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Thread: 44-40 +p?

  1. #101
    Boolit Buddy Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hootmix View Post
    Savvy ,, would the RL-7 loads you are loading be safe in my Uberti 1875 44-40 Outlaw's ( 1 w/71/2" & 1w/ 5" barrel's ) or do I need to load " down " ?? Been using ww231 for the 1875's .

    coffee's ready ,, Hootmix .
    Hootmix, to answer you directly.....There is no reason the loads I posted with results below 11,300 should not be safe in a standard handgun BUT BUT BUT...only use the published loads that Outpost refereed to with confidence...and any other with great hesitation.


    ....but to continue I add...

    There is always that "yeah but"....and this is it. There are only two "official" published Reloder 7 loads that I have seen. The one Outpost75 just posted and the data Lee publishes on their 44-40 three die pamphlet. Lee publishes the same load as the 2005 Alliant data. I also have an "unofficial" confirmation from an Alliant rep on the 240gr bullet load. I can't say if a load is safe or not, I don't have that right. That's the part I mentioned somewhere about we all have to make our own decisions and limitations and what chances we are willing to take.

    I trust my findings but no one else should. I only use my "11,300" psi and lower loads in my standard revolvers.

    Here is John Kort's take on using Reloder 7 in the Winchester 73'
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ll=1#post25644

  2. #102
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    From what i'v just read the primers are more of a concern ,, I have WW. & Fed. ( both LP & LR ) and I can down load RL-7 for the pistol's ???

    coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.

  3. #103
    Boolit Buddy Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hootmix View Post
    From what i'v just read the primers are more of a concern ,, I have WW. & Fed. ( both LP & LR ) and I can down load RL-7 for the pistol's ???

    coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.
    Yes, I'd use caution using WLP or other magnum primers in the loads that border the 11,000psi limit. Just as with piezo methods, I do get pressure fluctuations. I use CCI-300. I do have some Remington 2 1/2 primers but they are hard to find locally.

    In one chart, I show an extreme spread of 2,565psi (Hi 10,711psi)(low 8,146psi) but most are only 1,500psi spreads.
    The Buffalo Bore spread was 11,703H and 11,025L, spread of 677psi. Everything was above 11,000 and is my "control" load for the tests. I doubt BB uses Magnum primers but if they do, non-magnum primers is another buffer zone.
    .

  4. #104
    Boolit Buddy Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    Wonder what the pressure reading is/would be on those full throttle blackpowder loads?
    Joe I just can't load up full BP loads for the tight chamber of the test barrel. When I compress the powder .21" it expands the brass just enough to not chamber. Chamber fines in my weapons.

    With that I only loaded up a few Accurate Mold 43-215C bullets in Winchester brass with 32gr/w - 35gr/V of Kik FFFG with a .10" compression.

    Kik FFFG
    32gr/weight - 35gr/Volume
    .10" compression
    43-215C .429dia/ .665 length
    Winchester Brass
    1.295 Case
    1.602 AOL
    WLP
    Seating depth is .358

    Bullet roll crimped with an RCBS Cowboy die just below the crimp groove on top of the forward driving band.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Savvy Jack; 11-18-2018 at 05:58 PM.

  5. #105
    Boolit Buddy Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    Group II Rifles ONLY
    Lyman's 49th page 299 shows 20gr of 2400 with a Speer 200gr JHP. Using a 24" Universal Receiver with a 1-36 twist. Lyman reports 1,638fps @ 19,000CUP using Winchester LP's

    I have loaded up a few for testing Thanksgiving morning...ya'll pray for me

    Used Starline Brass
    Bullet Length - .662"
    AOL - 1.598"
    Case Length - 1.292
    Sierra 210gr SJHP #8620 .4295"
    Seating Depth - .359"

    I shot such loads back about Sept 2014 during some ballistics Gel testing. These are very unpleasant to shoot in my Magnum revolver (44-40 Cylinder) and are quite sharp in the Marlin 1894CB rifle. Accuracy was not that great with other bullets and this will be my first with the Sierra 210gr JHC. I shot very little of these loads since they were not necessary what I was looking for.

