Bored - so here's 3 more favorites

[Mike Venturino]

I'm bored tonight so I'm posting a photo of three more of my favorite military rifles. Top is Winchester M1 circa 1943 and its been examined right down to taking the pins out and its all Winchester. Middle one is a "faux" M1A1. Instead of paying 3K for a "real" M1A1 I bought a Saginaw barreled action in a new reproduction stock. Bottom is another Saginaw barreled action converted to M2 with the M1 overstamped. All three are good cast bullet shooters - at least as good as with jacketed.

One of those DCM M1 Carbines was my first centerfire long gun back in '65 so I guess I'm returning to my "roots."

[StarMetal]

I'm bored tonight so I'm posting a photo of three more of my favorite military rifles. Top is Winchester M1 circa 1943 and its been examined right down to taking the pins out and its all Winchester. Middle one is a "faux" M1A1. Instead of paying 3K for a "real" M1A1 I bought a Saginaw barreled action in a new reproduction stock. Bottom is another Saginaw barreled action converted to M2 with the M1 overstamped. All three are good cast bullet shooters - at least as good as with jacketed.

One of those DCM M1 Carbines was my first centerfire long gun back in '65 so I guess I'm returning to my "roots."

Mike,

I'll bet you watched Combat on TV too huh? Nice collection. I'm jealous of your full auto guns.

Joe

[Mike Venturino]

Joe: you are absolutely right. That Tuesday night in September of 1962 when COMBAT came on I was in the floor there in front of the TV. I was 13 and in the 8th grade.

Believe it or not I stumbled onto that Winchester/M1 in a combination gun store, liquor store, and gas station here in Montana.

[45nut]

Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms,, the nearly perfect store.

Nice guns Mike, I had a Winchester M1 Carbine.........*sigh*

[NickSS]

I have owned a lot of carbines ( I wish I had them today as I owned at least one of every maker product. I sold them when the price got to what I considered ridiculous but only a third of today's prices. I looked at the originals becoming available with thought of getting one but I could not get myself to pay the price for a very warn gun. I did buy a Auto Ordinance M1. It has no collectors value but I can shoot it and not worry about it. It shoots darn well too in fact better than any GI one I ever owned as well as several Plainfield and Iver Johnson ones I have owned as well. Last time I took it out I shot five five shot groups that averaged right at 1.25 inches at 100 yards.

[Farmall 1066]

Making me jealous, all I have is a Universal. Never should have got it, just makes me want a "good" one. Mine is "minute of old refrigerator" at 100 yds on a good day! Roughest barrel I have ever seen, so I'm afraid to even try cast in it.

Andy

[EOD3]

Joe: you are absolutely right. That Tuesday night in September of 1962 when COMBAT came on I was in the floor there in front of the TV. I was 13 and in the 8th grade.

Believe it or not I stumbled onto that Winchester/M1 in a combination gun store, liquor store, and gas station here in Montana.

IIRC, Vic Morrow was SGT Striker??? One of my favorite shows.

[Charlie Sometimes]

I looked at an Inland today in a pawn shop- it had Essex, Gardner, MA stamped on the barrel perpendicular to the Inland markings overlaped.
It had a bayonet lug, and military wood stock with the armory markings visible, but someone had refinished it and rounded the stock badly where the stamped steel butt plate laps the wood.
Shiney finish, too.
Funny thing about it- it had tick marks on the underside of the forearm (8 or 9) that they didn't remove either.
Maybe someone was keeping track?
Also had 15 magazines with it 20's and 30's.
I forget the price.

I already have an original in my safe that I don't shoot much, so I don't really need another.

[StarMetal]

IIRC, Vic Morrow was SGT Striker??? One of my favorite shows.

Vic Morrow was SGT Saunders.

Joe

[EOD3]

Vic Morrow was SGT Saunders.

Joe

They say memory is the second thing to go but I can't remember what the first thing was.

[stubshaft]

Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms,, the nearly perfect store.

Nice guns Mike, I had a Winchester M1 Carbine.........*sigh*

45nut, I have a Winchester Carbine I traded a Rockola for it.

[Potsy]

Grandad's got a .30 Carbine. A post-war model that's kinda pretty and is accurate enough for me to have killed a couple of groundhogs at 75-100 yards with when I was a teenager.
Fedral Softpoints were pretty hard on them.
A friends Grandfather always said he never understood the .30 Carbine's reputation for lack of stopping power. One of his very few quotes about his time in combat was "every Jap I shot with mine went right down".
I never understood it either. A .30 Carbine has twice the bullet weight, two thirds the velocity, and a fourth more frontal area than the .223.
Always wondered if it wasn't a bullet construction thing.
Not to hijack the thread, but does anyone have any input on that?
They re-ran "Combat!"on Saturday mornings when I was a kid (mid 80's). Loved it.

[BarryinIN]

A friends Grandfather always said he never understood the .30 Carbine's reputation for lack of stopping power. One of his very few quotes about his time in combat was "every Jap I shot with mine went right down".

I have a theory on that. It's probably wrong, but I have it.

I wonder if a lot of it had to do with where it was used, and who it was used against.
I've noticed that it seems like most of the complaints I've read or heard were from the Korean War. There were complaints from WWII, but I read and hear more failure stories from Korea. The comments from Korea run much more toward hatred than the near-even split between love/hate in WWII.

And that made think about this:

In the Pacific in WWII, the opponents were often half-starved, ragged-clothed Japanese. They were often suffering from Malaria and other tropical diseases from having already spent months or years on some remote island. They couldn't have weighed very much or been very healthy.

