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Thread: 44-40 +p?

  1. #121
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    I'm with Indian Joe here. BP develops full velocity and pressure by exploiting adiabatic expansion from longer barrels. Only Swiss BP is as good as old Army A5 which was used for .45-70 Trapdoor, Schofield and Navy line throwing loads into the Vietnam era. When I was an enlisted rating we still had converted Springfield trapdoors used as line throwers, with 26-inch barrels, which began to be replaced by H&Rs in the Zumwalt era. I used to pull a few of the wads, expand the case mouth, seat Remington 405-grain softpoints over the BP charge with a blob of lithium grease and had the ship's machinist braze an M1 front sight and open rear from an M1911 pistol on them, cutting down the blade to zero and they were good enough to pop mines at 200 yards off the fantail. Great fun!
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  2. #122
    Boolit Buddy Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    I'm with Indian Joe here. BP develops full velocity and pressure by exploiting adiabatic expansion from longer barrels. Only Swiss BP is as good as old Army A5 which was used for .45-70 Trapdoor, Schofield and Navy line throwing loads into the Vietnam era.
    All but one black powder loads were between 6,043 and 8,843psi...1,100fps to 1,221fps from the shorter 20" carbine length barrel. One group using Original balloon semi-head cases produced a surprised 14,100 avg psi and 1,373fps.

    10 shot groups

    32gr Kik was 6,043psi no velocity reading (217gr 43-215C)
    40gr Skirmish FFFG was 8,900psi (200gr Big Lube Bullet)
    40gr Swiss FFG was 1,257fps and 8,648psi (Lyman 210gr 427098 Bullet)
    39gr Swiss FFG was 1,221fps and 8,843psi (205gr 43-208A Bullet)
    40gr Swiss FFG was 1,373fps and 14,100psi (210gr Lyman 427098 Bullet)

    Curiosity is killing me about the semi-balloon head cases producing such results. I may have to visit that again but I am out of Swiss FFG and don't plan on getting any more. I have some Goex FFFG I may try instead.

  3. #123
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    I think you might still have a calibration issue with this barrel. What does factory ammo do?
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  4. #124
    Boolit Buddy Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    I think you might still have a calibration issue with this barrel. What does factory ammo do?
    Out of over 430 shots, the only abnormal group was the one black powder group...wierd

    Ed here is my report...so to speak.

    https://castbulletassoc.org/forum/th...gauge-testing/

  5. #125
    Boolit Bub Cast_outlaw's Avatar
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    Could the semi-balloon cases seal the chamber better because they are weaker?

  6. #126
    Boolit Buddy Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cast_outlaw View Post
    Could the semi-balloon cases seal the chamber better because they are weaker?
    Could be, whatever it is I like it!! I am going to load them up again but I only have Goex FFFg and Kik. We will see if this was a fluke or if It will repeat itself.

  7. #127
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savvy Jack View Post
    Could be, whatever it is I like it!! I am going to load them up again but I only have Goex FFFg and Kik. We will see if this was a fluke or if It will repeat itself.
    hMMMM ---- I went back and re read .....I had focussed on the bit about small pistol primers thinking that may have made the difference - but second time round ????? were all the balloon head cases small pistol primers or only four of them ?

    Wonder does the whole ingition train change by heaps when the primer pocket protrudes a tenth inch into the base of the charge rather than flat at the base of it ???

  8. #128
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    hMMMM ---- I went back and re read .....I had focussed on the bit about small pistol primers thinking that may have made the difference - but second time round ????? were all the balloon head cases small pistol primers or only four of them ?

    Wonder does the whole ingition train change by heaps when the primer pocket protrudes a tenth inch into the base of the charge rather than flat at the base of it ???
    I think you are onto something there.

    A mini flash-tube, which exposes more surface area of the charge at once to the fire!
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  9. #129
    Boolit Buddy Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    I think you are onto something there.

    A mini flash-tube, which exposes more surface area of the charge at once to the fire!
    I really hope this was a fluke BUT this next time I will separate all like brass and those small pistol primers. Looking back at the individual results they did not change anything much and all 27 shots averaged 14,100psi.

    My RP cases have less volumeteric area so 40gr of compressed Swiss FFG causes the 427098 to be crimped at the bottom of the forward driving band. 40gr of Swiss FFG compressed in the semi-balloon head cases crimps the bullet flush with the top of the forward driving band, not over it.

    I am out of Swiss so I have to run Goex FFFG for this followup test. I know its still like apples and oranges but...........

    RP cases about 41gr H20, Starline about 42gr H2O and the Semi-balloon head cases are about 44gr H20

    I always measure 40gr by weight and then check compression. I never compress over .21".....I can't

  10. #130
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savvy Jack View Post
    I really hope this was a fluke BUT this next time I will separate all like brass and those small pistol primers. Looking back at the individual results they did not change anything much and all 27 shots averaged 14,100psi.

    My RP cases have less volumeteric area so 40gr of compressed Swiss FFG causes the 427098 to be crimped at the bottom of the forward driving band. 40gr of Swiss FFG compressed in the semi-balloon head cases crimps the bullet flush with the top of the forward driving band, not over it.

    I am out of Swiss so I have to run Goex FFFG for this followup test. I know its still like apples and oranges but...........

    RP cases about 41gr H20, Starline about 42gr H2O and the Semi-balloon head cases are about 44gr H20

    I always measure 40gr by weight and then check compression. I never compress over .21".....I can't


    You guys are gonna have me scratching back through my scrap brass bin (lucky I dont throw stuff out when I should) I can remember scrapping 20 or more old Dominion brand cases with the semi solid head - nothing wrong with em except old age .........

  11. #131
    Boolit Buddy Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    You guys are gonna have me scratching back through my scrap brass bin (lucky I dont throw stuff out when I should) I can remember scrapping 20 or more old Dominion brand cases with the semi solid head - nothing wrong with em except old age .........
    Anneal them if they are old and brittle.

  12. #132
    Boolit Grand Master


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    If the psi measurement was correct it could very well be, at the psi levels you are measuring, simply the difference in the brass cases. The very few balloon head 44-40 cases I have are quite a bit thinner in the web/body area which is under the gauge in your set up (a correct setup BTW). Some cases require more psi to expand to exert sufficient pressure on the chamber wall for "stain" measurement. The thinner/softer the case in that area of measurement the higher the psi reading can be because the less psi is contained by the case itself.

    To find out simply pull the bullets/powder from 10 factory loads and load them into the balloon cases. Test both the reloaded 44-40s along with a test of the same factory. All else being equal the balloon head case loads should give less psi because the case volume is greater. If the psi is equal or greater than the factory load psi then the balloon head brass is softer/weaker and that is why the initial psi reading is greater......because the balloon head cases are not containing as much psi as the newer solid head cases are.

    I am not familiar with the data input for the Pressure Trace system. Is there "offset" data put into the it for the steel type used in test barrel?
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
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  13. #133
    Boolit Buddy Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    hmmmmmmm

  14. #134
    Boolit Buddy Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    My Marlin 1894CB 260 yard shots this morning.


    Video replaced with a High Definition version
    Last edited by Savvy Jack; 12-29-2018 at 06:39 PM.

  15. #135
    Boolit Buddy Savvy Jack's Avatar
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    Here is another one from this morning. I'd try further but this is as far as the range goes!!

    Shot 50 rounds this morning, 100, 200 and 265 yards.

    265yard target, grouped low...pulled it up and over enough to land quite a few on the "gong"
    Click image for larger version. 

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    video gong hits
    Click image for larger version. 

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    265 yard "gong" video...5 hits 1 miss.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check