velocity out of the 20" barrel to be around 1200 fps. If it bounces off a deer I'd better kick it up a safe tad till it doesn't
    The "2nd .44" is a good one since 1873.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Texas by God View Post
    I'm using 9.5 hrs of Unique with a 215 gr cast fp in my H&R Topper stub. I estimate the velocity out of the 20" barrel to be around 1200 fps. If it bounces off a deer I'd better kick it up a safe tad till it doesn't
    The "2nd .44" is a good one since 1873.
    Sometimes ya just can't beat a good Unique load and 1,200fps!! And only about 15,000 CUP, a great +P load!!!

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry O View Post
    This is not about exactly what you are thinking of doing, but you can use it as a data point.

    I originally tried CAS with 44-40's using a Marlin 94, Rossi, and a couple of Ruger Vaqueros. All were new production in the early 1990's. Because of problems with the Rugers, I abandoned the 44-40's. I gave my son the Rossi and one of the Vaqueros and put the Marlin and the other Vaquero into the safe for many years.

    The Marlin 94 had microgroove rifling and measured 0.430" to 0.431". Fortunately, the chamber was also big enough to take 0.431" lead bullets. I never did find a load that would shoot well in both the Marlin and the Ruger. About 6 - 8 years ago, I was thinking about a house defense rifle. AR-15's were higher than heck back then and besides, they are ugly. So I started thinking about the Marlin 44-40. I also ran across a bunch of jacketed Remington 44-40 bullets. I worked up to 18.0gr of 2400. The recoil was reasonable and it was accurate. I tried them in the Ruger and found that it was reasonably accurate in it, probably because the bullet is 0.426" - 0.427" in diameter. Of course, the bullet would not be allowed in the competition you have in mind.

    I have fired between 300 and 500 of these rounds through the guns (mostly the rifle) since then without problems. That is not a lot, but if the pressure is kept less than a .44 Magnum, the new rifles should take it. Keep in mind that both of these guns are also available in .44 Magnum.
    I think Outpost75 had a Ruger that he sent off to have the cylinder chambers reamed out to properly fit the .429 bullets. That too is why I shyed away from the Ruger when I was looking for a revolver to complement my 1889 Marlin made in 1891 after reading up on those problems. I wish now I had purchased the Ruger and had the cylinder reworked. I found that the chamber in my Marlin 1894 is just a tad larger than the revolver I also have a "test barrel" I had made and it too has a tad smaller chamber than I wanted.

    I have had good results with the Lyman published 18gr of 2400 and is great for +P loads and is only 1,500 CUP higher than SAAMI max pressures of 13,000 CUP WITH the Speer JHP (.429). In my testings, my top useful +P+ 44-40 loads are still well lower than the typical 44 Magnum. Lyman's top +P+ (Group II Rifle Loads) is loaded to 21,900 CUP and brings in about 1,600fps (Maybe it was 1,400fps) for a Lyman 427098 LRNFP bullet.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Four Fingers of Death View Post
    In Australia, Win 94s in 44/40 have been pretty easy to find in the past as the were a special order item from Winchester for many years, long after they stopped producing them for the rest of the world. This was due to the fact that one of our States, The Northern Territory (technically not a state, but as good as) had a silly rule where you could buy a 44/40 level rifle without any checks, paperwork, etc, but you had to have a license for anything more powerful, so most just bought a 44/40 and left it at that.

    I have had a lot of 44/40s in the past (not one of the 94s sadly, I was never cashed up when one was available). I currently own two 1892s and two Ubertis, an 1866 and an 1873 (they are often called Ubeautys in Australia) as well as three Pietta 1873 handguns. I have reloaded a lot for them, but was never tempted to hot rod them. This was not true of many friends, who approached the issue with the "Heck, it's bigger than a 44Mag!"

    I never saw anyone have trouble with their firearm, but plenty had trouble with brass failing. That appears to be the weak link.

    If I lived in bear counrty and it was the only rifle I could afford, I'd probably try and squeeze a bit extra out of it, but I'd only be reloading the cases for the range or plinking. No sense encouraging a failure in the field.

    It's a great old cartridge, use black powder, that sucker will sound so loud, you'll be convinced you're going lickety split!
    I would really like to learn more about the brass problem you guys are having. Can you give a bit more information on this issue? What firearms, which manufacture of brass, if factory loads...what brand, what powder is being used and how much, what bullets are being used, diameter etc, what reloading dies are being used...loads etc? Thanks

    Four Fingers, I just remembered...if the brass is overworked it could result is splits. I have never had this happen BUT I dont resize my brass most of the time. If someone is using .429/430 bullets and using the Lee resize die, that could be a problem. The Lee die resizes for the .427 bullet, the RCBS Cowboy die resizes larger for the .429 and helps to not over work the brass. I wonder if this could be what some of those guys were running into.

  11. #51
    Boolit Buddy
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    Jack , I believe you just answered a question I posted on another forum ,, my dies are LEE's . It pay's to read. I'v been having the same problem w/ a set for my 40-60 .

    coffee's ready ,, Hootmix .

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Hootmix View Post
    Jack , I believe you just answered a question I posted on another forum ,, my dies are LEE's . It pay's to read. I'v been having the same problem w/ a set for my 40-60 .

    coffee's ready ,, Hootmix .
    I really dont like the lee dies myself although I do use them for specific purposes other than crimping.

    What are your 40-60s doing? Are they being over worked?


    On a side note
    My typical set-up for loading the 44-40.

