heresy and the 44-40

[shooter575]

About 1998 the N-SSA made a new team event for cartridge repeters.
ie Henry and Spencers.They had been shooting them in individuals[paper punching] for a few years. Anyway a few of the guys on my team started to play around with the Henry.I picked up one of the real early ones
with a 3xx serrial # in 44-40.Now this rifle shot great with condoms,
But our rools said we had to use real BP and no gas checks.Ah hell that ain no problem says I.
Well I started to use this new to me internet and went to all the BP
cartridge sites I could find.Man I got beat up bad.I got lots of reports that people trying had bad luck finding a load that would not
foul after a few rounds.I needed to be able to shoot rapid fire for
5 minutes in each event.And I only had enough time to run a brush or a few patches between events.
I was having a heck of a time with any black load I tried.I was getting BAD leading after 4 or 5 rounds.Come to find out that my henry had a wide middle 1/3 of the bore.The rounds were reengauging the last third and just leaving a lead smear for final 8" AHAaaaaaa
After I cooled off some months I decided to pull the barrel [another long story] and have it relined.In the meantime another shooter got hooked up with one of the top N-SSA henry shooters and got his loading info [Thanks Larry]So 8 month later I got my barrel back,replaced the extractor I blew off with a overstufed case that ruptured and started over.
Here is what I was told.
Use the RCBS .44s/.44m Silhouette [mould #429-240-sil]
size at .430 use SPG,or homemade equlvent musket lube
This is a gas check boolet,leave it off
Once fired brass,do not resize.Bell the mouth
Large pistol primers
22 gr fff goex
4-5 gr COW filler
Now this is heresy.No wads,grease cookie,filler case crimped on ogive,gas check left off,no drop tube,no blow tube,compressing load lightly with bullet.[Heck I use a tong tool to crimp]
This set up will let me shoot 50-75 rounds between cleaning.Barrel is clean in 4-5 patches.No leading,no blowback into action.I have never had to trim a case.And to top that I can shoot 3 moa on a good day with my old eyes and the open sights.I know 20+ shooters using this load.Now I know A better set up is out there,some day I should go look for it.
Now iffin I didnt know you fellas here I would not even repete this story

[45nut]

There is no reason in the world that isn't believeable,,and nothing that says it could not be adapted for say,,the 45Colt. Minor tweaking and a bit of SWAG's and something should work pretty quickly.
22grs by volume ,,correct? Take a BP measure,,get a 22gr reading and open up my lyman 55 and drop in the powder,,slowly open the gates until 22grs settles in and set the stops....COW ,,same technique or just use a dipper ..maybe a dipper [trimmed case soldered to a handle] for both?
Any straightwall cartridge should be somewhat friendly to this don't you think?

[StanDahl]

"No leading, no blowback into action..."

Sounds like great results! Did you have blowback before? I had thought that those hyphenated Winchester calibers (44-40, 32-20, 38-40) had such thin casemouths that blowback was way reduced. I've never had blowback in 32-20 with BP, just some with low pressure smokeless. Still working on the accuracy and long strings without cleaning though. Stan

[SharpsShooter]

Just a thought......Yeah I know its dangerous........

Since the COW is not combustible and might for this application be considered a mild abrasive..........Could the COW be scrubbing the fouling from the previous shot from the bore and allowing your lube to keep the fouling soft without the build-up occuring?

SS

[9.3X62AL]

I'm guessing about 900-950 FPS from this concoction in a carbine barrel......those 240's stabilize in the 1:38 twist at the slower speeds, eh? I see an experiment in the future.

45 Nut--not familiar with the Lyman 55, izzat a steel or iron tool? If so, DO NOT use it with The Holy Black--use brass or non-ferrous tools only with THB.

[SharpsShooter]

not familiar with the Lyman 55, izzat a steel or iron tool? If so, DO NOT use it with The Holy Black--use brass or non-ferrous tools only with THB.

The Lyman #55 Classic Black Powder Measure has internal metering bars that rotate in a non-sparking brass sleeve. A large non-static aluminum powder reservoir holds a pound of black powder. The unique three-slide adjustment bars are the key to consistent accuracy from small pistol charges to the largest rifle charges with accuracy to a fraction of a grain. Mounts on the bench or directly on a press or powder measure stand and includes a 7/8 x 14 adapter. I have the factory 24"drop tube on mine and it works very well with black or smokeless.

[omgb]

The Lyman 55 is a steel and iron tool AFAIK. Interesting, when it first came out, it listed BP grains and drams in the instruction book. I've read more than once from reputable sources, that Lyman only removed the BP section AFTER warnings from the legal department but there had never been a report of any trouble with the measure and BP. In addition, their testing showed no danger of an explosion using BP. Fact or Fiction? I don't know.

I use an Ideal #5 or a Belding and Mull. The #5 uses a bimetallic powder slide. The larger portion is steel and the smaller increment slide is brass. The hopper is cast iron as well. I think IIRC, that the powder slide mechanism rotates in a brass bushing/sleeve.

[montana_charlie]

their testing showed no danger of an explosion using BP. Fact or Fiction?