    Results from a 7 1/2" barrel Magnum frame Revolver. 10' from muzzle.

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    Last edited by Savvy Jack; 11-19-2018 at 10:56 AM.

  6. #106
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    Sept 1st, 2014

    Attachment 230636

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savvy Jack View Post
    Joe I just can't load up full BP loads for the tight chamber of the test barrel. When I compress the powder .21" it expands the brass just enough to not chamber. Chamber fines in my weapons.

    With that I only loaded up a few Accurate Mold 43-215C bullets in Winchester brass with 32gr/w - 35gr/V of Kik FFFG with a .10" compression.

    Kik FFFG
    32gr/weight - 35gr/Volume
    .10" compression
    43-215C .429dia/ .665 length
    Winchester Brass
    1.295 Case
    1.602 AOL
    WLP
    Seating depth is .358

    Bullet roll crimped with an RCBS Cowboy die just below the crimp groove on top of the forward driving band.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    As expected, Pressuretrace shows this load to produced an estimated 6,043psi, 5,000psi lower than SAAMI max 11,000psi

  8. #108
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    Savvy Jack,
    Perhaps in the Future, you might obtain some Swiss fffg Black Powder and Try a load closer to the 40 grains of the originals.
    From my 'playing with volume vs weight in my .25ACP experiments the Swiss BP might allow you to reach the 40 grain load with only 0.1" compression.

    I know Buffalo Arms has carried Swiss BP and I have bought five one pound cans at a time form them, usually I buy several granulations at one purchase, such as 2fg, 3fg, and Null B, at one time. Currently I have on hand Swiss !fg, 2fg, 3fg, 4fg, and Null B in one pound cans that I use for my experimental loads in .25 cal Cartridges. One Grain of Null B under the other granulations seems to give a Very Consistent ignition in my longer straight case Wildcats.

    Chev. William

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chev. William View Post
    Savvy Jack,
    Perhaps in the Future, you might obtain some Swiss fffg Black Powder and Try a load closer to the 40 grains of the originals.
    From my 'playing with volume vs weight in my .25ACP experiments the Swiss BP might allow you to reach the 40 grain load with only 0.1" compression.

    I know Buffalo Arms has carried Swiss BP and I have bought five one pound cans at a time form them, usually I buy several granulations at one purchase, such as 2fg, 3fg, and Null B, at one time. Currently I have on hand Swiss !fg, 2fg, 3fg, 4fg, and Null B in one pound cans that I use for my experimental loads in .25 cal Cartridges. One Grain of Null B under the other granulations seems to give a Very Consistent ignition in my longer straight case Wildcats.

    Chev. William


    I have Swiss FFG. Problem is, when I compress the powder, it expands the brass just enough to not fit in my test barrels tight chamber. Fits in my rifles and revolvers fine. I think what I will do is use some 200gr Magma bullets since they seat shallower that the 427098's do.

  10. #110
    Boolit Buddy Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    The information below is a "food for thought" and not intended as "load data". Use at own risk, don't be stupid!

    Today I shot three of Lyman's Max loads for Group II rifles. The results are interesting.
    Lyman's 49th page 299 lists several loads for strong action rifles. To try and see if I could get some sort of pressure comparison, I used the Pressuretrace II with a strain gauge.

    The manual shows Winchester brass, WLP's, trim to 1.295, AOL of 1.600, Speer 200gr JHP #4425 and Lyman's 427098. I used the JHP bullets but I substituted the 427098 with the 43-215C, the 427098 replica that has a crimp groove forward of the driving band. Lyman's 427098 is 205gr while my 43-215C are 217gr.

