There is some of the "dross" I skimmed from the top next to some drippings that came from the bottom pour spot on my lee pot.
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There is some of the "dross" I skimmed from the top next to some drippings that came from the bottom pour spot on my lee pot.
Okay things are going a bit better. I went out today and had another go at it. I melted it at 5 (my normal temp for casting in 2 cavity molds, I cast at 6-6.5 for my 6 cavity molds because they seem to prefer it a bit hotter). I fluxed it at the lower temp and skimmed off the crud. The oxide layer was much much slower at forming, it would stay silver for a while then slowly turn gold and slowly purple to blue. The higher the temp the faster it went through the color changes. So I unclogged my pouring spout and tried again at casting.
I ended up casting with the temp set at 4, which is way lower than my normal temp of around 5.5-6. So is it likely I had tin or something mixed in that was lowering the melting temp of the lead? Or is it just because now I have a more pure lead it melts at a lower temp? So I guess to avoid this in the future I need to cast my ingots at a lower temp?
Hey Man, no offense, but look into XP Powertoys pic resizer.
I"m on a 15Mbps stream and your pics still killed my bandwidth
The last ones I posted are small! I want to make sure everyone can see what im dealing with very well as to achieve the best diagnosis. But I will limit them all to the size of the last few in the future.
Trinot, in the future when your spout gets clogged, many times it can be "opened" again with a quick heating with a propane torch. This will save you several minutes, instead of heating up the entire pot way hot to unclog it this is a little helpful trick I have learned. Works for me!
lathesmith
Cool I might give that a try next time. I was going to use a paper clip, but I didn't have a single one at my place. I ended up using a thumb tack to unclog it. Just let it get up to casting temp and stuck it in the spout.Originally Posted by lathesmith
Trinot, If you get a thermometer, you'll find those numbers on your Lee pot mean very little. I had half a pot of liquidus WW and the pot set on 3.5 and the thermometer said 850deg!!! I added a PID controller and the temp problems went away. If the temp starts to get away from you just stick the end of an ingot in the pot till the temp drops.
Now, if you post some pixs of the front and the back of your 'pewter', I'll see if I can identify it for you. I have "antique authorities" tell me Wilton ware is pewter all the time.
Ok, we're getting somewhere. I have some solid info for you, and it will help.
What you're doing is not fluxing thoroughly at all. From the beginning I suspected this was part of the problem. What you need to do is stir the entire pot of lead while the wax flux is in the pot. Be sure to use enough flux so you can stir the pot deeply. Simply tossing in some wax and then lighting it only fluxes the TOP, and leaves about 99.9% of the lead unfluxed. That will clog your spout pronto. Get a long-handled spoon so you can really stir-up the melt and get all the crud up to the top where the wax can flux it out of the melt.
Do that, and you'll be a pro soon. I can promise you that it will help-- a lot.
The convection currents in the molten lead will mix the lead in your pot. From your photos, it is absolutely clear that zinc contamination is not your problem. Cross that one off the list too. We're making progress here!I was able to cast a few boolits before the pour spot got clogged up. They look fine other than the deformities I got from it pouring so slow and the boolit not filling the cavity properly.
Here is a picture of the boolits I was able to cast. It is possible that these boolits where okay because I had a small layer of residual good lead from my old batch of lead in the bottom of my pot, I am not sure of that though whatsoever.
No, that would not affect it. Your photos offer virtual proof that your problems are almost entirely caused by inadequate fluxing. Concentrate on that as a fix.Would it be safe to say that if I would have melted the WW's slower thus not achieving such a high temperature my problems would have been avoided? I am pretty sure it got to hot because it was melted and I thought it wasn't because there where so many clips/junk on top that I couldn't see the underneath had melted. Once you have lead to hot is that just it, its done?...
Lead that is too hot, or not fluxed right, can be fixed. I have to say again:
Never melt down ww's in your bottom-pour pot! You should not have clips and junk in there! These are basic problems with easy fixes. Melting-down tire weights in that pot is an E-ticket ride to a clogged spout guaranteed! Now you see why I said to address the basics first, and not jump to conclusions about lead "contamination." It's not zinc, it's the crud from melting-down tire weights.
Your spout is clogged for sure. No two-ways about it.
Excellent, you're learning. Isn't what you described above exactly what I've been saying? See-- I'm not steering you wrong here. We are definitely making progress.
That melt looks better. But you're not fluxing adequately, and there's still a lot of crud in your melt. Your spout may clog up again. Work on fluxing more thoroughly.
