Dacron Wadding - How much?

[MGySgt]

In some of the larger cases and with most powders I have found, at least so far, the groups are better using dacron.

I use enough to fill the air space between the powder and bullet and really like the bullet to compress the dacron.

Wondering how some others are using dacron.

Currently in my 45/90 and IMR 4198 and 3031 I am using 2 grains, cut in about 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/2 cubes.

Drew

[BruceB]

I use dacron ("polyester fiberfill") a great deal, and find that it helps quite a bit in my loads.

I really dislike referring to it as "wadding" as this gives a completely erroneous impression of how I use the stuff, and seems to imply that it is a densely-compacted mass "wadded" into the airspace above the powder.

All I want the dacron to do is fill the airspace in the case with the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM of material....just enough to do the job of holding the powder charge back against the fllashhole AND filling all the space in the case.

I use the bulk-type fiber, not the stuff that's formed into sheets for quilts etc. When setting -up to load, I visualize the amount of free space above the charge, and pull off a piece of dacron large enough to fill this space. Note that the density of the dacron can change from place-to-place in the bulk bag. I like to have tufts big enough to fill the space, but so lightly-compacted that I can see through them with ease. If necessary, I pull the dacron thinner before making the tufts.

Having identified the size I want, I place an "exemplar" tuft to one size for reference as I make more tufts. I've never bothered to weigh such a trifling amount of material. Since I load each cartridge COMPLETELY once the case is in the turret press, I make a row of five tufts which correspond to the rows of five in most 50-round boxes. This makes it very easy to keep track, and ensures that I don't forget to install a tuft in each cartridge.

I push each tuft into its case with a suitable-size tool, usually a flat-bit screwdriver which fits loosely into the caseneck. I push the screwdriver down on the dacron until the tool JUST contacts the powder, which can be felt. If the tuft is the proper size, this leaves some dacron still outside the mouth. This part of the tuft is then tucked barely into the casemouth, and the bullet is then seated. This very-slightly compresses the dacron and ensures that NO airspace is left in the case, and the powder charge is immobilized.

This method has now worked for me in tens of thousands of cast-boolit rifle rounds in both straight and bottlenecked cases. Typically (but not always), accuracy is better, while velocities are more consistent in deviation and extreme spread. Speeds are also usually slightly elevated above non-dacron identical charges, and no problems have come to light.

I find dacron to be a very valuable tool in my handloading.

[44man]

Bruce, I do it the same way but use the eraser end of a pencil to put it in. No need to measure anything, just pull a small wad off and stuff it in lightly. I find what they call "garnetted" fiberfill works much better as it has all the same size fibers, no thicker or longer ones, very smooth to work with. I use SR 4759 in my 45-70 revolver with the filler and accuracy is super all the way to 500 yd's. Darn thing outshoots my BPCR. I also use it in the .45 and .44 with super light powder loads. I don't really know if it is needed here, but they shoot too good to change.

[Jumptrap]

I have found very little posted lately to bring me up to the keyboard, but I got to ask a few questions, comment, etc.

This dacron (pronounced Day'cron according to Websters) business is driving me up the wall. I never bothered with fillers much, but when I have, I use the loose fluffy stuff that comes in a bag. I cannot quite understand the anal extremes as to how much/how little to use.

The damned stuff weighs next to nothing, even a 'gob' of it. Although i possess no crystal ball or xray vision to view the results during ignition, I am quite convinced that once that small charge of fast burning propellent ignites and 15,000+ psi is developed, that synthetic hairball gets reduced too nearly nothing real quick-like.

Now, this paranoia over a ringed chamber is blown out of proportion. I am not discounting that it doesn't happen......so does SEE, but how often? If you were to cram all the dacron you could stuff in the case and pack it in there rock hard, I could envision the possibility of ringing a chamber. However, me thinks it ridiculous to meter out eyeballed exact miniscule amounts of this fiber in fear that any more or less is courting disaster.

In my own use, in the 45-70 for example, I yank off a pinch about the diameter of a quarter and shove it down on top of the powder. I don't pack it down, but I don't play tickle your toes either. No ringed chambers yet, no shot to shot variations due to the filler weighing one half grain or one whole grain or two grains. Ignition does appear to improve though and that....in itself is all I am hoping for.