    The light blue highlights published powder loads BUT some components may be different such as using CCI-300 primers rather than Winchester WLP's. All seems fairly consistent over-all. I did see a large difference in the two 20.5gr IMR4227 loads. The first (11,332psi) I used CCI-300's then WLP's were used for the second test that resulted in slightly higher pressures...12,602psi. With the exception of those two loads, the rest of Lyman's max Group II loads are highlighted in red. I do not have any Green Dot or Red Dot powders so I did not test those...and probably won't. My chronograph finally died so I am missing some velocities.....I usually load up ten cartridges but since the chronograph died, I only shot 5 each. I will take the other five each and get a velocity later.I just wont be able to merge the added velocity in with a particular graph. I know, there is always something.

    There may be errors and typo's so again, do not use this as "published" loads.
    THIS IS A WORK IN PROGRESS

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  11. #111
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    This is some pretty interesting information from "Unclenick" about 44-40 chamber pressure testing with the strain gauge. Based on this information, my consistent amateurish results, along with other information...I am confident that a responsible load of Reloder 7 is safe for all 44-40 rifles. However, with that we all know that each of us as individuals must make our own decisions of what risks we are willing to take and be willing to accept and/or suffer certain consequences. For those of you that want to stick with published loads, there are no CURRENT published loads for using Reloder 7...BUT there is for other "+P" loads. Lyman's 49th manual lists such "higher pressure" loads on page 299 and page 300.

    Now back to Reloder 7. Old data shows 23.5gr of RL7 for a 240gr lead bullet as well as Remington 2 1/2 primers. The data does not specify which design bullet other than the 240gr. Looking at the chart I posted in my previous post in conjunction with the below quoted information, a 240gr SWC did well with 23.5gr of RL7. A 240gr LRNFP did well with sightly more powder both resulting at below 11,000psi chamber pressures using CCI-300 primers. 25gr of RL7 did well for me too with the 200gr Magma type bullet from Acme as well as the 43-210B (copy of the 427098). Both staying below 11,000psi. Again, use extreme caustion...this is MY amateurish testing results.

    An important item to remember is that some bullets sit deeper than others. The SWC's, Lyman's 427098 and Accurate's 43-2XX usually sit deeper than a Magma/LazerCast design bullets. These deeper seating bullets will usually sit on top of a caseload of RL7 powder in the 25gr area. The grains will very with different bullets....25gr with a shorter skirt Magma bullet will not sit on the powder. For the shorter skirt bullets like the Magma, the bullet will normally sit on 28gr of RL7 and MY results with the 28gr loads produced pressures in the "+P" or just higher than SAAMI's max of 11,000psi.....a range of about 12,000-13,000psi...NOT necessarily safe for Winchester 73" type weak action rifles.

    As a comparison, shown in the chart in the previous post, my use of Lyman's high pressure loads yield much higher results than my loads using RL7. Lyman's high pressures loads using powders like IMR4227, Red Dot, 2400 and Unique result in pressures in the 14,000psi to 16,000psi range and topping out at 21,900psi....NOT TO BE USED in the Winchester 73' type weak action rifles.

    Has been a very educational and well rewarded venture!



    QUOTED...
    ".....44-40 pressures, SAAMI barrels have minimum chambers and nominal bore dimensions. To mimic one, you have to get a barrel blank made to their bore cross-sectional area dimensions and then chamber it with a special reamer ground to produce the SAAMI minimum chamber diameters and not run it in past half a thousandth beyond what produces SAAMI minimum headspace. That's of a thousandth, which can take some skill to do. Standard reamers are commonly made a little wider so they can be resharpened without losing dimensional precision. I don't know if you followed these practices with your test barrel or not, but as Denton Bramwell points out in the article I linked to, most chambers made with standard reamers can expect to produce lower numbers.