Please read this short article on fluxing:
http://www.lasc.us/FryxellFluxing.htm
Nope, nope. Don't start blaming the lead alloy again. First it was zinc, now tin. The problem is with not fluxing correctly, and with melting ww's in your pot, and the spout was clogged. That was the whole problem.I ended up casting with the temp set at 4, which is way lower than my normal temp of around 5.5-6. So is it likely I had tin or something mixed in that was lowering the melting temp of the lead? Or is it just because now I have a more pure lead it melts at a lower temp? So I guess to avoid this in the future I need to cast my ingots at a lower temp?
Pure lead melts at a HIGHER temp than ww alloy. Guessing at this stuff will steer you wrong.
The way to avoid this in the future is simply by not melting scrap in your pot-- use another cast-iron pot on a burner to melt scrap and pour ingots. Only clean, fluxed lead ingots go into the bottom-pour pot.
Btw, the bullets look good. Zinc is NOT your problem. See? What have I been saying? You wanted to scrap your whole pot of lead because someone told you that "crap" floating on your pot had to be some sort of "contaminant." Now you know better. Now you're learning how to manange and maintain your lead better.
You'll save yourself a lot of time and frustration if you read the articles I've suggested, and follow the advice I've given. Otherwise there will be no end to the problems you'll have, and you'll either have to guess at a solution, or you won't know which advice has any value at all to it.
Hope this helps, keep up the good work.
Listen to Sagacious grasshopper and soon you'll be able to snatch the pebble from his hand.
Matt
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With regards to gun control in this country, everyone should be asking themselves one question:
What is it that this government feels they need to do, but can't do, unless the citizens of this nation are first disarmed?
(I seriously doubt you can come up with any plausible answers that you will like...)
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Excellent information here. Thank you, Sagatious. A note on fluxing - I use a Lyman ladle and a open pot. I will take a chunk of wax, drop it in the ladle, turn it over and immerse it in the melt, slowly moving it around. The wax melts and flows through the melt. I still get junk - iron oxide - trapped in the bottom of the pot. It does remove the oxides, though.
Wayne the Shrink
There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!
I have said this several times now but I will say it again. I did NOT melt the WW's in my pot. I made ingots in a cast iron smelting pot first. I then melted the ingots in my pot. It turns out the problem was that I melted the ingots at too high of a temp, causing those crazy colors. Then I melted the ingots in my pot at too high of a temp furthering the problem. The remedy was turning the temp down on my pot and fluxing several times and skimming off the "dross". I know you said to flux back in the dross but when I tried this it never really went back in, just kept needing to skim it back off. Should I try to flux the dross back in next time I make ingots?
So for other people here are the mistakes I made.
1) I filled my ingot pot way to full with WW's because I knew they would melt down. This was a bad idea because there was so many clips and non melted WW's that I couldn't see that the lead had melted under the layer of clips.
2) I got the lead way to hot in my ingot pot, causing oxidation and possibly a small amount of zinc to get in my alloy. The reason it got to hot is because of #1 and that I had the flame up pretty high trying to get things going.
3) I melted the ingots at too high of a temperature in my castomg pot. I guess since the WW lead is a bit different than what I have used in the past it needed to be melted a lower temperature and casted with at a lower temperature.
So, if you have the problem I was having, even though things look bad you can salvage your lead. I went from the previous pictures to this:
Which ultimately made:
So other people don't loose hope! Since this is a sticky thread if you all would like I can sum up all of my posts into 1 post or the thread starter can use my pictures to show what it looks like and then show that here is hope.
Hold on, bro!
Yes, do not overload the pot. That makes heat management difficult or impossible while melting scrap lead or ww's. It usually means that the melt will require much more thorough fluxing, and that has in fact contributed to your problems. Fluxing correctly will almost entirely solve that problem if you do overheat the melt while melting scrap. It will also "fix" your ingots that may have been poured at too high a temp when melting the ww's. I hope that explanation makes sense.1) I filled my ingot pot way to full with WW's because I knew they would melt down. This was a bad idea because there was so many clips and non melted WW's that I couldn't see that the lead had melted under the layer of clips.
Heat management is among the top priorities while melting scrap.2) I got the lead way to hot in my ingot pot, causing oxidation and possibly a small amount of zinc to get in my alloy. The reason it got to hot is because of #1 and that I had the flame up pretty high trying to get things going.
You seem steadfastly determined to believe that zinc was the problem. The photos of your bullets indicate clearly that this is not the problem. Overheating the melt and inadequate fluxing can, yes, cause problems similar to zinc contamination. You appear to have one of those problems, but not both. Your pouring results, and your fluxing results would likely be quite different if both problems were present. This conclusion is based on the photos of your pot and your casting results. I can't argue with the photos.