In Korea, the opponents were North Koreans (at first) or Chinese. In the case of the Chinese, they entered the war quickly and were probably in pretty decent physical health and condition. They were often whipped into a frenzy by either opium or trumpets or whatever it took. They wore those heavy insulated uniforms that absorbed bullet impacts.
I also wondered if those bulky uniforms made them look larger than they were, which made some US soldiers think they hit them when the bullet actually passed through nothing but clothing. That might explain some of the "I hit him but he didn't even slow down" stories.

I just think the effects of any bullet on an already half-dead Japanese and on a healthy, opium-fueled, thickly-clothed Korean, will be different. I'd expect the Japanese soldier in that condition would be easier to stop than the NK or Chinese solider, no matter what you used.
And that could explain a lot of what I hear and read.

But in the European Theatre of WWII, I don't see such a strong love/hate pattern. I just don't seem to see or hear as many stories about the Carbine either way there. Audie Murphy loved it. Patton hated it. Some didn't like it because it didn't have the range. But the opinions don't seem so firm or as opposing as in the Pacific.
I think a lot of that is because it wasn't used as much in the ETO as in the Pacific. At least, that's how it looks from photographs and from talking to people. (I mean in the regular infantry. The Airborne, MPs, tankers, etc had the need for the Carbine either for compactness or reduced need for a rifle). It seems like the pictures of infantry show mostly Garands.
In fact, I've read in a few places that troops in Europe avoided Carbines just because they drew fire. It started out that platoon leaders and officers had Carbines, and the Germans quickly picked up on that. Whether that changed, or if the Germans ever got the word, I don't know, but I have read a few books that talk about that.

So I wonder if the reason I see less about the Carbine's worthiness or worthlessness in the ETO was because there weren't as many in use there. I have never seen any numbers for this, and don't know if there are any.
I am pretty sure that if given the choice, I would be less likely to choose a Carbine if I were in the ETO than if I were in the Pacific.

[Snapping Twig]

My FIL carried it in the Pacific and the Aleutians - Army COE.

He never said a kind word about it - ever.

Near the end of his days, I showed him my Mini 30 - an early version with a .308 bore and the 150g ammo I load for it.

We agreed that this was the rifle he should have carried - or at least the round his carbine should have chambered.

He told of several occasions where he was either out of range to return fire or hit and did not disable the sniper.

I don't own one, never have, but if I understand correctly it is a .30 caliber bullet of @ 110g and has the power of a .357 - like a pistol in rifle form, easier to shoot for support personnel.

With that in mind, it appears to be proper for its intended purpose. Looking like a rifle makes folks want it to be one, which causes the issues as far as I can tell.

[mto7464]

I read online (so it must be true) that if the carbine is marked m2 it is still considered a machine gun. If yours is so marked I would look into it and if it is true be very careful.
Here is a link where it is discussed.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=240380

Of course this is me assuming yours is not a registered m2.

[Mike Venturino]

mto7464: Its not quite clear as to whom you are addressing your comment. If its me then my M2 is duly registered.

MLV

[mto7464]

Mike,
The comment was directed at you and like I said I was assuming it was not a registered m2. I know there are a lot of m2 marked carbines out there that are not registered but also are not fully auto anymore.

I also made this comment without knowing who you were, I understand you are a gun columnist.

Anyway I was just trying to help.

I plan on going by the bookstore and check and see if they have the hand loading magazine that you have an article in.

MIKE

[Mike Venturino]

Mike: I appreciate the thought anyway. Back in 2008 I bought six WW2 and Korean War era subguns and the M2. All are registered with all the tees crossed and eyes dotted.

Just for information way when you're at the bookstore if you pick up any copy of HANDLOADER, RIFLE, GUNS, or THE AMERICAN HANDGUNNER there will be both a column and a feature by me.

Thanks
Mike V.

[KCSO]

My great Uncle traned and qualified in the States with a Garand and when he got off the boat in England he was re issued an early carbine. He thought it was a *** compared to the Garand and hated it but it was due to the safety. The early ones had a push button safety and the green troops had a problem with pushing the safety button only to find they had dropped out the magazine. This led to my Uncle's first bronze star when later in the hedgerows a german tried to drop a grenade into their 1/2 track and the Lt. dropped the mag out of his carbine. Uncle had to pop up and shoot the German with his 45 and killed him just as he was tossing the grenade. He caught part of the shrapnel from the grenade and ended up with a purple heart, a bronze star and was demoted from Sgt to Private when he called the Lt a dumb SOB after it was over.

In 1955 Dad carried an M2 as a patrol rifle (New Idea HUH) with the Sheriff's Office. They got them surplus from the govt. And he thought highly of the little gun for duty work but around the farm it was pretty uselesless as it was too much gun for small game and not enough for anything over coyote with the ammo available at that time. I have shot several variations of carbine from mil surp to universal and also a Johnson 22/30 but was never impressed with the accuracy or lack ther of and so I have never hankered to own one. We tested one when we got patrol rifles in 2003 and where they failed for us was on overpenetration as compared to the 223. A223 bullet will break up in just about any solid wall but the carbine had more penetration than the 9mm.

[oldhickory]

I picked up my latest carbine about 3yrs ago from a guy who needed money to pay for hs new Mustang. I paid for it without really looking close at it, it's a Underwood, I figured, big deal, it's just for plinking around anyway. I got it home and started to realy look it over and discovered it's the 69th carbine Underwood made! Barrel date, 10-42. If not first day production, darn close!