    SAAMI test barrels are fired with the cartridge manipulated to ensure the powder has fallen back over the flash hole. They are not tapped against anything to do this, as that packs the powder which can lower its burn rate a little. They want worst case highest pressure, so they just turn the case around to let the powder fall back to the rear, then load it carefully so as to avoid shifting the powder position. If you don't do that, you will get lower numbers than they do.

    For rifle cartridges, SAAMI expects no more than 4% standard deviation in pressure. If your readings produce a higher SD than that, you are probably using a sample too small to be relied on to produce a good SD number. SAAMI uses ten rounds. Our own board member, Statshooter, who is a professor of statistics, says 30 rounds are needed. Denton Bramwell feels 15 rounds give him what he needs to know. So, why does SAAMI just use 10? They accept the SD results produced by 10 can be off on the high side by two standard errors (about another 2.5%), so they have a second number in addition to the MAP called the Maximum Probable Lot Mean, or MPLM, that allows the next sample of 10 from the same lot could produce a standard deviation that was different by that much. So, while the MAP is 11,000 psi, they allow they might get an average as high as 11,300 psi from another random sample of 10 from the same lot, and that is acceptable. They have a still higher number, called the Maximum Probable Sample Mean (MPSM) that allows that bullet bonding with the case and other factors can produce an increase in pressure as a lot of ammunition ages, and for the 44-40 that number is 11,700 psi. So, in effect, they are saying 11,700 psi is the safe limit, but, wait, there's more: All those numbers, the MAP, the MPLM, and the MPSM are averages produced by 10 round samples. The individual rounds making up that average will go above and below that average. SAAMI controls that by allowing what they call the Maximum Extreme Variation (MEV) which is the maximum spread between pressure readings for any of the 10 rounds in any sample taken at any time in the life of the lot. For the 44-40, the MEV is 2300 psi (this has to be calculated per the standard's instructions; it is not in a table). Theoretically, you could have aged loads centered on 11,700 psi whose 10 shots had one round as high as 13770 psi that would still be acceptable to SAAMI (though it is extremely improbable as it requires all 9 other shots to be exactly 11,470 psi). Mostly, though, you don't see individual rounds more than about ten percent above the MAP.

    Even with all of that care, the fact is the absolute pressures are not exactly knowable. SAAMI reference cartridges are made in lots that are sent around to member's test facilities every two years to watch for reading changes. The members use SAAMI standard calibration methods (see the SAAMI standard) and report their results for both pressure and velocity from SAAMI standard test barrels. Interestingly, these vary more than the SAAMI standard deviation limit. The old 1992 standard gave an example for each method firing the same lots of reference loads, and the copper crushers, using targe tables for calibration, produced over 23% difference in average pressure for 10 shots among 9 labs. The transducers, using hydraulic pressure for calibration, produced over 11% difference in 10-shot averages among 7 labs. The reported results for each set of tests from each lab were, in turn, averaged and the final average was declared to be the pressure value that reference lot produced. This way, in effect, the reference lot pressure in the example was evaluated by looking at 90 and 70 total sample shots for the crusher and transducer, respectively. It compensates for average measurement calibration and operation errors, combined, to give a practical expected correct reading.

    That approach may seem a bit tenuous, but understand the objective is to get everyone producing ammunition to the same standard, even if its absolute accuracy is not perfect. When a manufacturer wants to load a million rounds in a particular chambering, he buys a sample of a current lot of reference ammunition for that chambering and fires it in his own test equipment and compares his results to its agreed-upon rated pressure. This gives him a calibration factor for correcting his equipment's output to match the average output produced by the rest of the test labs that measured the lot. In the end, he doesn't load to the raw pressure readings his equipment provides, but to pressure readings corrected by what the reference load told him was his equipment's error factor.

    So, if you wanted to compare your strain gauge results to commercial equipment, you would ideally get some SAAMI reference ammunition to calibrate to. Unfortunately, reference ammunition is only sold to ammunition makers or others who can show a real need to have it. Otherwise, I think, they fear a run on it would occur that could interfere with the industry.

