Ted Williams Rifle.

[Uncle R.]

Hi all:
A co-worker recently offered me a .30-06 for sale - when I asked him "what kind" he said "bolt action" and when I asked "what brand" he said "Ted Williams."
On inspection it appears that the rifle is a post-64 model 70 with minor differences in wood and trim. 98% blue and a mildly scruffy (maybe 80%) stock finish. Bore looks perfect. The price was dirt cheap, and thinking it could make a perfect beginner's deer rifle for one of my boys I bought it.
The rifle came with a Bushnell Sportview 4x scope which is about as cheap and nasty as a scope can get. Initial testing with DCM (Greek) ball ammo pulled from the Garand clips showed TWO distinct groups forming at 100 yards - maybe 5 or 6 inches apart. Hmmm...
Not too concerned at first I pulled off that nasty Bushnell and mounted a Weaver V10 which is of course a much nicer scope. The next round of testing showed two VERY nice VERY tight groups forming at 100 yards - maybe 5 or 6 inches apart. Weird...
The spread between the two groups is mostly vertical. The lower group forms at POA and the upper group is roughly 5 inches above and perhaps 1 or 2 inches to the right.
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I've read and heard of such things but never experienced them before. Scope bases and rings are tight - action feels tight in stock. I'd guess that I'm looking at a bedding issue but I haven't even removed the wood yet. Any suggestions as to what I should check for? Anyone had this problem before?
Thanks:
Uncle R.

[felix]

Yep, bedding first. ... felix

[Geraldo]

Does it shoot the lower group first, then the second, higher group? Or does it shoot back and forth between the two groups?

[Trifocals]

I would suggest that if the rifle groups the lower group first it may be caused by barrel heating. Try putting a shim of some type of plastic material between the forward part of the forearm and the barrel. The shim should be thick enough to exert upward pressure on the barrel. This may help. LOL

[Dave Berryhill]

Just FYI, here is a cross-reference list of "house brand" firearms and the actual make/model:
http://www.e-gunparts.com/crossref.asp

You'd be surprised at how many different firearms Sears has sold over the years.

[Uncle R.]

Does it shoot the lower group first, then the second, higher group? Or does it shoot back and forth between the two groups?

It's back-and-forth which is a weird thing to see. It doesn't always switch between shots - might do 'em in a random pattern - but it's NOT a barrel heating thing. The last shot is just as likely to be in one group as the other. The frustrating thing is the groups (especially the "main" POA group) are very nice - like MOA with that HXP ball. Get rid of the odd flyers and it would be quite a rifle. If you can can call it "flyers" when they keep going to the same place...
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[docone31]

The fastest bedding I ever did, was to take a piece of inner tube, cut it into a circle, punch an hole in the center, and install on the forward reciever hold down.
I did an old Winchester years ago that way. It shot pretty well. It lifts the muzzle just enough to give the rifle movement and still hold it down.

[waksupi]

Just FYI, here is a cross-reference list of "house brand" firearms and the actual make/model:
http://www.e-gunparts.com/crossref.asp

You'd be surprised at how many different firearms Sears has sold over the years.

Very interesting, Dave!

[largom]

Yep, bedding first. ... felix

I would steel bed the receiver with Devcon or Brownell's steel bed and free float the barrel.
Larry

[rhbrink]

1+ with largom

[376Steyr]

I'd try it with some different ammo before I started working on the stock. Maybe two different lots of ammo were mixed on the Garand clips?

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Here's something quick, simply and easy you can do. From the front of the receiver to the front end of the stock, take a wooden dowel and some sandpaper and sand a bit out of the barrel channel. Do this until you can pull a dollar bill from the front end of the stock to the receiver.

This is a basic barrel free float and will address any tight spots in the barrel channel. If that does not do the trick, steel bed the receiver, as it sounds like you may have "rocking" of the receiver in the stock.

You might also need to tighten the receiver screws to settle the receiver in the stock.

As a side note, it's fairly easy to strip that stock and refinish with something like Behr 600 to a nice oil finish.

Regards,

Dave

[shooterg]

Bedding is always good - but I'd try some different ammo first anyway. Most GI ball I've tried(LC69,LC72,Greek) in bolt guns did not fare well, maybe a little better in a 1903A3 but just awful in a Rem 700. The old white box match seemed to do better than ball for me, but commercial and handloads were definitely an upgrade.

[Sensai]

I agree with 376Steyr, I wouldn't start messing with the rifle until I had tried it with some known consistent ammo. Usually if it's loose bedding you will get strings, not seperate groups. This sounds more like two different ammo lots.

[Uncle R.]

Thanks to all of you for your responses. The Greek HXP ammo has been very accurate in my Garand, giving groups that I never thought I could achieve with iron sights, especially GI sights. I'm talking around 2 MOA which (using MY old-duffer eyes) seems dangneer miraculous. I doubt that ammo would degrade to 6 MOA in a scoped bolt gun although I suppose it's possible.
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I actually did try green-box 165 gr. Remington factory loads also which did substantially worse than the HXP giving more nearly random 6 MOA scatterings instead of the two distinct groups. I frankly wasn't surprised since "On Sale At Farm & Barn" grade factory Remington has disappointed me more than once over the last few years by delivering 3 MOA (or worse) performance in known accurate rifles. Put two 3-4 MOA groups six inches apart on a target and they WILL look pretty much like random scattering.
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Anyway - it's a moot point now, I've officially set it aside and started frying more important fish. Wisconsin's "traditional" 9 day deer season is approaching, and time grows short. I fortunately have other rifles to use this year and the boy allotted to THIS rifle is still a couple of years from hunting. There will be time enough for re-bedding and free-floating and maybe even refinishing the Ted Williams rifle - AFTER we bring home a couple of trophy bucks this November.
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(Pretty optimistic, huh?)
<GRIN>
Uncle R.

