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Thread: 8x58r

  1. #1
    Boolit Master

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    8x58r

    I have been looking at rolling blocks. I found some in 8X58R.
    Given the year of manufacture, and the cartridge, is there a BP cartridge that can be converted even if it means swapping out the barrel?
    Could one of the .303 British variants be done. Such as a .38/.303?
    Just a ponderance.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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    There are lots of RBs out there in 38-55 and 45-70.
    Just about any rimmed cartridge 45 cal or smaller should work.
    The larger / longer ones sometimes require the hammer nose to be slimmed down a bit.
    A rimmed bottleneck or tapered cartridge should clear the hammer nose without modification.

    I would check out the .405 Win if I was converting one.
    It's not , strictly speaking, a BP cartridge but should do well with BP.

    I've shot mine a bit with 8x58Rmm brass made from 8x56 brass.
    The 8x56 is a bit short and a shade small in diameter at the head, but works fine with reasonable loads.

    Jack

  3. #3
    Boolit Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    The rim and case head on those are just a tad smaller than the 45-70. The barrels are pretty thin so reboring or relining would be quite a trick. So about the best thing to do is to rebarrel and go with something like 40-65, 4082,3856, 45-70 etc. Other wise you'll need to change the extractor and those rotarys extractors were a bit tough to get ahold of.
    You could just load the thing with bp as is and have right at it.
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  4. #4
    Boolit Master

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    Yeah, I could do that, and just might, however,
    Where do I get brass for that cartridge? I did some cursery look see, and they liked their cartridges a lot.
    Can I fire form one?

  5. #5
    Boolit Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Couple of things you can do, form them from 45-90 brass, you'll need to thin the rims , just a tad and make them just a scosh smaller in diameter. Use the 8x56r brass as mentioned above . You can also blow out 7.62x54 brass, but it'll still be short.
    Given all the hoops one needs jump thru to get the thing up and running, I believe its probably best to just have it rebarreled to something a person can make more ready use out of.
    GUSA #6
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  6. #6
    Boolit Master

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    Sounds like If I do it, a 45/70 might be in order.
    Question answered.
    I like 45/70.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Well there you go.
    GUSA #6
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  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    Fella by the title of "Dutchman" on this site has a great website detailing the case forming required, and donor cartridges for same.

    Killer for me, is trying to find a set of dies that someone will let go of.

    I have a 40-65 reamer and a 40 cal barrel in mind for mine, eventually. Probably.

    Cheers
    Trev

  9. #9
    Boolit Master




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    Buffalo Arms has the brass and I don't remember it being that much, but it has been awhile since I bought some. Mine shot extremely well with smokeless and the 8mm Lee custom 235gr boolit from Midsouth. The case holds over 70grs of BP and fouling was a real problem. If you want to use it with BP a larger bore would probably work better.
    Like Trev I have an extra 40cal barrel and custom 40-65 reamer that I'm thinking about using to build a deer rifle with. It is a fun gun as is though. Just depends on what rings your bell though.

    Bob
    GUNFIRE! The sound of Freedom!

  10. #10
    Boolit Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    It depends on the headspace measurement for brass from BACO
    If its .072 they're 83$ for 50. .060 then its 93$
    The one I had makes a pretty dandy lil 40-65.
    Replacing the heavy military trigger spring with one of the lighter sporter springs does wonders for accuracy.
    GUSA #6
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  11. #11
    Boolit Master

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    Danish military issue case dated 1931 and
    loaded in Sweden with a soft point bullet.

    case OAL = 2.272"
    head diameter = .501"
    rim diameter = .574"
    rim thickness = .058"
    bullet diameter
    at case mouth = .323"

    Norma commercial 8x58RD
    headstamp = Norma 8mm m/89

    case OAL = 2.266"
    head diameter = .501"
    rim diameter = .576"
    rim thickness = .059"
    bullet diameter
    at case mouth = .323"
    (same bullet as above, 196gr RN SP)

    8x56R for the 1895 Hungarian rifles.
    head diameter = .491
    rim diameter = .554
    rim thickness = .055
    case oal = 2.194

    While I use to condemn use of 8x56R in the Swedish rolling block I now <eat crow> say prudent ~cast bullet loads only~.