    One thing you could do is ask Buffalo Bore if they use the SAAMI reference ammunition and, assuming they do, you could probably ask them what their calibrated reading was for their most recent lot. You would still have to condition it in the same temperature it was conditioned and tested in by Buffalo Bore and handle the cartridges to keep powder to the rear, but you could get a correction factor to multiply your strain gauge factor by through shooting it and claim to match their pressure fairly closely. That sort of secondary standard approach is probably as close to absolute as amateur equipment can be made to be.

    I notice all Hodgdon's psi-rated loads for the 44-40 exceed the SAAMI MAP, while their CUP-rated loads (in their pistol section) do not. Makes me wonder if someone confused the digits? It's still below the CIP's pressures, but those are measured on a different style of transducer (a channel transducer).

    Regarding CUP ratings in manuals, while the correlation between CUP and psi is too poor for reliably converting one unit to the other over a range of chamberings, within a single chambering the conversion by the ratio of the CUP and psi maps within the SAAMI system is going to be close enough for practical work. That is, 11000 psi divided by 13000 CUP is 0.846 psi/CUP for the 44-40, so you can take the CUP numbers in the Lyman Manual and multiply them by 0.846 to get a reasonable expectation of psi. Conversely, dividing psi by that same number will come close to CUP. ~Unclenick"
    Last edited by Savvy Jack; 11-26-2018 at 10:05 AM.

  12. #112
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    Indian Joe,

    Today I got all my Black Powder data out and refreshed my memory since it has been so long. I got out my RP brass and singled out some 1.296" brass. I resized them. something I don't normally do when shooting but this time I had to in order for them to fit the MGM test barrel's tight chamber. The reason is that when compressing black powder to .21", it can bulge the thinner Winchester and Starline brass.

    So I resized the brass with the RCBS Cowboy die. I expanded the brass using the "M" die for the 44 magnum. I then dumped in 40gr of Swiss FFG, tap settled and then compressed the powder with a modified expander plug. This compacts the powder and then you can get a good measurement on how deep a bullet will seat. This is done with the die rather than the bullet because the seating die will deform the bullet. I used the Lyman 427098 that seats deep so I needed .21" compression of which the bullet crimped on top of the forward driving band rather than above it on the bullet o'give. This gives me an AOL of 1.615" which still works fine for my firearms. I will shoot them first chance I get and report on the pressures I get.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    40gr Swiss FFG unsettled. RP brass

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    Cases on right are tapped to settle and the powder is approx .12" below the case mouth. Cases on left have been compressed with the compression die to approx .32" below the case mouth. The 427098 bullet is usually seated approx .34" just above the forward driving band and crimped on the bullet o'give. However, due to the lack of the extra space that the semi-balloon head cases gave, this is where I make up the difference by crimping on the top side of the forward driving band...about a .05" difference to make up for that lost powder space. That extra space in the semi-balloon head brass held an additional 3grs of BP in my testings.


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    This wood dowel should shed some light on the measurements

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    Here is the powder compression die.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    After I seated the bullets and gave them a slight roll crimp with the RCBS Cowboy...I then ran them through the Redding 44-40 Profile Crimp. Sometimes that roll crimp will cause the brass to bulge out a tad just below the crimp and cause them to not chamber in tight chambers. The profile crimp smooths that bulge back down without distorting the bullet. It can only be used on 44-40 style bullets thus the "profile" name.

  13. #113
    Boolit Buddy Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    Indian Joe, here is another topic you might can get some information from.
    http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/ind...c,39912.0.html

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savvy Jack View Post
    Joe I just can't load up full BP loads for the tight chamber of the test barrel. When I compress the powder .21" it expands the brass just enough to not chamber. Chamber fines in my weapons.

    With that I only loaded up a few Accurate Mold 43-215C bullets in Winchester brass with 32gr/w - 35gr/V of Kik FFFG with a .10" compression.

