44-40 +p?

[Marlin Junky]

Has anyone tried to invigorate the 44-40 into a silhouette cartridge for the NRA Lever Action Rifle Silhouette course? Why couldn't the 44-40 in a Marlin 1894 drive a 250 to 265 grain boolit fast enough to be a capable silhouette rifle? I suppose a lot of you will suggest, why not just use a .44 Rem, but there's an added sense of nostalgia associated to the most popular rifle/carbine cartridge of the 1870s and 1880s. I've been thinking about picking up a Marlin 1894 in 44-40 the next time I do some traveling out west, (this fall) a SAECO 430 (their 265 grain PB) and a big box of Starline 44-40 brass. I'd also like to add a Lee 6-cavity 429-200-RF to my collection so I can make a bunch of plinking boolits for the lil' woman and get her more interested in shooting.

From a silhouette rifle standpoint, I think a 265 grain PB at 1500 fps ought to work well from the slow 38" twist of an 1894 in 44-40.

MJ

[w30wcf]

MJ,
I use my '73 WInchester circa 1882 so chambered for NRA Cowboy Silhouette. a 200 gr. bullet at 1,200 f.p.s. is all that is required for the pistol cartridge category which has the furthest target at 100 meters (12# steel ram).

However, if one was going to use a .44-40 in the Rifle Cartridge category (55# ram at 200 meters), then the heavier bullet at 1,500+ f.p.s. would be good medicine. A distant friend of mine has used his Marlin Cowboy .44-40 in this event and used H4227 powder in .44 Magnum starting loads.

Have fun,
w30wcf

[Marlin Junky]

w30wcf,

Sounds good to me. I wonder how surplus WC-680 would work with SAECO 430. Hey now... I may have discovered a use for the remainder of my AA2200!

I don't have all that much experience with PB boolits so here's a question for you:
How fast do you suppose SAECO 430 can be driven and hold gas-check-like accuracy? 1500 fps? How about 1600 fps? My alloy of choice is clip-on wheel weight metal and solder which comes out to about 15 BHN according to my Lee Hardness Tester.

What are the groove dimension on your friend's 44-40? I've noticed that modern moulds usually drop bullets a little narrow for Marlin barrels, but a 44-40 should be a super tight 44 Rem.

MJ

[Four Fingers of Death]

Be careful here. Brass is the weak link, but some of the rifles are also.

I picked up a used 1866 Uberti and the owner gave me three boxes of factory loads and a box of reloads which were put together by a gunsmithwe both know. One factory round caused the action to stretch, causing mystery unreliability which was a PITA. We finally realised that the side plates were a bit loose and then saw that the actual action had stretched. Big job to fix, had to fill in the pivot hole then drill another hole a bit further forward to adjust the headspace. Only Cowboy factory loads and my reloads are going through that gun in future!

You should be right with a Marlin or a 92 though.

With a 200 Gn boolit you should be right at 1200 fps though.

[Four Fingers of Death]

PS, if you are after nostalgia, +P loads aren't part of it at all.

[Marlin Junky]

I'd be using a new Marlin 1894 and Starline brass. I thought the "brass is the weak link" colloquialism was retired when it was discovered the old Long Colt could safely surpass the 44 Remington in power assuming the gun was up to the task. I'm more concerned about sloppy chambers than "weak brass".

The nostalgia, IMHO, comes from the 133 year old cartridge and 112 year old carbine designs, not the powder charge. I would probably load them down to a mere sneeze and up to 35K CUP if I felt comfortable with it. After the Winchester '92 became a hit, the factories were loading 200 grain bullets to 1800 fps circa 1900.

MJ

[txpete]

in my 92 (navy arms)
200 gr pb lfn .429
9.0 grs unique
starline brass
win lp primer


1225,1227,1189,1181 fps good accuracy

same as above but 6.9 grs W231
1063,1055,1102,1160 fps

I know you can hot rod the 92's action but if I need more than 1200 fps I'll use another rifle..like my 375 win..45/70 ect.
pete

[9.3X62AL]

I share your view, Pete--and have no choice, since my 44-40 WCF is an original M-1873 with more than a few miles on it. I have some boolit samples loaded and ready, 215 grainers at ~1100 FPS or so, some might creep closer to 1200.

My goal is to use it on brush country deer, which the carbine was used for considerably between 1897 and 1932 during its service as ranch rifle, initially by my great-grandfather and later by Grandpa until he died on Christmas Day 1932. It sat unused until 1997, when the rifle was handed down to me after my Dad passed away. It has gone afield several times since I "woke it up", but no deer have fallen to its report since Grandpa's time. I plan to change that!

[Four Fingers of Death]

Thats a labour of love Al.

[txpete]

I share your view, Pete--and have no choice, since my 44-40 WCF is an original M-1873 with more than a few miles on it. I have some boolit samples loaded and ready, 215 grainers at ~1100 FPS or so, some might creep closer to 1200.

My goal is to use it on brush country deer, which the carbine was used for considerably between 1897 and 1932 during its service as ranch rifle, initially by my great-grandfather and later by Grandpa until he died on Christmas Day 1932. It sat unused until 1997, when the rifle was handed down to me after my Dad passed away. It has gone afield several times since I "woke it up", but no deer have fallen to its report since Grandpa's time. I plan to change that!