    I'd like to see the true source of this internet fairy tale about two different headspace standards for 8x58R Danish. (I've already seen it)... Its some obscure U.S. military armorer's BS. The internet urban legend flows mostly from Buffalo Arms' offering of two different rim thickness for 8x58RD. Ask them what they mean and they'll shrug their shoulders. They don't know and they can't say. That defines ignorance. It defines stupidity if you buy 8x58RD from Buffalo Arms not knowing, either.

    From the Buffalo Arms website:

    "This is currently loaded obsolete ammunition for 8x58R Danish Krag rifles with .060" headspace. CHECK YOUR HEAD SPACE DO NOT GUESS!! THESE RIFLES WILL VARY FOR HEADSPACE! Usually .060" or .070" so we offer the ammo and brass both ways. Loaded with our reformed cases (item# 8x58RDanish) and a 190 grain .324" lead gas check bullet (item# 324190). These are loaded to approximately 1,500 fps."

    Notice nowhere does this mention m/1889 Swedish rolling block rifles. Do not assume this ammo is safe for 1889 Swedish rolling blocks OR that Buffalo Arms knows anything other than how to sell this ammo or sell Swedish rolling block rifles. When I talked to "Skip" at Buffalo Arms in 2000 they didn't know how to SPELL Swedish rolling block rifle.

    Buffalo Arms description of the Swedish m/1889 sporter:

    "In the 1880's these were arsenal rebuilt and made into forrester rifles for use in game management."


    Is wrong. Starting in 1891 the 1867 blackpowder rifles were arsenal converted to 8x58RD. The "sporter" conversion didn't happen until much later when in civilian commercial retailer named http://dutchman.rebooty.com/Vapendepoten_1935.pdf in Sweden. They were sold to the public. They were not made into "forester rifles" for "game management". That's just BS.

    So, you have to question just about everything/anything that comes from Buffalo Arms when they can't even get straight where and what-fer these rifles originated. Let alone anything about the ammunition.

    Furthermore from Buffalo Arms ad copy:

    "In the 1880's and 1890's these were arsenal rebuilt, recase colored, rebarreled with a nickel steel barrel and chambered to 8x58R."

    A nickel steel barrel? Really? Wonder where that tidbit came from.

    RCBS has dies for 8x58RD. That's what I use.

    14 shots, 10 shots into one hole. When I can do that with a 10 pound triggerpull you can't say these rifles in this caliber aren't capable. My Buffalo Arms 8x58RD brass cases have been splitting.
    I'll be doing a batch of <eat crow> 8x56R soon as I can get some ordered from Graf.

    http://dutchman.rebooty.com/rb.html


  12. #12
    Boolit Master Andy_P's Avatar
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    I'm one of the proponents of using 8x56 Hungarian as the basis for 8x58RD - just size and use (and neck size thereafter), even though it's a bit short in OAL (2.200" vs. 2.266"), and a bit undersized at the casehead (0.491" vs. 0.501"). The 8x58RD has a very long neck, so the "shortness" of the 8x56 is a non-problem, and neither is the 0.009" undersized casehead at the pressures used in the RB (<28K psi). I've used 10 thou undersized caseheads in Mauser actions at much higher pressure with no failures after five firings (and on cross-section none were imminent), so I am confident that none will occur in the RB, which has as its gas-handling feature, blowback into your face.

    I've done the 45/90 conversion as well (to produce "correct" brass), just to see what was involved, and while not an especially complex conversion so far as conversions go, it was not pretty compared to the simplicity of using 8x56. The expensive 45/90 brass needs to have its rim reduced, then the "neck" annealed, then it is sized in the 8x58RD die, then annealed again IMO. Then reduce its OAL to 2.266" and neck ream if your chamber is tight. Mine is cavernous so it wasn't needed (and all the more reason to neck size).

    I posed all that here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=22807

    I have found that my < 28k psi cast loads coincided with 8x57 starting cast loads, but all I use now is SR4759.
    Last edited by Andy_P; 10-03-2009 at 08:56 AM.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master




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    I got excellent groups with the above named Lee boolit and 4759. Very pleasant to shoot and doing around 1500fps.

    Bob
    GUNFIRE! The sound of Freedom!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check