    Kik FFFG
    32gr/weight - 35gr/Volume
    .10" compression
    43-215C .429dia/ .665 length
    Winchester Brass
    1.295 Case
    1.602 AOL
    WLP
    Seating depth is .358

    Bullet roll crimped with an RCBS Cowboy die just below the crimp groove on top of the forward driving band.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Savvy Jack,
    I have been thinking back on your problem of compressed Charges 'growing ' your cases so they will not chamber in your Test Barrel's Minimum size Chamber.

    Have you considered making o rbuying a Sizing Die for 44-40 made to SAAMI Maximum Cartridge Size and without a expander or depriming punch installed?
    Then you could run the compressed Charge loaded Cartridge into this sizing die and force the Case back to within Maximum cartridge dimensions, which according to SAAMI drawings would always fit a SAAMI Minimum size chamber.

    Chev. William

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chev. William View Post
    Savvy Jack,
    I have been thinking back on your problem of compressed Charges 'growing ' your cases so they will not chamber in your Test Barrel's Minimum size Chamber.

    Have you considered making o rbuying a Sizing Die for 44-40 made to SAAMI Maximum Cartridge Size and without a expander or depriming punch installed?
    Then you could run the compressed Charge loaded Cartridge into this sizing die and force the Case back to within Maximum cartridge dimensions, which according to SAAMI drawings would always fit a SAAMI Minimum size chamber.

    Chev. William
    I may could but aside from the GMG barrel, I really have no further use for one since the fit in my rifles and most revolvers.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savvy Jack View Post
    Indian Joe,

    Today I got all my Black Powder data out and refreshed my memory since it has been so long. I got out my RP brass and singled out some 1.296" brass. I resized them. something I don't normally do when shooting but this time I had to in order for them to fit the MGM test barrel's tight chamber. The reason is that when compressing black powder to .21", it can bulge the thinner Winchester and Starline brass.

    So I resized the brass with the RCBS Cowboy die. I expanded the brass using the "M" die for the 44 magnum. I then dumped in 40gr of Swiss FFG, tap settled and then compressed the powder with a modified expander plug. This compacts the powder and then you can get a good measurement on how deep a bullet will seat. This is done with the die rather than the bullet because the seating die will deform the bullet. I used the Lyman 427098 that seats deep so I needed .21" compression of which the bullet crimped on top of the forward driving band rather than above it on the bullet o'give. This gives me an AOL of 1.615" which still works fine for my firearms. I will shoot them first chance I get and report on the pressures I get.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    40gr Swiss FFG unsettled. RP brass

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    Cases on right are tapped to settle and the powder is approx .12" below the case mouth. Cases on left have been compressed with the compression die to approx .32" below the case mouth. The 427098 bullet is usually seated approx .34" just above the forward driving band and crimped on the bullet o'give. However, due to the lack of the extra space that the semi-balloon head cases gave, this is where I make up the difference by crimping on the top side of the forward driving band...about a .05" difference to make up for that lost powder space. That extra space in the semi-balloon head brass held an additional 3grs of BP in my testings.


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	47268548_1063844913796091_9019945369055789056_n.jpg 
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ID:	231406
    This wood dowel should shed some light on the measurements

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	47165478_1063742793806303_8106310562821963776_n.jpg 
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ID:	231408
    Here is the powder compression die.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	47220543_1063844910462758_8989994169803997184_n.jpg 
Views:	15 
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ID:	231409
    After I seated the bullets and gave them a slight roll crimp with the RCBS Cowboy...I then ran them through the Redding 44-40 Profile Crimp. Sometimes that roll crimp will cause the brass to bulge out a tad just below the crimp and cause them to not chamber in tight chambers. The profile crimp smooths that bulge back down without distorting the bullet. It can only be used on 44-40 style bullets thus the "profile" name.