[StarMetal]

Jump

...and lot of folks pronounce it DAK RON.

I still like Kapok alot better.

Joe

[mroliver77]

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/messages/10416.shtml
This is a good read on Dacron. I still use it. I am going to try cotten when I use the three pillow sized bags up in my cabinet. Jay

[StarMetal]

Mroliver77

Stick with Dacron and Kapok.

Joe

[mroliver77]

StarMetal, the dacron goes a looonnng way., I have three big bags and an American Bulldog pup that loves to rip dacron stuffing out of toys. My stash is growing instead of shrinking.I have the family trained to keep dacron , foam meat trays , cans, boxes and other reloading goodies. I doubt I will ever run low enough to try the cotton. May I ask why you reject the use of cotton.
The dog opened up a funky pillow that was filled with some Grex looking stuff a while back. I tried it as a filler and it worked well but was a pain to meter and get into the cartridge. Jay

[jh45gun]

Call me a alarmist but since the reloading manuals now say not to I guess I will not and never have. I use 2400 for my cast reloading and it is not position sensative and seems to give good groups for me so I will stick with that. To each there own I guess but I like my guns too well to take a chance on ringing the chamber or barrel. Jim

[Shepherd2]

I pretty much use BruceB's method for adding filler to my reloads but I use a material no body has mentioned. Wool. The first time I went to add a filler I couldn't find that bag of Dacron I knew was in the house and SWMBO wasn't home to tell where it was.

We sell raw and processed wool to spinners and weavers so I grabbed a bit of washed and combed wool roving to give it a try. It has the fibers all combed in the same direction and is easy to pull off the size tuft you want. I loaded up a handful of cartridges and headed out back to my range.

The load gave me better accuracy than the same charge without the filler which was what I was hoping for. I figured I might find tufts of wool downrange since wool has a natural resistance to burning but I never found a bit of it then or since. I do get and occasional whiff of burning wool. I've since found the Dacron and used it but I can't tell any difference. The Dacron has been used up on some project so when I need a filler now I just use wool.

[shooter2]

In my Marlin 1895, 45-70, I use 4198 (either) and a healthy piece of Dacron. I do use the sheets and cut it to size with a scissors. Two grains sounds about right. I want a reasonably firm wad filling the space. It cut the group size in half. I also use the eraser end of a pencil.

This is from Ross Seyfried. To duplicate a black powder load use 4198 (IMR or Hodgdon) at 40% (forty percent) of the BP weight and a wad of Dacron of two to three grains. For a 45-70 that would be 28 grains (70X.4).

I never use it in pistol cartridges. Not found the need and have always been a little cautious as they get knocked around a bit more.

Like Jumptrap I think the problems have been overstated. However, I find that the Dacron is blown out pretty much intact and gray. It certainly is not burned in the process. Works for me...

[wills]

“Shepherd2

I pretty much use BruceB's method for adding filler to my reloads but I use a material no body has mentioned. Wool.”

Sheep again! Watch out; Carpetman will be coming to live with you.

[JDL]

I don't use dacron polyester with all my loads, in fact, I try to avoid it's extra step. A grain of it is slightly bigger than a nickel, which is about what I pinch off when I think it's needed, and load it as does BruceB.
A few days ago, I found some .30/30's that I had loaded back in the '70's for a Savage 99 once owned. Boolit was Lyman's 311466 with 18 grs. of H-4227 pushing it out of a W-W case. I fired them out of my 24 inch barrel 336A, finding them to group quite well, and saw fibers floating from the muzzle blast . Yep, back then I used dacron a lot!-JDL

[Willbird]

I will chime in to say I intend to not use anything but fillers that fill the whole case, such as grex, corn meal can compress into a hard pellet over time and raise pressures.

If one is going to use other types of fillers it should be with the knowledge that they have ruined many fine rifles by ringing chambers, and be prepared to suffer the consequances.

Every safety step or limiting factor in reloading and shooting has advocates and detractors.