I was just a kid when we moved from canada to the US.all rifles were left behind with family.my family goes back to some of the first settlers north of montreal(dads side of the family).anyways..one rifle that was left behind was a old ml flintlock rifle that was handed down over the years.
back to the 44-40 I sure hope you get the chance to drop a deer with your rifle this year.I had mine out a few times last year but never had a clean shot with it hunting the cedars.maybe this year if the ol ticker is doing well.
pete

[6pt-sika]

Marlin Junky, I'm sure you already know that Marlin used the same size barrel on the 44-40 Cowboys as they use on the 44 MAG Cowboys . So when you go to size your bullets you can go with .430-.431.
I got one of the 1894CB's in 44-40 two months ago , it is NIB . But I've yet to shoot it
Just got from Midway , Lyman mold #429215. This should work fairly well in the 44-40.

[KYCaster]

MJ, I have a Rossi '92 in 44-40 that I've run some pretty intrepid loads through with mixed results. Various 200 and 215 boolits would group OK as long as velocity was kept below 1300 or so (3.3in. for five rds. at 50yds.) but as vel. increased, so did group size.

With some pretty hefty doses of old Herculese 2400 I got up to 1730 with groups in the 4.2 to 4.5 range. At 1800fps. I couldn't keep them on a 8 1/2 X 11 target. IMR 4227 did pretty decent at more sedate levels but started showing pressure signs rather quickly.

I've just started working with the Lee 434-250-RF from the recent group buy and a six pound jug of WC680 from GI Brass. Based on very limited testing I think I may have found a winner.

The 250 RF cast from ACWW, sized to .427, lubed with Thompson's Blue Angel and seated to 1.660 OAL:

20.0 WC680 1224fps. ES 120 SD 60 3rds. in 2.45
22.0 WC680 1326fps. ES 99 SD 53 3rds. in 2.18

I'll bump the charges up some and hopefully the ES, SD and group size will all shrink as the velocity increases.

Don't ya just love it when a plan comes together?!! More testing to follow!!!!!

Jerry

[9.3X62AL]

It IS a labor of love, Mick--for certain.

WC-680/AA-1680 seems to be a go-to powder for several of the hyphenated Winchester chamberings. I gotta get some of that for test drives, I have 3 of these calibers to feed.

[Marlin Junky]

Thanks for the input... epecially the one regarding groove diameter. Assuming the wide groove diameter of .430" to .431", I might as well go with the 44 Remington which will be way easier to find and probably less expensive.

MJ

P.S. What commercial boolit molds am I limited to with the 1894's 38" twist? Can I assume the 1894 in 44 Remington will be more accurate with 200 to 215 grain boolits than the Winchester M94 (assuming the latter can still be purchased new) with its 26" twist? I doubt I'd ever be interested in shooting boolits heavier than 300 grains from a Marlin 1894 in 44 Rem., but just for the sake of reference, has anyone earned bragging rights with 300+ grain boolits from the little Marlin 1894?

P.P.S. Since I'm too cheap to buy 44 cal gas checks, are you guys getting good results with the Marlin 1894 using readily available 44 cal PB molds?

[Marlin Junky]

KYCaster,

Is the Lee 434-250-RF a PB or GC mold? Can you post pics of its boolits?

MJ

[KYCaster]

[IMG][/IMG]

PB.....ACWW

Jerry

[Marlin Junky]

Thanks for the pictures. I'd be interested to know if it'll shoot accurately beyond 1400 fps. Please allow me to suggest one of the 4227's or N120 with that bullet if the WC-680 doesn't live up to expectations beyond your 22.0 grain charge. I've tried WC-680 on a few occasions and it always produced sloppy stats for me but good luck to ya just the same.

MJ

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have this mould, brand new, which I bought for the 44/40 for cowboy action. Anybody used it?

[Wayne Smith]

Just for comparison's sake. I have the MAV 200 gr bullet that goes 1200fps over 40gr GOEX FFG compressed out of a Uberti '73 Short Rifle.

[9.3X62AL]

One of my pending projects for the '73 x 44-40 is use of RL-7 in a 100% density load under a couple different vintages of #427098, info and samples provided by W30WCF--many thanks, John! The rationale behind this move is to get 1873-era ballistics and pressures, plus the powder column support the old BP charges gave to the vintage boolits like #427098, that lack a crimping groove. Marching down the tubular magazine can make uncrimped and/or unsupported boolits telescope into cases.

Try as I might, I couldn't get more than 35 grains of Goex 3F (volume measured) into the Remington cases I used for my sole venture with The Holy Black in this rifle. The bore was fouled out in about 6 rounds, so I'm certain I messed at least one variable up in the assembly.

I had one of the Lee 44-200-RF molds for a while. They dropped at .434" from the mold, which was a little too much of a good thing for my needs. I swapped it to someone on the board a while back. It did have a small crimp groove that would support the boolit against magazine spring tension and feeding manipulation.

Depending on outcome of the RL-7/#427098 work, I'll be getting a mold for this caliber in a few months. I'd like to avoid the expense of gas checks if possible, but if that's what's needed to get accuracy, I'll bite that boolit.

Bad pun. Sorry, but my metaphors are on strike due to overuse, strain, and working conditions issues.