    Jack
    (this is old but all I have) feb 2016 I chronoed my 44/40 - rifle - 40 grains homemade powder (yeah heavy compression load but got it in) under a 205 grain RCBS boolit = 1355FPS ---- am certain my powder is better now than then -- by how much better is a WA guess ?.
    I would not be surprised to see you get 1425FPS or so with a 40 grain load of Swiss in a 24 inch barrel rifle ? if so - tis interesting what would be the pressure generated?
    ps anytime I tell ya grains ---its by weight on a good balance scale - no such thing as grains volume so I dont do that ....... yeah I know everybody wants to argue about this - I establish a suitable load by volume, cut a measure, then, weight it for future reference.
    I have a 44magnum die set for the old super simplex presses and has been real handy loading 44/40 - one of those dies (the boolit seating die I think) is just right size to reduce the 44/40 case body just a whisker if they get a little oversize - just kisses it back a little and works fine on loaded rounds too.

  17. #117
    Boolit Buddy Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    Great information!!

    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    Jack
    ps anytime I tell ya grains ---its by weight on a good balance scale - no such thing as grains volume..
    Me too. I weigh all my BP loads. I add or reduce as needed to get a particulate powder compression with a particular bullet. Note what it is for that batch of powder and load away!! I have been guilty to say 40gr/w meaning weight or 40/v meaning volume so some of those other folks understand the difference.

  18. #118
    Boolit Buddy Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    Indian Joe,
    I ran across some old gel test photos. Part of some of what John Kort sent me to test for him.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  19. #119
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    A very interesting thing happened today. I was finishing up my pressure testing today and shot a lot of groups. I decided to shoot some more black powder loads as well. This time, however, I used some original BP brass cases. A variation of Western, REM-UMC and WRA cases. four of the WRA cases used small pistol primers.

    First, I shot 15 modern RP cases and 5 Winchester cases. I used 39gr of Swiss FFG in the Winchester cases and 40gr in everything else. 39gr of Swiss FFG gave me an average of 1,221fps from my 20" test barrel producing 8,843 PSI. The 40gr in the RP cases resulted in 1,257fps and 8,648 psi. Here is the kicker.....

    I used 40gr of Swiss FFG in 16 original semi-balloon head cases of which four were small pistol primers. Same powder, same bullets, basically the same primers.

    1,373fps @ 14,100psi!!!!!! HMMMmmmmmmm!!!!!!


    On another note, to include the BP tests, I shot 42 pressure testing groups of at least 10 shots per group over the past few months.
    Included are all of Lyman's 49th, page 299 and 300, MAX loads for both Group I and Group II rifles using Unique, IMR4227 and 2400 with the published bullets, primers, case lengths and AOL's.

    All of my Group I loads ranged between 6,594psi to 9,389psi
    My "Control", Buffalo Bore's 44-40 "Heavy" was set to 11,300psi.
    All of my Group II loads came in between 11,363psi to 17,837 psi

    What I failed to do was shoot all loads at the same out side air temps. The "Control" was shot in about 55 deg, some loads shot around 35 deg and the rest also around 55deg. This does change things a little but not too awful much. Some could increase as much as 1,500psi and those shot in 55deg could increase in 90deg weather.

    However, out of all of the loads I have ever come up with on my own, only TWO were higher than the Lyman's MAX pressure results of 17,830psi. Those two were 19,500psi and 19,628psi.

    Only one Reloder 7 load came in over 13,500psi and it was a 240gr LRNFL bullet and it achieved 1,446fps.
    Other 240gr LRNFP bullets with a lighter load stayed below 11,000psi

    Most case capacity Reloder 7 loads stayed between 10,000psi and 13,000psi. Even a caseload of Trailboss surpassed SAAMI max out to 15,182psi

    The Pressuretrace II system was well worth the $$$ for a little piece of mind as well as closing the mouths of a few Mr, been handloading for 55 years, Know-It-Alls.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savvy Jack View Post
    A very interesting thing happened today. I was finishing up my pressure testing today and shot a lot of groups. I decided to shoot some more black powder loads as well. This time, however, I used some original BP brass cases. A variation of Western, REM-UMC and WRA cases. four of the WRA cases used small pistol primers.