Bill

[KCSO]

I have never been a fan of fillers and have not used Dapoc in years. That said I ustacould notice that some powders like Unique wre position sensative with a standard large rifle primer. When I switched to a Large Pistol primer in these same loads I noticed that the powder was less effected by position and I got slightly better groups. Since most of my use for these loads is 100 yard and under target practice and small game loads I just gave up using fillers. I have NEVER seen a ringed chamber that could be attributed to the load used, other than a 45-90 that had smokless powder and a grease wad hard down on the powder. I won't say that it has never happened, I have just not seen it in 40 years of reloading. I think Jump has it right about amount of filler as when I did use a filler I never weighed and still got good groups.

[StarMetal]

Call me a alarmist but since the reloading manuals now say not to I guess I will not and never have. I use 2400 for my cast reloading and it is not position sensative and seems to give good groups for me so I will stick with that. To each there own I guess but I like my guns too well to take a chance on ringing the chamber or barrel. Jim

Man was told by the authorities back centuries ago that the world was flat and not to go sailing off far or your ship and it's crew would fall off the face of the earth. Hadn't some adventurists doubted this thinking we'd all still be living on one continent. The reloading books say what they say because of liability lawsuits. Now don't get me wrong, their loads have been tested very carefully and those recipes for them should be followed. They don't want you altering any of the componants or loads, but then again those are jacketed loads and we don't need a filler in those. Cast loads with very small charges of powder in large volume cases are a whole different animal.

Okay, question of the class here. How many of you fellows out there got ringed chambers from firing cast loads with a filler? If any we want the exact circumstances. Don't forget, a ringed chamber is something that's not planned, so to recount EXACTLY what happen is pretty tough. I bet there are few of us that got them from shooting fillers. No saying "Well I heard about or read about this fellow that ringed his chamber from using fillers".

Joe

[swheeler]

Joe; yes I got a RINGED tailed coon using poly filler and 7383, does that count? Scooter

[Bullshop]

Joe
Many moons ago when the learning curve started as a dot on a clean sheat of paper I ringed my chamber in my gun with my loads with filler. The gun was a trapdoor springfield 45/70 carbine,yes an origonal carbine. The load was with a 200gn SWC for 45 acp cast in pure lead and patched up to diameter with teflon tape. Powder was 6gn Unique cant remember the primer. The filler was not a filler but a wad cut from card board box and seated down on the powder leaving a goodly space between wad and bullet. This was my mountain grouce load and I killed many with it. I was so happy with it as I had my big game rifle and small game rifle in one. And oh boy did it shoot good. At 30 yards no trouble picking the head off a grouce. After what I will guess about 200 rounds extraction became a bit rough, and a close look at fired cases told the story. A bulged ring at the location of the bullet base in a loaded round. Now this discovery made me literly feel sick and stupid at the same time and I dont much care for that so thought I had better get an education. Fast forward 30 years and the dot on the paper has become a closing circle. I never quit using fillers I just learned how to do it right. What I use now is plain old packing popcorn. I have learned to never push the filler what ever it is down on the powder but to only start it in the case and let the bullet push it down, this way ther is no gap between the filler and the bullet alowing the filler to gain velocity befor impacting the bullet. The packing popcorn is light weight and compresible and acts much the way a shot gun wad does. If you look at a shot gun cartridge you see there is a good gap between the powder and the shot and the wad is acting as a filler. Same thing we are trying to do in our rifle cartridges. The shot gun wad compresses and eliminates the shock to the bullet/shot column. Admitedly this is my personal line of thinking but it works good for me and has prevented any further damage. So for everyone with an opinion keep it, not trying to convince anyone of anything here just answering a question from a friend. To quote someone somewhere sometime, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.
BIC/BS

[StarMetal]

Dan

I'm sure sorry that happen, but it doesn't count as ringing for a filler, as it was a wad. As you learned, never leave an airspace between something overtop the powder and the base of the bullet.

So that still leaves no fillers (kapok and dacron) ringed chambers yet. Don't forget fellows the stuff has to be used properly. When done so I don't think anyone is going to ring a chamber.

Joe

[StarMetal]

swheeler

I'll let you count that one pardner.

Joe