[TCLouis]

Think that is the same Searschester I have.
Model 70 parts fit just fine.

[oscarflytyer]

Assume the rifle has sling swivels. If so, check that the front sling swivel screw is not set too deep and hitting the barrel. on my Win M70 FW, the front sling swivel screw was hitting the barrel. It shot ALL OVER THE PLACE! Would mostly string vertical 5-6" over 5 shots, and throw some for good measure.

Once I figured out that the swivel screw was hitting/pinging the bbl at each shot, AND it got much worse as it heated up, all I did was shim the sling swivel screw so it could not contact the bbl. Problem fixed!

[stephen perry]

Consider your set up at the Range. Without the what ifs here is how you should set up for doing an accuracy check on a hunting rifle.

First tighten all scope screws manadatory. Especially since you changed scopes. Make darnn sure the scope base is on correctly if any question take the base off clean up and mount base with locktite on the srews. Clean screws good before the locktite. For scope rings I like to snug them up then loosen same side on both rings and position cross hairs to square. I use a tall showcase in my garage to align the vertical cross hair.

At the Range assuming you have cleaned your barrel beforehand and shooting 100 yd set up with sand bags if you have no rest. Ideally 200 is the place to shoot a hunting rifle but if you don't have the time a group 1 1/2-2 inch above your aiming point will do the job in the field. If you using the orange Hoppes rest or a lead sled set these aside and go with sand bags, Use four in the front 2 crossed 2 the other way firmly position them square with the front of the bench. For a back bag 1 firm one should do, use 2 if needed. Position your gun in the bags so that you, the gun, and the bags are square to the target. For your target frame use a level and square your target. Use small sticks or whatever to shove between target frame and holder, check with square again. Use targets that allow you to see yout hits. The big black circle is wothless uness you have a spotting scope to check hits. I use blank target paper and 1" black dots for a hunting rifle.

At the bench shoot your first 3 shots to the side. If they all touch or within an inch go for it. I use wind flags and mirage paper but this what BR shooters do. For a hunting rifle shoot as if in the field. No flags no mirage paper. But you see wind out there as it moves things in front of you and mirage can be seen going right or left on the target. Good trigger pull is mandatory to keep shots together. My Modrl 70 has a 4 lb trigger pull yours too. You can shoot well at 4 lb but you must be consistent. Hang with the gun for all your shots. Staying close on the stock is good and the beating will feel less and bandaids won't be necessary on your face. Be realistic for a new gun to you placing 3 shot inide an inch will get the job done on the hunt. Load your own. Clean cases. I like Hornady for hunting bullets but Speer, Barnes, Nosler, Sierra, Remington and Winchester do fine.

Main thing prepare to shoot well as your prepare to hunt well.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[pietro]

[ A co-worker recently offered me a .30-06 for sale - when I asked him "what kind" he said "bolt action" and when I asked "what brand" he said "Ted Williams." On inspection it appears that the rifle is a post-64 model 70 with minor differences in wood and trim.]


Nice catch !

Ya just gotta love "co-workers" - especially non-gunner co-workers !

I once told a "co-worker" that I was shopping for a "rifle", and was told I could buy their Remington .30-06 for $100.

It turned out to be a Remington-made & stamped US Springfield 1903 bolt action with all matching numbers.

Ya done good !

.

[Uncle R.]

Assume the rifle has sling swivels. If so, check that the front sling swivel screw is not set too deep and hitting the barrel. on my Win M70 FW, the front sling swivel screw was hitting the barrel. It shot ALL OVER THE PLACE! Would mostly string vertical 5-6" over 5 shots, and throw some for good measure.

Once I figured out that the swivel screw was hitting/pinging the bbl at each shot, AND it got much worse as it heated up, all I did was shim the sling swivel screw so it could not contact the bbl. Problem fixed!

That's a good thought and thanks! I did nothing with the rifle except clean the bore - very little copper to be found. I didn't pull it out of the stock. I did check the stock screws for tightness, push-pull-twist on the action checking for movement in the stock, and check the scope base screws when I mounted a better scope. Nothing came up loose or movable except the front sling swivel which was wobbly loose - and which I put an extra half-turn on to tighten it up.
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Uh-huh!
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I strongly suspect this rifle was carried by a casual or even careless hunter (hence the numerous dings and scratches in the wood) but fired very little. This accuracy problem is almost certainly a bedding - stock fit issue and I'm confident that given a little shop time it'll come around to shooting well. And the FIRST thing I'm gonna do is back out that front swivel screw....
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I'm starting to favor .30-06s as first rifles for my boys. They're all big boys growing to near 6 ft as they turn 12 - which is hunting age here in Wisconsin. A "youth" stock ain't required. <GRIN> Components and factory ammo are easily found and comparatively cheap, plus you can handload a .30-06 to do almost any job well.
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For years I've been pushing 130 gr. Hornady spire points at about 2700 in my 788 30-30 as a deer load for my wife. They're fast, flat and accurate enough to make it a solid 200 yard deer rifle but recoil is mild. She's killed several whitetails with that load and they're usually DRT with a good chest hit. None have gone far or required tracking. That same bullet at that same speed in a .30-06 is my "beginner" load. When those boys get a little older and maybe want to hunt game bigger than deer they can switch to something like 180 gr noslers and go for elk, or moose, or anything they can afford to chase. And while it ain't likely "the old man" will be around then, they may give him a thought or two if they're still using the "first rifle" that dad gave 'em years ago.

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Uncle R.