Yes, this is exactly as I've been saying-- there is hope. Never assume your lead is "ruined" until we've reviewed and exhausted all the proper procedures and basic tests. Each lead alloy must be treated differently. More heat is not always the solution, and you're often better-off pouring at the lowest heat level that gives good results. Fluxing is your friend.3) I melted the ingots at too high of a temperature in my castomg pot. I guess since the WW lead is a bit different than what I have used in the past it needed to be melted a lower temperature and casted with at a lower temperature.
...
So other people don't loose hope! ...
The problems you outlined in this thread are predictable to those who melt-down a lot of ww's, and that's why it's easy to suggest a fix that in fact works.
Recall that this thread started as a question about melt oxide and dross coloration. We're now way past that issue, and I think it's been thoroughly resolved. The thread moved on to dross management, and heat management while melting and pouring lead. I think we've found the solution in that case as well-- keeping a close eye on temp control and thorough fluxing and skimming of dross.
So OK, let's address the remaining questions from the top of your reply above. You should always flux before skimming the melt. Then, once the melt is completely fluxed, skim-off anything that is not shiny, molten lead. After the dross is fluxed, it won't go back into the melt. Just skim it all off and you're set to pour.
As a material example, in the top photo in your post above, the lead should be skimmed until it's a mirror-like surface. It won't stay that way, but you still have a lot of particulate matter in there that needs to be removed.
As the molten lead sits, it will form more oxides and dross. You can either flux it again and skim when it becomes necessary (as when ingot pouring), or you can sprinkle a thin layer of sawdust on the top of the melt to help slow the dross formation (as when using your bottom-pour pot). That technique will make a positive difference in your case, and I hope I've answered your questions.
Hope this helps, good luck!
Wayne,
Thanks, that is an excellent point. One can still have particulate matter, such as the rust bits you mentioned, trapped against the sides and bottom of the pot. Cast iron pots are notorious for this, since they continually shed rust, but if you're pouring with a ladle from the top, one can still avoid most of that particulate matter while casting.
Permit me to offer a suggestion. I have found that, for me, the best fluxing appliance is a long-handled large stainless spoon that has been attached to a hickory dowel with a stainless hose clamp. The flat, sharp sides of the spoon do a very good job of thoroughly stirring the melt while fluxing, and of scraping the sides of the pot. A rounded dipper doesn't scrape the sides of the pot as well. Also, the tip of the spoon fits right into the radius at the bottom of the pot and helps bring bits of rust and other trapped debris to the surface so the wax can remove it from the lead.
Works for me, good luck!
Yeh I am not done with that pot at all. Still needs fluxing and skimming. I read that article, good article. It said that saw dust acts like activated carbon, well I have some actual activated carbon pellets (for fish tank/air filters) that are just sitting around not being used. Would it be advisable to crush some of these up and give it a shot for fluxing? I know zinc isn't an issue since my mold is filling out, but I wouldn't doubt with the temps I achieved I got a tiny bit in there. Thank you SO much for your help. I wasn't trying to be a dick by saying I used ingots, but I did say it before.
"Originally Posted by Trinot
Great thread. I did the same thing with WW's today. I did not reduce the temp as I was casting the ingots."
"This is the first time I have tried to make ingots using only WW's."
"This was melted and made into ingots before I put it in the lee pot. "
Please don't take offense to me posting those, just don't want to look like a TOTAL retard (although I am sure I already have)
I am about to go for another run of casting. I can't wait to make ingots again, I am just itching to apply everything you guys have taught me in here. I am going to melt my WW's slowly, not fill the pot entirely full, and not crank the flame way up.
Should I add my dross and skimmings to then next batch of ingots I make? I thought about re-melting the ingots + dross + etc and then adding WW's to that to make skimming and temp management easier.
Also, do you guys have any recommendation of a solvent to clean the WW's. I know it isn't necessary but mine are extra gross. They also got wet and I would like to wash them with a solvent that will dry fast (something low molecular weight like an alcohol or something).
THANKS!
Trinot,
First, let me say that I did not mean to imply any incomptence. I'm glad we got the communication cleared up. I wasn't sure what you meant when you initially said, "I am sad I ever put this gunk into my nice clean lee pot." Wasn't sure if you meant ww's or the ingots, or which. Now I have a better picture of your process.
Activated carbon won't take the place of wax as flux. As the article mentions, sawdust is compared to activated carbon primarily by analogy, but not as a direct replacement. Activated carbon will only bind to some of the oxide compounds in the melt, as the vital compounds for fluxing-- the lignins and hydrocarbons contained in raw sawdust or wax-- have been baked-out of activated carbon. Also, activated carbon will not "wet" the particualte matter in the melt, or reduce the tin and lead oxides back to metal, and that's critical. So, I would save your activated carbon for other uses and keep using your hydrocarbon wax as flux. Wax does a great job of wetting and removing particulate debris from the melt.