    First, I shot 15 modern RP cases and 5 Winchester cases. I used 39gr of Swiss FFG in the Winchester cases and 40gr in everything else. 39gr of Swiss FFG gave me an average of 1,221fps from my 20" test barrel producing 8,843 PSI. The 40gr in the RP cases resulted in 1,257fps and 8,648 psi. Here is the kicker.....

    I used 40gr of Swiss FFG in 16 original semi-balloon head cases of which four were small pistol primers. Same powder, same bullets, basically the same primers.

    1,373fps @ 14,100psi!!!!!! HMMMmmmmmmm!!!!!!


    On another note, to include the BP tests, I shot 42 pressure testing groups of at least 10 shots per group over the past few months.
    Included are all of Lyman's 49th, page 299 and 300, MAX loads for both Group I and Group II rifles using Unique, IMR4227 and 2400 with the published bullets, primers, case lengths and AOL's.

    All of my Group I loads ranged between 6,594psi to 9,389psi
    My "Control", Buffalo Bore's 44-40 "Heavy" was set to 11,300psi.
    All of my Group II loads came in between 11,363psi to 17,837 psi

    What I failed to do was shoot all loads at the same out side air temps. The "Control" was shot in about 55 deg, some loads shot around 35 deg and the rest also around 55deg. This does change things a little but not too awful much. Some could increase as much as 1,500psi and those shot in 55deg could increase in 90deg weather.

    However, out of all of the loads I have ever come up with on my own, only TWO were higher than the Lyman's MAX pressure results of 17,830psi. Those two were 19,500psi and 19,628psi.

    Only one Reloder 7 load came in over 13,500psi and it was a 240gr LRNFL bullet and it achieved 1,446fps.
    Other 240gr LRNFP bullets with a lighter load stayed below 11,000psi

    Most case capacity Reloder 7 loads stayed between 10,000psi and 13,000psi. Even a caseload of Trailboss surpassed SAAMI max out to 15,182psi

    The Pressuretrace II system was well worth the $$$ for a little piece of mind as well as closing the mouths of a few Mr, been handloading for 55 years, Know-It-Alls.
    Jack
    just for fun here (I have no science for any of this - some practical common sense, backed in places by chrono testing loads)
    So its all supposition
    1) blackpowder needs barrel time to do its stuff - yes the initial pressure spike is quick but - short barrels + coarse powder = we dont get the max out of it

    sidebar - the mounted cowboy action people - first time I saw this I thought - crazy - gal races down the arena shooting balloons on a stick away from the crowd - yeah ok, safe enough with shot charges, but she wheeled that pony, pulled another gun and helter skelter back shooting towards the crowd - thats a no go - so a bit of research and finds they rely on the unburnt part of a blackpowder charge to bust the balloon

    2) fifteen years back (or so) myth abounded and everybody (nearly) in the long range game was recommending Federal magnum rifle primers for blackpowder loads - I fell for it even tho it made no sense at the time - still got several boxes of those primers to use up someplace where it doesent matter because my gut feeling turned out right and and all that extra blast did was open my groups up some. (enough to see it)

    So what if?? the lesser ignition charge of those small pistol primers is giving a bit more barrel time - you only have a 20 inch test barrel? and FF is too coarse for best results in a short barrel - a little more barrel time for the charge to do its stuff ?

    We get significantly increased velocity from our 24 inch Uberti compared to the 20 inch carbine (44/40 - 200grain boolit - FFFg powder) - I reckon you need at least a 30 inch tube to get the best out of a decent charge of FFg (proly needs more than that) - we see this in reverse with a 22RF - 18inch barrel is max - 24 inch sees a significant velocity loss - that load ran out of steam.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check