I'm convinced it's fiction. I read a long article on the subject last winter which said there has never been (as far as anybody can find out) an explosion related to running black powder through a ferrous metal measuring device.
They went on to run a series of tests in which they tried to ignite black powder with jolts of static electricity...and failed.

I am using my good old Redding Master Measure, and still love it's silkiness and consistency.
CM

[KCSO]

I still use a #5 Lyman powder measure made in abot 1890? and it is MADE for black powder and has cast iron and brass. My father in laws 55 that was boght new in 1946 sill has the instructions that say good for smokless and black. Both these measures have been in use for years and have loaded maybe 20,000 rounds of black powder loads. As to static, I have tried to set off powder with static electricity and have never been able to do it. I have jumped sparks through a pile of FFg and I can't get it to go. Granted I have never tried it with a can of powder, but I can't see a plastic hopper ever settng off B/P.

[9.3X62AL]

Awright--one each "urban legend" debunked. Thanks, folks.

[shooter575]

replys
45nut. Yup 45 colt also.Some guys use Henrys in that cal.Some say the WCF feeds better and is more accurate? Colt cases are easer to load they say also.
For this cartridge I use Lee perfect for the powder and a auto disk for the COW.4.3 or 4.5 cc I think.I just leave both set for this cartridge.But I have used my 55 in the past also.I just dump er in.Nice thing is you can see levels in this case nicely.Dippers would work OK also.


StanDahl. No the thin mouths seal nicely as you said.Now the .45 colt ones with the brass recievers show blowback big time.My brass frame just has a nice patena. Hey this gun with black has the fastest cleanup time of any of my BP guns.

Deputy Al. My guess is about 1000 fps no more.My barrel is a bit longer than the carbine. You want some of the boolets to play with?PM me and I will ship ya some.

montana_charlie,KCSO
More heresy guys. I have used just about every type measure with black and no problems.Like most myths in reloading,they die hard.
KCSO,were you the one that did that spark in the bp thing that is online? I posted a link to it on a couple BB in the past.

[w30wcf]

Shooter 575,
Sorry to hear of your problems with your Henry and glad that you were able to get things straightened out. Thank you for posting the load info that you found success with.

Historically speaking, in Winchester's 1875 catalog, there is an illustration of a target fired by E.H. Pardee, M.D. His rifle was an 1873 Winchester using the .44 W.C.F.cartridge. He fired 30 shots at 110 yards and the total group size is about 4". He said "The firing was done without wiping which proves the Winchester to be steady in her performance......"

The ammuniton he used was Winchester factory ammunition which consisted of a 200 gr. pure lead 2 grease groove bullet and 40 grains of black powder. I have fired recreations of this load using Lyman's 427098 bullet, a copy of the original bullet lubed with SPG and 40 grs of b.p. in my '73 Winchester made in 1881 and have experienced no leading of any kind. But, I did find that the type of black powder used can make a difference in accuracy.

My best results came with SWISS FFG powder. I had one 10 shot group at 50 yards which went 1.78" with SWISS. GOEX FFG would foul out in 7 rounds and produce inaccurate shooting. My rifle does have a pitted barrel which doesn't help either. SWISS B.P. is remnisant of the more refined black powders of the late 1800's which burned with a moist and minumum residum allowing for continued accurate shooting from repeating rifles.

If I had a modern Henry in .44-40, being a traditionalist, I would load it with the
.44 Henry Flat load .....28 grs of b.p. and a 200 gr. 2 lube groove bullet + whatever amount of filler would be required to take up the airspace.

Sincerely,
w30wcf

[McLintock]

When I first started shooting black powder pistol caliber stuff, it was in .44 Specials and a Uberti '73 rifle with 24" barrel. Also had two sets of pistols, both with barrels under 5". Tried the Lyman 427666, a 200 gr for the 44-40, with one single large grease groove and the 429667, a 240 gr'er with one large groove. Using a common mix of beeswax, crisco and vegetable oil for lube, I could get by with no grease cookie with the pistols, but had to use a 1/8th" grease cookie for the rifle; it was sandwitched between two thin paper wads, so powder contamination or sticking to the base of the bullet was not a problem. Kind of a pain to load though.
Then, they came out with new bullet designs, available in Lee 6 holers, in .44, .45 and .38, and grease cookies and such became history. The bullets were initially called the .44 Mav Dutchman, .45 PRS and .38 Snakebite, after the individuals that came up with the design. They have huge lube grooves, and you can shoot, seems like forever, without having to clean the barrel. I've shot 120 rounds through my Uberti over a two day match and it was shooting just as good on the last shot as the first. I've changed my lube formula to another common lube, with Beeswax, Murphy's Oil Soap, Neatsfoot Oil, and a little Olive Oil in it. In March I was shooting a Ruger .44 Magnum Flattop with BP loads using the 240 gr Lyman out of a 6" barrel and a Ruger .45 Colt with 71/2" barrel and the "Big Lube" (what they're collectively called now) bullet, essentially a side by side comparison. It was a 6 stage match, so shot about 30 rounds out of each gun, and the .44 fouled out badly with a hard crusty fouling in the last 1 1/2" of barrel, while the .45 with the "Big Lube" did great for the whole match. The .44 Big Lube is a 200 gr while the .45 is a 250 gr.
Just another option to consider.
McLintock