Sounds great! I'm sure you'll have a better time with it, and enjoy your results. Keep us posted.I am about to go for another run of casting. I can't wait to make ingots again, I am just itching to apply everything you guys have taught me in here. I am going to melt my WW's slowly, not fill the pot entirely full, and not crank the flame way up.
Yes, you definitely should add the skimmings. The dusty dross skimmed off after fluxing should be disposed of, and I'm sure you know that, but I'm just mentioning it for the record. You will likely need to add more fluxing compound than usual, and you may have to flux twice in a row because of all the oxides and particulate matter. But that will allow you to recover some lead and antimony from your previous melts. Those skimmings certainly contain salvageable lead.Should I add my dross and skimmings to then next batch of ingots I make? I thought about re-melting the ingots + dross + etc and then adding WW's to that to make skimming and temp management easier.
Several people have written on that subject. A search may turn up some results. A pressure-washer with some soapy water will strip-off the road grime as well, or better, than just about any other method.Also, do you guys have any recommendation of a solvent to clean the WW's. I know it isn't necessary but mine are extra gross. They also got wet and I would like to wash them with a solvent that will dry fast (something low molecular weight like an alcohol or something).
THANKS!
There is really only one safe way to melt-down scrap lead that has become wet, as there may still remain some water trapped inside one of the ww's. You need to load the pot with ww's and only then turn on the heat. Do not add more ww's to the molten lead and allow them to become pushed under the surface. To do so risks a steam/molten metal explosion. You may get away with it several times unscathed, but when it does happen, you'll remember it for a very long time. Be safe, and always wear eye-protection. Just a word to the wise.
Hope this helps, good luck!
Don't ever take me seriously, I always assume people know that for some reason. I know you weren't trying to say I was incompetent and I was just joking around.
I have been tossing the stuff I skimmed that looked real crappy. I saved all the lumpy lead looking dross. I will try to work it back in next time. If the dross does have some of the 'dusty' dross in it will it hurt anything? Or will it be okay and I will just have to skim it off again when fluxing?
I will do a search for a good cleaning method. I don't think I will access to a pressure washer. I was thinking of just washing them off with soapy water and then washing down with mineral spirits or gas/kerosene/alcohol in the hopes that one of them would hopefully drive off some water. After doing this I planned on spreading the WW's out on a table and letting them dry for a week or two.
Again thanks a ton for your clear concise extremely well put together and very well dictated (correct word, I dunno?) help.you are right up there with the most helpful and kind member of any forum I have ever participated in.
Nope, won't hurt anything. Chuck it all in next time and flux generously after everything melts.
If you wish to be extra careful, you can instead melt the dross and skimmings in quarantine with only about a pound of ww's. Flux, skim, and then test it for "pourability." If it pours well, then you know there's no zinc in it and you can add it into your lead stash. It's a good idea to quarantine any suspect lead until you're sure it's OK to mix with your known good lead.
I can offer some suggestions on that. You can soak in solvent in a 5gal bucket for a day and then hose-off the ww's after placing them on a piece of grating or screen. That will get off most of the grime. The solvent will get pretty nasty-looking, but it will still keep on working even after it turns black. I try to use solvents sparingly, so be aware that you can get a lot of mileage out of your solvent-- it lasts a long time.I will do a search for a good cleaning method. I don't think I will access to a pressure washer. I was thinking of just washing them off with soapy water and then washing down with mineral spirits or gas/kerosene/alcohol in the hopes that one of them would hopefully drive off some water. After doing this I planned on spreading the WW's out on a table and letting them dry for a week or two.
Alcohol is the only solvent listed above that will mix with water, but my advice would be to simply allow the ww's to air-dry for a while, as rinsing in alcohol/solvent is not likely to remove trapped water. Then just melt them with the same basic precautions for working with lead that may have gotten wet. And this is always a good practice, since those ww's probably got wet before you got them.
I have heard (haven't tried, but am inclined to believe) that SimpleGreen is a good solvent for removing road grime. If it were me, I'd be inclined to try a soak in that first. It's far nicer to use than solvents anyway. Others here may have more input on that, and you may wish to do a search for "SimpleGreen" and see what turns up. Good luck.
Well, I must say you put that quite flatteringly! Glad to see progress being made. A friend of mine used to say "Any progress is GOOD progress!" while pouring ingots. I think that more than holds true here.Again thanks a ton for your clear concise extremely well put together and very well dictated (correct word, I dunno?) help. you are right up there with the most helpful and kind member of any forum I have ever participated in.
Keep up the good work, and let us know how it goes.
sagacious
1) Acutely insightful and wise
2) Skillful in statecraft or management
Great screen name. This thread was truly a great display of information, wisdom and patience, too.
Well done, "saggy."
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