    Decap, no resize die (except for the Winchester/Remington bullets
    Lee powder thru expander die (powder drop)
    RCBS M die
    Lee Cowboy expander die using roll crimp for certain bullets
    REDDING Profile crimp for the Winchester, Remington and certain lead bullets.
    Lyman 310 hand tool set for other applications.

    One set of dies wont work for all applications.

  13. #53
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance Four Fingers of Death's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savvy Jack View Post

    Four Fingers, I just remembered...if the brass is overworked it could result is splits. I have never had this happen BUT I dont resize my brass most of the time. If someone is using .429/430 bullets and using the Lee resize die, that could be a problem. The Lee die resizes for the .427 bullet, the RCBS Cowboy die resizes larger for the .429 and helps to not over work the brass. I wonder if this could be what some of those guys were running into.
    I have never had any issues with 44/40 brass (apart from squashing a few tihn necks every now and then, D'Oh!).The brass issue that colleagues of mine had was when they were trying to turn their 44/40s into 44Mags (Heck! the case is bigger than a 44Mag, here! Hold my beer!). The 44/40 still has some serious Whoompum with sane loads.
    "I'll help you down the trail and proud to!" Rooster Cogburn.

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    Sniper to Psycholigist; 'Recoil Ma'am.'

    From my Irish Ancestors: "You've got to do your own growing, no matter how tall your grandfather was."

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Four Fingers of Death View Post
    I have never had any issues with 44/40 brass (apart from squashing a few tihn necks every now and then, D'Oh!).The brass issue that colleagues of mine had was when they were trying to turn their 44/40s into 44Mags (Heck! the case is bigger than a 44Mag, here! Hold my beer!). The 44/40 still has some serious Whoompum with sane loads.
    Oh, they must really be loading them up. I have no desire or use for such loads. I did load up a few stiff loads for my test barrel, no damage but I only shot a few. I do plan to shoot more but only to see how far they will go. The barrel is 1 1/4" in diameter. If I dont break it, I may get it cut down to fit my Stevens shotgun frame as a single shot rifle.

  15. #55
    Boolit Master
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    if you want to load hot . I say just keep going till the barrel splits then back off a little. what is it with everybody wants to make a magnum out of every thing ?

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by bob208 View Post
    if you want to load hot . I say just keep going till the barrel splits then back off a little. what is it with everybody wants to make a magnum out of every thing ?
    Just to make guys like you post replies like that. You just couldn't resist could you?

    44 Magnum
    44-40 Magnum
    45 Colt Magnum
    45-70 Magnum
    444 Magnum
    22 Magnum
    38 Magnum
    50 Magnum
    10 mm Magnum

    Kinda like the ring of it, no pun intended!!

  17. #57
    Boolit Master
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    Laughing . . . Try .25MACP. That is .25 Magnum Auto. Colt Pistol.
    Case diameter .276"-.278"; Bullet diameter .251"; Case length 1.055"; Bullet weight 50 Grain JRN or 65 grain Lead (NOE TC255-65-RF mold).
    Load for about 25,000psi MAP Pmax.
    Use in a Long barrel revolver or a Rifle.

    Chev. William

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Chev. William View Post
    Laughing . . . Try .25MACP. That is .25 Magnum Auto. Colt Pistol.
    Case diameter .276"-.278"; Bullet diameter .251"; Case length 1.055"; Bullet weight 50 Grain JRN or 65 grain Lead (NOE TC255-65-RF mold).
    Load for about 25,000psi MAP Pmax.
    Use in a Long barrel revolver or a Rifle.

    Chev. William
    How about a .17HMR Magnum?

  19. #59
    Boolit Buddy DAVIDMAGNUM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob208 View Post
    if you want to load hot . I say just keep going till the barrel splits then back off a little. what is it with everybody wants to make a magnum out of every thing ?
    That really isn't the point. On line and in print there are several sources for three levels of load data for the 45-70 Gov't. This seems to be well know and accepted in the reloading community. Using lab tested data for my 1886 (modern) Winchester I am not trying to make a magnum out of it. I am simply using published data for loads not safe in a Trapdoor Springfield that are perfectly safe in my rifle.
    The situation for the 44WCF is similar but not as well know or published. I had a Uberti 1873 Winchester for years in 44WCF before I read about John Kort's efforts to replicate Winchester H.V. ammo. I found the Lyman Group I and Group II data and was interested. I had a Group I rifle only. Fast forward a few years and I now have an 1892 Winchester in 44WCF and enjoy shooting Group II loads. Just as above, simply using published data for loads not safe in an 1873 Winchester that are perfectly safe in the 1892.
    There are many loads, powders, cartridges that one source lists and two or three more do not. The high velocity or Group II loads are one of these subjects. That is how we wound up on this forum discussing the subject. You can call them +P, Group II, H.V........but magnum they are not.
    If it has not been said in this particular thread then let me say it. Follow the published data from a reputable source.

  20. #60
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance Four Fingers of Death's Avatar
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    I bought one of those Savage BMag 17WSMs when they came out. Boy, what a disappointment.
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    "Slap some bacon on a biscuit and let's go! We're burnin' daylight! " - Will Anderson (John Wayne) "The Cowboys."

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    Psycholigist to Sniper; 'What did you feel when you shot the felon Sargeant?'
    Sniper to Psycholigist; 'Recoil Ma'am.'

    From my Irish Ancestors: "You've got to do your own growing, no matter how tall your grandfather was."

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check